1. If your group is generally okay with powerful-type plays, and if you're seeing lots of 4 color commanders, then cards like Ruination and Back to Basics might be a worthy include.
2. If you're playing one of these commanders, and if you're getting blown out by these cards, then there are ways to build your manabase to mitigate the hate.
3. If the 4 color players start changing their manabases to include more basics and fetch in a way that leaves them uncrippled after a Ruination, then maybe the Ruination is no longer the best use of a slot.
So, just like anything else. If you never see any spot removal in your meta, then you can probably get away with not including as many hexproof and shroud effects in your voltron deck. Once you see the spot removal in people's decks, then it's time to counteract it.
And generally, it seems like most groups are okay with the risk of nonbasic hate as a counterbalance to greedy manabases. That was what I was after more than anything.
Am I the only dissenting voice here?
Fact, you can't cast Dismiss and Damnation from the same 4x Basic lands. Fact, if you have 15x sources of each color (about 20x duals out of 40 land), then you have about a 20% chance per color to not make that color in 10 cards. With the full 10x of each basic, your chance of not making a single color goes up to about 35%. Sorry, the most anecdotal evidence I hear that this isn’t a problem as long as you run enough Rampant Growth, the more I will just categorize those statements as coming from the kind of group that does nothing before Turn 4. And as I said, this group has about zero overlap with the groups that are ok with disruption like this.
On that point too, lay down Ruination/Back to Basics, and most players will be wondering why you think you need to do that versus their Atraxa superfriends deck or their Saskia beatdown. If your answer is something like, hey, you named me with Askia, all is fair game, bro, then I suspect that you are cheating yourself and your group out of the kind of games you want to have.
Fact, you can't cast Dismiss and Damnation from the same 4x Basic lands. Fact, if you have 15x sources of each color (about 20x duals out of 40 land), then you have about a 20% chance per color to not make that color in 10 cards. With the full 10x of each basic, your chance of not making a single color goes up to about 35%.
Fact, you can run artifact mana fixing. Signets, Chromatic Lantern, Prismatic Omen, and others all help to keep decks running fine. Fact, fetchlands can fetch out dual lands. That means that your list is going to be much for consistent than what you're talking about. Also, you did nothing to show us that those numbers aren't pulled out of your ass.
Sorry, the most anecdotal evidence I hear that this isn’t a problem as long as you run enough Rampant Growth, the more I will just categorize those statements as coming from the kind of group that does nothing before Turn 4. And as I said, this group has about zero overlap with the groups that are ok with disruption like this.
If that's the only anecdotal evidence you're hearing then you aren't listening to a thing that's been said in this thread. There are artifacts, enchantments, and creatures with all help to fix mana. Along with this like Farseek and Cultivate. None of those give a **** about Ruination.
Secondly, if you're in the type of meta where nothing happens till after turn 4 you're given the kind of time to set up these redundant mana fixing methods without getting killed.
I play in the type of meta you just described. You have no idea what you're saying. Stop talking out your ass about this.
On that point too, lay down Ruination/Back to Basics, and most players will be wondering why you think you need to do that versus their Atraxa superfriends deck or their Saskia beatdown. If your answer is something like, hey, you named me with Askia, all is fair game, bro, then I suspect that you are cheating yourself and your group out of the kind of games you want to have.
This statement assumes that you're not talking to the people in your playgroup before hand. That's not the fault of an inanimate piece of cardboard, it's your fault.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: R8whackR WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
You know why you use back to basics or Ruination vs Super friends? Because Super friends is super mana greedy and it slows down their PW deployment. And YOU are thr one erecting the Strawman of using NBLD to stop Saskia. Obviously you use wraths to slow her down. You can run both...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
You know why you use back to basics or Ruination vs Super friends? Because Super friends is super mana greedy and it slows down their PW deployment. And YOU are thr one erecting the Strawman of using NBLD to stop Saskia. Obviously you use wraths to slow her down. You can run both...
Superfriends gets even better with MLD so you can prevent people from answering them, especially with Red so you can run Obliterate and Decree of Annihilation.
Fact, you can't cast Dismiss and Damnation from the same 4x Basic lands. Fact, if you have 15x sources of each color (about 20x duals out of 40 land), then you have about a 20% chance per color to not make that color in 10 cards. With the full 10x of each basic, your chance of not making a single color goes up to about 35%.
Fact, you can run artifact mana fixing. Signets, Chromatic Lantern, Prismatic Omen, and others all help to keep decks running fine. Fact, fetchlands can fetch out dual lands. That means that your list is going to be much for consistent than what you're talking about. Also, you did nothing to show us that those numbers aren't pulled out of your ass.
