Hello everyone. So question standing of title is it worth building tokens without the support of green? I am kinda building an esper token deck and it's not coming together right. I currently don't have a token EDH deck and I would like to build one but it's kinda out of my range of expertise.
My Sydri, Galvanic Genius deck inadvertently ended up being a token deck. Not dedicated, but most of the cards I've suggested here are in my build. It's lots of fun.
Imo, if you are trying to build a dedicated token deck without green, you are losing out on some powerful cards that green offers that enhance a token gameplan: Beastmaster Ascension, Overrun, Pathbreaker Ibex, Craterhoof Behemoth, etc. These cards help push through damage as you try to go wide and win with tokens. Im not saying that other token decks arent viable, its just that your deck will lack that explosive damage punch that green can offer. Another reason that this explosive damage is often needed is that a token deck is very susceptible to board wipes. The longer it takes to build a critical mass of tokens, the longer your opponents have to react/wipe your board.
Non-green tokens works fine, but you're probably going to find that you have more success if focus on a particular subset of token makers rather than just shoving all of the most efficient ones into a deck. If you want to attack with them, I like the above suggestion of artifact tokens. Thopters getting evasion by default is super helpful for aggressive tokens, and having access to all of the artifact anthem effects to supplement the white ones. Zombies would be another possibility. There's an abundance of good zombie token producers and the tribal support has buffs and evasion to help make up for the loss of overruns and the like.
You can use tokens as a resource instead of swarm attackers too. In esper, Ertai, the Corrupted can turn them into counterspells. Phyrexian Altar or Ashnod's Altar turn them into mana. Martyr's Cause and Fanatical Devotion turn them into defense (beyond just using them as chump blockers). Attrition or any of the above paired with Grave Pact effects can make them removal. It's going to come across as more of a grindy control deck or a combo deck, but it can still focus around tokens.
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You can always just run Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet in a completely normal Mono-black deck. Get him out early and then, when the first wrath falls, you'll suddenly be swimming in zombies for basically no commitment in your other 99 cards.
I want to give a shout out to my most competitive deck, Jazal Goldmane. Contrary to popular belief, mono-white is very strong on its own with plenty to ramp, draw, tutor, and recur. Play some key instant-speed token generators alongside your good-stuff cards and you've got a hell of an explosive commander, often knocking out every opponent in one swoop.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
The problem with playing tokens without Green is answering the question of, "how do I want to win?" A typical problem I see when people are making token decks is that the goal of the deck is to "make as many tokens as possible" and not "to win the game." Even if you have a crazy number of tokens in play (say, like 40), that doesn't necessarily equate to winning the game. I think this usually produces the feeling you're talking about of the deck not coming together.
Green has a lot of solutions to this problem with cards like Craterhoof, Beastmaster's, Kamahl, and other overrun effects. Without Green, you lose access to those effects.
White gives you access to Glorious Anthem effects and other AoE buffs (stuff like Great Teacher's Decree). However, I personally don't think these effects are strong enough. They... function, but don't have as much oomph as a Craterhoof, Beastmaster's, or Overrun would, so you're functionally just playing a gimped deck. Cathar's Crusade is strangely probably the most impactful White way to pump a board.
That said, White has a lot of cards that generate tokens consistently over time. Planeswalkers, for example, or cards like Sacred Mesa. You can get a lot of value out of these cards, but it requires playing a more control-oriented game than what you might encounter from a typical token deck. You might, for example, play more board clears than you otherwise would in a token deck with the certainty that you can recover much faster than your opponents.
In other colors, like others have mentioned, you have cards like Opposition or Purph to benefit from making lots of tokens. But again, the feel of decks focused this way would be different, like lockdown or combo respectively.
Ultimately it depends a lot on what kind of play experience you're trying to get out of your deck.
Queen Marchesa works; she doesn't always produce tokens, but the card advantage is pretty good if she doesn't. Plus these colors have access to just about every card relevant to tokens that isn't green.
So, I'd like to hear again from OP. There's a lot of options been given here. Did you have a particular focus in mind, or a particular commander? I think we've given a pretty good range of options here, maybe we could help refine the choices a little further and give some specific advice.
@TetzaHexloq-I was kinda leaning into Breya or Sydri artifact token deck or a U/G artifact token deck.
@toctheyounger77-Like I told TetzaHexlog I was leaning to Breya/Sydri or U/G with Rashmi. But something Weebo said struck a cord with me. I hadn't thought of what to do after making the tokens at all. I never thought of how the deck will end up winning in the end. I really want to make a Breya deck so I am more leaning toward her but I need to figure out the tokens are for or how they help.
@Hermes_-I was thinking of using the tokens to fule a stax/grave pact engine.
@ArkthePieKing- Thank you for all the card suggestions I will have to keep them in mind as I work on this idea.
@JohnnyDegenerate-I am sorry I don't want to make a Talrand deck as someone in my meta already has one.
@WWWolfe-Yeah Doubleing season and the cards like it are why I wonder if green is the better choice.
@Kisoji-Yes I am seeing that. Getting the tokens to critical mass without help of some of the auto green killer cards is hard. I might have to set up a kind of use or engine to use them for the kill.
@ashrog-Yeah I like the options that red gives including Vicious Shadows. With enough tokens you don't even have to attack people to kill them.
@Weebo-I have to thank you Weebo. Your advice is always helpful and brings up something I hadn't thought of yet like using the tokens as engine parts to achieve a greater goal with them. That said I don't mind grindy combo/control decks and I feel Breya could really push that thopter token control to neat place.
@Gashnaw-As I have said before I am more leaning to Breya/Sydri/Rashmi but thank you for the input.
@Anachronity-For right now I would like to avoid a mono black deck but thank you for the suggestions.
@daugarten-For mono white I am leaning more to Nahiri go go Kor tokens
@hyalapterouslemur-Haha Thank you for the list I didn't realize there where so many good token decks that don't have green in them.
@Darcykun-You have made me realized I had not asked myself the important question of how the deck will win. I had only thought so far to make a lot of tokens, do something, profit. I think you and Weebo are right in that the deck will shift from tokens as the beatdown for the win to something more along the lines of tokens control the board/keep me alive/vaule engine and hold off for a combo to win with.
@toctheyounger77-Like I told TetzaHexlog I was leaning to Breya/Sydri or U/G with Rashmi. But something Weebo said struck a cord with me. I hadn't thought of what to do after making the tokens at all. I never thought of how the deck will end up winning in the end. I really want to make a Breya deck so I am more leaning toward her but I need to figure out the tokens are for or how they help.
It's not enough just to spam an army out, you need to have a win-con. That should be very doable with Breya.
@toctheyounger77-Like I told TetzaHexlog I was leaning to Breya/Sydri or U/G with Rashmi. But something Weebo said struck a cord with me. I hadn't thought of what to do after making the tokens at all. I never thought of how the deck will end up winning in the end. I really want to make a Breya deck so I am more leaning toward her but I need to figure out the tokens are for or how they help.
It's not enough just to spam an army out, you need to have a win-con. That should be very doable with Breya.
Yes I would like to use Breya combos of deathmantle/displacer and /KCI/AAlter combo and maybe one more for back up. (That way they both cant get snipped with removal) Then I could use the tokens to full cards like skull clamp/opposition to get to that point in the game.
U/x has minimal support outside of artifact manipulation. I'd consider cards like Coastal Piracy, Bident of Thassa, Levitation to support your tokens along with Fabricate variants to get your artifact token makers and support.
U/x has minimal support outside of artifact manipulation. I'd consider cards like Coastal Piracy, Bident of Thassa, Levitation to support your tokens along with Fabricate variants to get your artifact token makers and support.
Wow thank you for the indepth response there with tons of options and roads to victory. After reading thru your post I have to ask you what would you do if you could run Saskia as the commander I think she would make for a very powerful token commander.
For the most part, extremely well said. I must respectfully disagree that blue doesn't have uses for your tokens or can't do them. Opposition has already been mentioned, but often as not, blue tokens tend to fly. In that case, there are a number of anthems that are good with flyers, gravitational shift probably best among them.
Also, for blue generals that are token based you have the aforementioned there is the aforementioned talrand, sky summoner. However, an often overlooked general is meloku the clouded mirror. It doesn't take long for meloku to go nuts just making a few tokens here and there and there are cards that are good enough to run in mono color, as is, that combo well with him.
Using meloku, you can even do artifact token stax, as has been mentioned, because it works well with opposition, but also ward of bones or similar are quite mean when you can control how many lands you put on the battlefield. It can even get nuts if you run patron of the moon or other good effects with this guy and he's very off the radar. There is even this little old gem that works well with your theme (if you go with it) called storm cauldron. Normally it's a really bad card if you can't ramp ahead, but well, if you're trying to tell them "no" on how many lands they can have, then this is downright nasty! Even if you don't draw it, beating down with a lot of tokens is doable and it only takes your general (either one here).