Take 40 total mana sources then if you run signets. 34 Land, 6 signets. Or however much of Chromatic Lantern, Relic, Darksteel Ingot, tutors thereof, etc, that you want. Really, pick a number. The math doesn’t change for as many mana sources that you have as much as it does for the fact that you are running 4-colors and have 4 concurrent changes to miss any of them.
Here is the math though for 15 mana sources of a given color, algebra teacher style:
85/99, 84/98, 83/97…75/89, so on, that is the descending chances for any given card to not be a mana source of the given color. Take the product for the sequence that includes a number of terms equal to the number of cards drawn. That’s the chance you’re not drawing a given color, X cards into your deck.
Chances of not drawing any single one your colors (color screw) is the inverse of that result for each of your colors, all multiplied together. With 4-colors, you only get up to about 2/3 chance to not be color-screwed after 10 cards when you get up to about 20 sources of each color.
And to even get that high, essentially all of your lands have to be 2 or more colors, assuming 36 land, because only about 3-4 playable lands in Magic are 5-color, 9 fetches, and the rest only have 2 color. So half of the remaining 24 or so land will always lack for one half of your colors. So, you have 5 slots for basics for each color to have 20 sources among your lands.
TL;DR version, it might “work”, but it certainly does suck. You will either be blown out when nbl hate is played, or you will be dealing with early color screw during a huge portion of regular games. Pick your poison.
Secondly, if you're in the type of meta where nothing happens till after turn 4 you're given the kind of time to set up these redundant mana fixing methods without getting killed.
I play in the type of meta you just described. You have no idea what you're saying. Stop talking out your ass about this.
Ok, I’ll take you at your word. So in your words, why are you playing stuff like Ruination then? Just trying to understand the mentality of people who play 4-color and don’t mind NBL hate.
On that point too, lay down Ruination/Back to Basics, and most players will be wondering why you think you need to do that versus their Atraxa superfriends deck or their Saskia beatdown. If your answer is something like, hey, you named me with Askia, all is fair game, bro, then I suspect that you are cheating yourself and your group out of the kind of games you want to have.
This statement assumes that you're not talking to the people in your playgroup before hand. That's not the fault of an inanimate piece of cardboard, it's your fault.
Or, it’s because you’re playing a game in public and don’t have the wherewithal to clear every card in your deck with them before you sit down. In my experience, all kinds of people play the most recent product. Most people don’t like anything that disrupts their mana flow, and most people also don’t like hate cards that work because of the specific color or colors that their deck happens to be.
Fact, you can't cast Dismiss and Damnation from the same 4x Basic lands. Fact, if you have 15x sources of each color (about 20x duals out of 40 land), then you have about a 20% chance per color to not make that color in 10 cards. With the full 10x of each basic, your chance of not making a single color goes up to about 35%.
Fact, you can run artifact mana fixing. Signets, Chromatic Lantern, Prismatic Omen, and others all help to keep decks running fine. Fact, fetchlands can fetch out dual lands. That means that your list is going to be much for consistent than what you're talking about. Also, you did nothing to show us that those numbers aren't pulled out of your ass.
Take 40 total mana sources then if you run signets. 34 Land, 6 signets. Or however much of Chromatic Lantern, Relic, Darksteel Ingot, tutors thereof, etc, that you want. Really, pick a number. The math doesn’t change for as many mana sources that you have as much as it does for the fact that you are running 4-colors and have 4 concurrent changes to miss any of them.
Here is the math though for 15 mana sources of a given color, algebra teacher style:
85/99, 84/98, 83/97…75/89, so on, that is the descending chances for any given card to not be a mana source of the given color. Take the product for the sequence that includes a number of terms equal to the number of cards drawn. That’s the chance you’re not drawing a given color, X cards into your deck.
Chances of not drawing any single one your colors (color screw) is the inverse of that result for each of your colors, all multiplied together. With 4-colors, you only get up to about 2/3 chance to not be color-screwed after 10 cards when you get up to about 20 sources of each color.
And to even get that high, essentially all of your lands have to be 2 or more colors, assuming 36 land, because only about 3-4 playable lands in Magic are 5-color, 9 fetches, and the rest only have 2 color. So half of the remaining 24 or so land will always lack for one half of your colors. So, you have 5 slots for basics for each color to have 20 sources among your lands.
TL;DR version, it might “work”, but it certainly does suck. You will either be blown out when nbl hate is played, or you will be dealing with early color screw during a huge portion of regular games. Pick your poison.
I get what you're saying, but to a list running 10 fetches and accompanying duals, you're not running 4-5 rainbow sources - you're running ~ 15. It's not a matter of missing lands, it's a matter of pairing your fetches with what you've drawn naturally. That works together with cards like Chromatic Lantern, Prismatic Omen, and Darksteel Ingot (and others) to give you a much better chance of avoiding colour screw. The fact of the matter is that The cards that help you prevent colour screw also help soften the blow of MLD. I play a lot more artifacts (mostly rainbow) in Atraxa. Even some Enchantments, and a creature or two. Diversifying into multiple permanent types that provide mana will lower the impact of NBL hate. And to boot, most of these cards will produce any colour. You're pairing your mana base with these rainbow producers to ensure you've still got mana enough to play the game with after a Ruination and they often fix your colours too.
Secondly, if you're in the type of meta where nothing happens till after turn 4 you're given the kind of time to set up these redundant mana fixing methods without getting killed.
I play in the type of meta you just described. You have no idea what you're saying. Stop talking out your ass about this.
Ok, I’ll take you at your word. So in your words, why are you playing stuff like Ruination then? Just trying to understand the mentality of people who play 4-color and don’t mind NBL hate.
I'm not sure I understand the question. I don't play Ruination in decks with 4 colours, but I let me opponents do so. Like I said, by giving up a bit in the power department, you can gain a lot in the resilience department. For the most part, I've seen 4/5 colour decks be able to compensate for losing the extra slots to mana fixing.
On that point too, lay down Ruination/Back to Basics, and most players will be wondering why you think you need to do that versus their Atraxa superfriends deck or their Saskia beatdown. If your answer is something like, hey, you named me with Askia, all is fair game, bro, then I suspect that you are cheating yourself and your group out of the kind of games you want to have.
This statement assumes that you're not talking to the people in your playgroup before hand. That's not the fault of an inanimate piece of cardboard, it's your fault.
Or, it’s because you’re playing a game in public and don’t have the wherewithal to clear every card in your deck with them before you sit down. In my experience, all kinds of people play the most recent product. Most people don’t like anything that disrupts their mana flow, and most people also don’t like hate cards that work because of the specific color or colors that their deck happens to be.
This is no different than any public game of Commander. It's relative, and I've had people blow up about playing a Wrath of God. You're right. We can't go into each detail. That's not how the banlist or format are being managed though. It's generally assumed that most playgroups are closed. It's not a NBL-specific issue, you'll run into friction in any group.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: R8whackR WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
You know why you use back to basics or Ruination vs Super friends? Because Super friends is super mana greedy and it slows down their PW deployment. And YOU are thr one erecting the Strawman of using NBLD to stop Saskia. Obviously you use wraths to slow her down. You can run both...
Superfriends gets even better with MLD so you can prevent people from answering them, especially with Red so you can run Obliterate and Decree of Annihilation.
Note that we are talking about Non Basic Land Destruction... NOT MLD. Things like Ruination, Blood Moon,and Back to Basics have little effect on the decks that run them...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
What kind of idiot runs 34 land and six artifact sources in anything but low curve 1 or 2 color decks? Leading with that proves, once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are the only dissenting voice because you are the only person who is speaking directly from their poop chute on the topic, Ace Ventura style.
I typically run at least 37 land, plus 6-10 artifact sources. For 4 color, that means lantern, Sol ring, vault, crypt, and 6 signets. Early turns (1, 2, sometimes 3) you mostly throw down artifact ramp or support cards like top. The 4 color dudes can come down turn 3 fairly reliably due to signets, so of course you run all 6 that you can. Arguing that the math doesn't change and then proceeding to ignore artifact mana when doing your math is how idiots do statistics. You don't ignore 1/5 of the manabase of a deck when counting sources. You also ignore how fetches act like 5 color sources by letting you fetch duals and shocks. If I need black and draw scalding tarn, I just got black, and my decision is now whether I want red or blue to go with it. If you're running base green you just need to make sure that you can always hit green so you can hit your ramp. It's like you haven't spent any time building the decks and are trying to argue with people who have by using math that starts with bad assumptions to get the answer you want.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
What kind of idiot runs 34 land and six artifact sources in anything but low curve 1 or 2 color decks? Leading with that proves, once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are the only dissenting voice because you are the only person who is speaking directly from their poop chute on the topic, Ace Ventura style.