Failing that, a good way to win with a token deck in blue? How about a swift upgrade with day of the dragons? It's gonna hurt if you can swing that turn (or stop the wrath that is surely coming the next turn and blue does run a lot of counterspells..).
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My Purphoros, God of the Forge deck is also heavily token themed, but again more about winning with the commander than the tokens.
Ive faced a Jalira, Master Polymorphist deck that was token based.
Also im working on a Brago, King Eternal deck that is token based trying to abuse Opposition and guys that make tokens on etb.
https://archidekt.com/user/71716
My Sydri, Galvanic Genius deck inadvertently ended up being a token deck. Not dedicated, but most of the cards I've suggested here are in my build. It's lots of fun.
Building: Varina
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
White gives you Glorious Anthem-type effects, as well as token-friendly PWs like Elspeth, Sun's Champion.
Red gives you combo-y options like Impact Tremors and Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Beyond that, anything that makes Soldiers or Goblins is fair game!
Building: Varina
You can use tokens as a resource instead of swarm attackers too. In esper, Ertai, the Corrupted can turn them into counterspells. Phyrexian Altar or Ashnod's Altar turn them into mana. Martyr's Cause and Fanatical Devotion turn them into defense (beyond just using them as chump blockers). Attrition or any of the above paired with Grave Pact effects can make them removal. It's going to come across as more of a grindy control deck or a combo deck, but it can still focus around tokens.
Ghoulcaller Gisa can be pretty good as well.
I know Blue.black has access to Faeries with Oona, Queen of the Fae
And White Soldiers or cats also works.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
You can also run cards like Bad Moon and Ascendant Evincar if you want to go wide.
- Rabid Wombat
W Kemba, Kha Regent, Darien, King of Kjeldor, Odric, Master Tactician, Jazal Goldmane (Token is very much a white strategy.)
U Talrand, Sky Summoner
B Ghoulcaller Gisa
R Purphoros, God of the Forge, Krenko, Mob Boss
WU Kangee, Aerie Keeper, Ephara, God of the Polis
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae, Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
BR Wort, Boggart Auntie
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
UR (Okay, I got nothin.)
RW Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran, Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer
WUB Ertai, the Corrupted
UBR (Okay, I got nothin.)
RWB (Okay, I got nothin.)
URW (Okay, I got nothin.)
WUBR Breya, Etherium Shaper
On phasing:
Green has a lot of solutions to this problem with cards like Craterhoof, Beastmaster's, Kamahl, and other overrun effects. Without Green, you lose access to those effects.
White gives you access to Glorious Anthem effects and other AoE buffs (stuff like Great Teacher's Decree). However, I personally don't think these effects are strong enough. They... function, but don't have as much oomph as a Craterhoof, Beastmaster's, or Overrun would, so you're functionally just playing a gimped deck. Cathar's Crusade is strangely probably the most impactful White way to pump a board.
That said, White has a lot of cards that generate tokens consistently over time. Planeswalkers, for example, or cards like Sacred Mesa. You can get a lot of value out of these cards, but it requires playing a more control-oriented game than what you might encounter from a typical token deck. You might, for example, play more board clears than you otherwise would in a token deck with the certainty that you can recover much faster than your opponents.
In other colors, like others have mentioned, you have cards like Opposition or Purph to benefit from making lots of tokens. But again, the feel of decks focused this way would be different, like lockdown or combo respectively.
Ultimately it depends a lot on what kind of play experience you're trying to get out of your deck.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Queen Marchesa works; she doesn't always produce tokens, but the card advantage is pretty good if she doesn't. Plus these colors have access to just about every card relevant to tokens that isn't green.
- Rabid Wombat
@toctheyounger77-Like I told TetzaHexlog I was leaning to Breya/Sydri or U/G with Rashmi. But something Weebo said struck a cord with me. I hadn't thought of what to do after making the tokens at all. I never thought of how the deck will end up winning in the end. I really want to make a Breya deck so I am more leaning toward her but I need to figure out the tokens are for or how they help.
@Hermes_-I was thinking of using the tokens to fule a stax/grave pact engine.
@ArkthePieKing- Thank you for all the card suggestions I will have to keep them in mind as I work on this idea.
@JohnnyDegenerate-I am sorry I don't want to make a Talrand deck as someone in my meta already has one.
@WWWolfe-Yeah Doubleing season and the cards like it are why I wonder if green is the better choice.