I typically run at least 37 land, plus 6-10 artifact sources. For 4 color, that means lantern, Sol ring, vault, crypt, and 6 signets. Early turns (1, 2, sometimes 3) you mostly throw down artifact ramp or support cards like top. The 4 color dudes can come down turn 3 fairly reliably due to signets, so of course you run all 6 that you can. Arguing that the math doesn't change and then proceeding to ignore artifact mana when doing your math is how idiots do statistics. You don't ignore 1/5 of the manabase of a deck when counting sources. You also ignore how fetches act like 5 color sources by letting you fetch duals and shocks. If I need black and draw scalding tarn, I just got black, and my decision is now whether I want red or blue to go with it. If you're running base green you just need to make sure that you can always hit green so you can hit your ramp. It's like you haven't spent any time building the decks and are trying to argue with people who have by using math that starts with bad assumptions to get the answer you want.
Maybe reread what I said. In getting up to 40, I said pick a number. The 40 I was using is 34 land and 6 signets, which a lot of decks still run, even post mulligan change (SRMC, Vault, etc, obviously don’t help with color screw). Yes, these are low curve, highly efficient decks, as in, I’m considering the decks that people might consider running Back to Basics against.
I was also counting fetches as 4-color sources, which is not quite their performance after the first few turns. I even mentioned that tutors for Lantern, etc, could be counted. As I said, pick your number.
The math isn’t affected nearly as much by running more mana sources, given a realistic range for this like 40-50 mana sources, as it is by the simple fact that you have a 4th color you need to access, and most importantly, that the 2-color lands common to Magic only give you 2/4 of your needed colors, versus 2/3 of them, or 2/2 of them. So, you hit a wall where a dual land is only as good to a 4-color deck as a basic is to a 2-color, and a true Basic might as well be colorless.
Yeah, artifacts and basics help out some. And, you can probably expect Blood Moon, etc, in competitive games (which is why I hold that competitive players don’t run 4-color). But if you’re trying to say that you can build a 4-color deck to laugh off Ruination, without being color screwed in half your games, you’re making water on my leg and telling me it’s raining.
To interject into the conversation, I've always felt that it's inappropriate for players to hate on three/four/five color decks with cards like Ruination. Sure, Ruination is an extremely effective tool for hating on multicolored decks, but it's usually just too much. Cards like Ruination in my experience all too often just remove players from the game outright, and that isn't what Commander is about. Playing Commander sometimes means playing objectively worse cards to create a better experience. Casting Flashfires against a mono white deck can be just as big of an offense as Ruination is against a multicolor deck. The tools exist, but that doesn't mean they should be used.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
What kind of idiot runs 34 land and six artifact sources in anything but low curve 1 or 2 color decks? Leading with that proves, once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are the only dissenting voice because you are the only person who is speaking directly from their poop chute on the topic, Ace Ventura style.
I typically run at least 37 land, plus 6-10 artifact sources. For 4 color, that means lantern, Sol ring, vault, crypt, and 6 signets. Early turns (1, 2, sometimes 3) you mostly throw down artifact ramp or support cards like top. The 4 color dudes can come down turn 3 fairly reliably due to signets, so of course you run all 6 that you can. Arguing that the math doesn't change and then proceeding to ignore artifact mana when doing your math is how idiots do statistics. You don't ignore 1/5 of the manabase of a deck when counting sources. You also ignore how fetches act like 5 color sources by letting you fetch duals and shocks. If I need black and draw scalding tarn, I just got black, and my decision is now whether I want red or blue to go with it. If you're running base green you just need to make sure that you can always hit green so you can hit your ramp. It's like you haven't spent any time building the decks and are trying to argue with people who have by using math that starts with bad assumptions to get the answer you want.
Maybe reread what I said. In getting up to 40, I said pick a number. The 40 I was using is 34 land and 6 signets, which a lot of decks still run, even post mulligan change (SRMC, Vault, etc, obviously don’t help with color screw). Yes, these are low curve, highly efficient decks, as in, I’m considering the decks that people might consider running Back to Basics against.
I was also counting fetches as 4-color sources, which is not quite their performance after the first few turns. I even mentioned that tutors for Lantern, etc, could be counted. As I said, pick your number.
The math isn’t affected nearly as much by running more mana sources, given a realistic range for this like 40-50 mana sources, as it is by the simple fact that you have a 4th color you need to access, and most importantly, that the 2-color lands common to Magic only give you 2/4 of your needed colors, versus 2/3 of them, or 2/2 of them. So, you hit a wall where a dual land is only as good to a 4-color deck as a basic is to a 2-color, and a true Basic might as well be colorless.
Yeah, artifacts and basics help out some. And, you can probably expect Blood Moon, etc, in competitive games (which is why I hold that competitive players don’t run 4-color). But if you’re trying to say that you can build a 4-color deck to laugh off Ruination, without being color screwed in half your games, you’re making water on my leg and telling me it’s raining.
So, to sum up your post, a 20% difference in the number of mana sources doesn't effect the math, followed by a baseless assertion (that 34 lands is the norm) followed by false assumption (that only tier 1 competitive decks run non basic hate), followed by a strawman argument (nobody said that 4 color should be able to laugh off ruination et la, just that if you build well you shouldn't roll over to it. It's still going to hurt, just like a creature deck getting hit with wrath or storm getting hit with rule of law, but that is a fundamental part of magic, that your opponents will do things that hurt you). Oh, and you are simultaneously trying to argue that nbl hate shouldn't be run against 4 color because 4 color is non competitive, then try to argue based off of a streamlined mana base for hyper efficient competitive decks, which is asinine. If the deck is built to be hyper efficient, then nbl hate isn't only acceptable, it's needed, and getting rolled by it is the risk they run. If it isn't built to be hyper efficient, then it's easy to build a manabase that doesn't get rolled by nbl hate. If someone pulls out a precon out of the box, then just don't play your nbl hate or ask if you can sub it out before the game. It's cute that you think you no more about decks you've never built than people that have built them. You should probably stop while you're behind.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
To interject into the conversation, I've always felt that it's inappropriate for players to hate on three/four/five color decks with cards like Ruination. Sure, Ruination is an extremely effective tool for hating on multicolored decks, but it's usually just too much. Cards like Ruination in my experience all too often just remove players from the game outright, and that isn't what Commander is about. Playing Commander sometimes means playing objectively worse cards to create a better experience. Casting Flashfires against a mono white deck can be just as big of an offense as Ruination is against a multicolor deck. The tools exist, but that doesn't mean they should be used.
Ofc the tools exist, except Ruination is just a much better card then Flashfires, since most of the time it won't be a dead card. About every deck I've ever played against, had non-basics in them, since a lot of non-basics have really good effects. Ruination is really good getting rid of those effects, that's otherwise pretty hard to deal with. Heck, I even play with Sinkhole just to be able to kill someones utillity land. It isn't all about deying 4/5-color deck their greedy manabase, it's also about getting rid of all those stupid effects tacked on lands.
Ofc the tools exist, except Ruination is just a much better card then Flashfires, since most of the time it won't be a dead card. About every deck I've ever played against, had non-basics in them, since a lot of non-basics have really good effects. Ruination is really good getting rid of those effects, that's otherwise pretty hard to deal with. Heck, I even play with Sinkhole just to be able to kill someones utillity land. It isn't all about deying 4/5-color deck their greedy manabase, it's also about getting rid of all those stupid effects tacked on lands.
It's true that Ruination will usually be a much better card than Flashfires in the sense that it's less often a dead card, but the result is typically the same when either card is cast: someone is gonna have a bad time. I believe that Magic's cardpool is diverse enough that if someone feels like they need access to cards that inhibit their opponents, options can be found that don't outright pluck someone from the game. Things like Ruination just tend to go against the spirit of the format, you know?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
It's true that Ruination will usually be a much better card than Flashfires in the sense that it's less often a dead card, but the result is typically the same when either card is cast: someone is gonna have a bad time. I believe that Magic's cardpool is diverse enough that if someone feels like they need access to cards that inhibit their opponents, options can be found that don't outright pluck someone from the game. Things like Ruination just tend to go against the spirit of the format, you know?
Nah, I'll just keep playing Ruination!
I guess it's just your opinion A lot of stuff pluck someone from the game, like Iona, and still isn't banned. But let's not start a discussion about that.
So, to sum up your post, a 20% difference in the number of mana sources doesn't effect the math, followed by a baseless assertion (that 34 lands is the norm) followed by false assumption (that only tier 1 competitive decks run non basic hate), followed by a strawman argument (nobody said that 4 color should be able to laugh off ruination et la, just that if you build well you shouldn't roll over to it. It's still going to hurt, just like a creature deck getting hit with wrath or storm getting hit with rule of law, but that is a fundamental part of magic, that your opponents will do things that hurt you). Oh, and you are simultaneously trying to argue that nbl hate shouldn't be run against 4 color because 4 color is non competitive, then try to argue based off of a streamlined mana base for hyper efficient competitive decks, which is asinine. If the deck is built to be hyper efficient, then nbl hate isn't only acceptable, it's needed, and getting rolled by it is the risk they run. If it isn't built to be hyper efficient, then it's easy to build a manabase that doesn't get rolled by nbl hate. If someone pulls out a precon out of the box, then just don't play your nbl hate or ask if you can sub it out before the game. It's cute that you think you no more about decks you've never built than people that have built them. You should probably stop while you're behind.