@Kisoji-Yes I am seeing that. Getting the tokens to critical mass without help of some of the auto green killer cards is hard. I might have to set up a kind of use or engine to use them for the kill.
@ashrog-Yeah I like the options that red gives including Vicious Shadows. With enough tokens you don't even have to attack people to kill them.
@Weebo-I have to thank you Weebo. Your advice is always helpful and brings up something I hadn't thought of yet like using the tokens as engine parts to achieve a greater goal with them. That said I don't mind grindy combo/control decks and I feel Breya could really push that thopter token control to neat place.
@Gashnaw-As I have said before I am more leaning to Breya/Sydri/Rashmi but thank you for the input.
@Anachronity-For right now I would like to avoid a mono black deck but thank you for the suggestions.
@daugarten-For mono white I am leaning more to Nahiri go go Kor tokens
@hyalapterouslemur-Haha Thank you for the list I didn't realize there where so many good token decks that don't have green in them.
@Darcykun-You have made me realized I had not asked myself the important question of how the deck will win. I had only thought so far to make a lot of tokens, do something, profit. I think you and Weebo are right in that the deck will shift from tokens as the beatdown for the win to something more along the lines of tokens control the board/keep me alive/vaule engine and hold off for a combo to win with.
It's not enough just to spam an army out, you need to have a win-con. That should be very doable with Breya.
Yes I would like to use Breya combos of deathmantle/displacer and /KCI/AAlter combo and maybe one more for back up. (That way they both cant get snipped with removal) Then I could use the tokens to full cards like skull clamp/opposition to get to that point in the game.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
I have a Queen Marchesa pillowfort/stax deck with a token subtheme. The combination of planeswalkers like Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Sorin, Solemn Visitor or Bitterblossom with Jokulhaups effects is rather powerful. You could also probably pull out something like Alesha, Who Smiles at Death with Mogg War Marshal, Beetleback Chief, Siege-gang Commander, etc. I had a Teysa, Orzhov Scion deck that focused on hatebears and Grave Pact effects, an Alesha deck would be similar.
Basically, tokens are great enablers, but the color(s) you use dictate how they will win.
W/x decks can use a combination of Wrath of God effects and noncreature token producers (Sacred Mesa, Elspeth cards) to generate virtual card advantage and wear out your opponents' resources. You also have access to basic anthem effects: Glorious Anthem, Cathar's Crusade, Concerted Effort, Angel of Invention, Angel of Jubilation that can turn white's powerful hatebears into threats alongside your token army.
R/x decks will focus on incremental damage with cards like Purphoros, Impact Tremors, Kyren Negotiations, Furystoke Giant, and Goblin Bombardment. They will pack finishers like Burn at the Stake, Last-ditch Effort, or Soulblast. Your tokens are sources of direct damage in addition to being bodies.
B/x decks have access to powerful sac outlets like Viscera Seer, Attrition, Sadistic Hypnotist, and Carrion Feeder variants that pair well with Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos, and Butcher of Malakir. Here your tokens will be most effective at controlling the board.
U/x has minimal support outside of artifact manipulation. I'd consider cards like Coastal Piracy, Bident of Thassa, Levitation to support your tokens along with Fabricate variants to get your artifact token makers and support.
Wow thank you for the indepth response there with tons of options and roads to victory. After reading thru your post I have to ask you what would you do if you could run Saskia as the commander I think she would make for a very powerful token commander.
Also, for blue generals that are token based you have the aforementioned there is the aforementioned talrand, sky summoner. However, an often overlooked general is meloku the clouded mirror. It doesn't take long for meloku to go nuts just making a few tokens here and there and there are cards that are good enough to run in mono color, as is, that combo well with him.
Using meloku, you can even do artifact token stax, as has been mentioned, because it works well with opposition, but also ward of bones or similar are quite mean when you can control how many lands you put on the battlefield. It can even get nuts if you run patron of the moon or other good effects with this guy and he's very off the radar. There is even this little old gem that works well with your theme (if you go with it) called storm cauldron. Normally it's a really bad card if you can't ramp ahead, but well, if you're trying to tell them "no" on how many lands they can have, then this is downright nasty! Even if you don't draw it, beating down with a lot of tokens is doable and it only takes your general (either one here).
Failing that, a good way to win with a token deck in blue? How about a swift upgrade with day of the dragons? It's gonna hurt if you can swing that turn (or stop the wrath that is surely coming the next turn and blue does run a lot of counterspells..).
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!