Once again, pick a number if you don't like 40. Run the math again. Then, tell me you're ok with building a deck with an internal fail rate that high, just because you think getting stuck not playing your cards and dodging NBL hate should be part of the game.
I do think getting stuck not playing your cards is part of the game. The mana system is at the heart of Magic. Lots of people don't like it, and those people now have plenty of similar games to play where screw or flood isn't a threat.
I was playing against a monored player the other day who I watched not be able to cast his spells for two games. Between those two games, over probably 20 total turns, I saw him play about 11 lands. And 4 of them died to a Wildfire. 'Way she goes,' he said. We asked how many lands in his deck. He had 34. That's equivalent to 20.4 lands in a 60 card deck. You can do that in Legacy and Vintage and even some Modern decks, where you can run 10 fetches to make sure you get the 2 mana you need to make your deck go. But in EDH? That's absurd.
I mean, this guy was playing mono Mountains, playing Blood Moon, etc, and he still got mana screwed. Should I feel bad about that, especially when his deck construction was so bad? I don't. And I feel exactly the same about nuking peoples' duals and shocks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
That seems like a great attitude to have if you want lots of *****ty games. I had a guy pull this on me once. It ended in me playing a few games with my stax deck that had about 10 nonbasic lands in it. He was woefully unprepared to deal with a deck that locks you out of the game in the first 5 turns. Sure, you may pull a fast one a few times with this strategy, but it pushes the game in a bad direction. The decks that lose the least to these type of cards are the ones that are going to suck the fun out of the game for most tables. I suppose if you play with people that are unwilling or unable to adapt to them, the cards just make the game *****ty for a few people that aren't you.
Bottom line is that playing a game like this to teach the lesson that "getting stuck not playing your cards is part of the game" just ends up in less fun all around. Don't delude yourself into thinking you are doing some great service by forcing this on your playgroup.
Bottom line is that playing a game like this to teach the lesson that "getting stuck not playing your cards is part of the game" just ends up in less fun all around. Don't delude yourself into thinking you are doing some great service by forcing this on your playgroup.
I don't think you should see it as a lesson teached, but rather that landdestruction is a part of the game, and always have been. Otherwise it ends in a differnition of whats fun, and that is impossible to do in this game.
I suppose if you play with people that are unwilling or unable to adapt to them, the cards just make the game *****ty for a few people that aren't you.
Bottom line is that playing a game like this to teach the lesson that "getting stuck not playing your cards is part of the game" just ends up in less fun all around. Don't delude yourself into thinking you are doing some great service by forcing this on your playgroup.
EDH: the format where "fun" is whatever you want it to be, but god forbid if it encroaches on someone else's idea of "fun."
I think crippling greedy manabases is fun. 4- and 5-color decks do not. Someone is going to have a bad time.
Bottom line is that playing a game like this to teach the lesson that "getting stuck not playing your cards is part of the game" just ends up in less fun all around. Don't delude yourself into thinking you are doing some great service by forcing this on your playgroup.
I don't think you should see it as a lesson teached, but rather that landdestruction is a part of the game, and always have been. Otherwise it ends in a differnition of whats fun, and that is impossible to do in this game.
I agree. The issue here is that you are using a strategy that punishes people that intentionally play in a suboptimal fashion. If they wanted an optimized/streamlined deck they wouldn't be playing 4-color in the first place. The people that you punish the most with Ruination are the people that choose to not play with that strategy in mind. It's just like showing up with tuned combo deck in a meta that is full of durdly battlecruiser decks. You are the one with the problem, not them. It's a simple matter to build a deck that is 2-3 colors, very powerful, and does not give a damn about Ruination, but if someone wants to try the new 4-color generals they are opening themselves up to be punished simply for choosing to use the new thing.
I suppose if you play with people that are unwilling or unable to adapt to them, the cards just make the game *****ty for a few people that aren't you.
Bottom line is that playing a game like this to teach the lesson that "getting stuck not playing your cards is part of the game" just ends up in less fun all around. Don't delude yourself into thinking you are doing some great service by forcing this on your playgroup.
EDH: the format where "fun" is whatever you want it to be, but god forbid if it encroaches on someone else's idea of "fun."
I think crippling greedy manabases is fun. 4- and 5-color decks do not. Someone is going to have a bad time.
You completely miss my point. I could find it "fun" to grab people's decks and hurl them across the room. That doesn't mean I am entitled to do that. What this thread is discussing is not whether Ruination/MLD/etc is acceptable, it is discussing whether it should be used to combat people that are already essentially crippling themselves.
If you're not willing to compromise with the playgroup, you are wrong. That spiteful attitude is the problem.
Bottom line is that playing a game like this to teach the lesson that "getting stuck not playing your cards is part of the game" just ends up in less fun all around. Don't delude yourself into thinking you are doing some great service by forcing this on your playgroup.
I don't think you should see it as a lesson teached, but rather that landdestruction is a part of the game, and always have been. Otherwise it ends in a differnition of whats fun, and that is impossible to do in this game.
I agree. The issue here is that you are using a strategy that punishes people that intentionally play in a suboptimal fashion. If they wanted an optimized/streamlined deck they wouldn't be playing 4-color in the first place. The people that you punish the most with Ruination are the people that choose to not play with that strategy in mind. It's just like showing up with tuned combo deck in a meta that is full of durdly battlecruiser decks. You are the one with the problem, not them. It's a simple matter to build a deck that is 2-3 colors, very powerful, and does not give a damn about Ruination, but if someone wants to try the new 4-color generals they are opening themselves up to be punished simply for choosing to use the new thing.
I suppose if you play with people that are unwilling or unable to adapt to them, the cards just make the game *****ty for a few people that aren't you.
Bottom line is that playing a game like this to teach the lesson that "getting stuck not playing your cards is part of the game" just ends up in less fun all around. Don't delude yourself into thinking you are doing some great service by forcing this on your playgroup.
EDH: the format where "fun" is whatever you want it to be, but god forbid if it encroaches on someone else's idea of "fun."
I think crippling greedy manabases is fun. 4- and 5-color decks do not. Someone is going to have a bad time.
You completely miss my point. I could find it "fun" to grab people's decks and hurl them across the room. That doesn't mean I am entitled to do that. What this thread is discussing is not whether Ruination/MLD/etc is acceptable, it is discussing whether it should be used to combat people that are already essentially crippling themselves.
If you're not willing to compromise with the playgroup, you are wrong. That spiteful attitude is the problem.
And everyone has said that it's something best discussed with the playgroup, except for OP whose playgroup already includes a stax and GAAIV. I really wish people would follow the arguments instead of erecting strawmen so they can act holier than thou.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
So, to sum up your post, a 20% difference in the number of mana sources doesn't effect the math, followed by a baseless assertion (that 34 lands is the norm) followed by false assumption (that only tier 1 competitive decks run non basic hate), followed by a strawman argument (nobody said that 4 color should be able to laugh off ruination et la, just that if you build well you shouldn't roll over to it. It's still going to hurt, just like a creature deck getting hit with wrath or storm getting hit with rule of law, but that is a fundamental part of magic, that your opponents will do things that hurt you). Oh, and you are simultaneously trying to argue that nbl hate shouldn't be run against 4 color because 4 color is non competitive, then try to argue based off of a streamlined mana base for hyper efficient competitive decks, which is asinine. If the deck is built to be hyper efficient, then nbl hate isn't only acceptable, it's needed, and getting rolled by it is the risk they run. If it isn't built to be hyper efficient, then it's easy to build a manabase that doesn't get rolled by nbl hate. If someone pulls out a precon out of the box, then just don't play your nbl hate or ask if you can sub it out before the game. It's cute that you think you no more about decks you've never built than people that have built them. You should probably stop while you're behind.
Once again, pick a number if you don't like 40. Run the math again. Then, tell me you're ok with building a deck with an internal fail rate that high, just because you think getting stuck not playing your cards and dodging NBL hate should be part of the game.
I'm getting on you for cherry picking a number that works for you while ignoring that people have told you they built with a 20 percent larger mana base. Cutting out 20 percent of a mana base and saying it doesn't change the math is lying.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
EDH: the format where "fun" is whatever you want it to be, but god forbid if it encroaches on someone else's idea of "fun."
I think crippling greedy manabases is fun. 4- and 5-color decks do not. Someone is going to have a bad time.
You completely miss my point. I could find it "fun" to grab people's decks and hurl them across the room. That doesn't mean I am entitled to do that. What this thread is discussing is not whether Ruination/MLD/etc is acceptable, it is discussing whether it should be used to combat people that are already essentially crippling themselves.
If you're not willing to compromise with the playgroup, you are wrong. That spiteful attitude is the problem.
Similarly, your decision not to run nonbasic land hate to combat greedy manabases does not make you entitled to decide what's appropriate for everyone. Your comparison of nonbasic land-hate and throwing decks across the room is ridiculous, by the way.
Besides, if a playgroup doesn't permit Ruination effects, doesn't that basically take away the self-crippling aspect of running all those colors in the first place?
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Am I the only dissenting voice here?
Fact, you can't cast Dismiss and Damnation from the same 4x Basic lands. Fact, if you have 15x sources of each color (about 20x duals out of 40 land), then you have about a 20% chance per color to not make that color in 10 cards. With the full 10x of each basic, your chance of not making a single color goes up to about 35%. Sorry, the most anecdotal evidence I hear that this isn’t a problem as long as you run enough Rampant Growth, the more I will just categorize those statements as coming from the kind of group that does nothing before Turn 4. And as I said, this group has about zero overlap with the groups that are ok with disruption like this.
On that point too, lay down Ruination/Back to Basics, and most players will be wondering why you think you need to do that versus their Atraxa superfriends deck or their Saskia beatdown. If your answer is something like, hey, you named me with Askia, all is fair game, bro, then I suspect that you are cheating yourself and your group out of the kind of games you want to have.
Yes.
Fact, you can run artifact mana fixing. Signets, Chromatic Lantern, Prismatic Omen, and others all help to keep decks running fine. Fact, fetchlands can fetch out dual lands. That means that your list is going to be much for consistent than what you're talking about. Also, you did nothing to show us that those numbers aren't pulled out of your ass.
If that's the only anecdotal evidence you're hearing then you aren't listening to a thing that's been said in this thread. There are artifacts, enchantments, and creatures with all help to fix mana. Along with this like Farseek and Cultivate. None of those give a **** about Ruination.
Secondly, if you're in the type of meta where nothing happens till after turn 4 you're given the kind of time to set up these redundant mana fixing methods without getting killed.
I play in the type of meta you just described. You have no idea what you're saying. Stop talking out your ass about this.
This statement assumes that you're not talking to the people in your playgroup before hand. That's not the fault of an inanimate piece of cardboard, it's your fault.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Superfriends gets even better with MLD so you can prevent people from answering them, especially with Red so you can run Obliterate and Decree of Annihilation.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Take 40 total mana sources then if you run signets. 34 Land, 6 signets. Or however much of Chromatic Lantern, Relic, Darksteel Ingot, tutors thereof, etc, that you want. Really, pick a number. The math doesn’t change for as many mana sources that you have as much as it does for the fact that you are running 4-colors and have 4 concurrent changes to miss any of them.
Here is the math though for 15 mana sources of a given color, algebra teacher style:
85/99, 84/98, 83/97…75/89, so on, that is the descending chances for any given card to not be a mana source of the given color. Take the product for the sequence that includes a number of terms equal to the number of cards drawn. That’s the chance you’re not drawing a given color, X cards into your deck.
Chances of not drawing any single one your colors (color screw) is the inverse of that result for each of your colors, all multiplied together. With 4-colors, you only get up to about 2/3 chance to not be color-screwed after 10 cards when you get up to about 20 sources of each color.
And to even get that high, essentially all of your lands have to be 2 or more colors, assuming 36 land, because only about 3-4 playable lands in Magic are 5-color, 9 fetches, and the rest only have 2 color. So half of the remaining 24 or so land will always lack for one half of your colors. So, you have 5 slots for basics for each color to have 20 sources among your lands.
TL;DR version, it might “work”, but it certainly does suck. You will either be blown out when nbl hate is played, or you will be dealing with early color screw during a huge portion of regular games. Pick your poison.
Ok, I’ll take you at your word. So in your words, why are you playing stuff like Ruination then? Just trying to understand the mentality of people who play 4-color and don’t mind NBL hate.
Or, it’s because you’re playing a game in public and don’t have the wherewithal to clear every card in your deck with them before you sit down. In my experience, all kinds of people play the most recent product. Most people don’t like anything that disrupts their mana flow, and most people also don’t like hate cards that work because of the specific color or colors that their deck happens to be.
I get what you're saying, but to a list running 10 fetches and accompanying duals, you're not running 4-5 rainbow sources - you're running ~ 15. It's not a matter of missing lands, it's a matter of pairing your fetches with what you've drawn naturally. That works together with cards like Chromatic Lantern, Prismatic Omen, and Darksteel Ingot (and others) to give you a much better chance of avoiding colour screw. The fact of the matter is that The cards that help you prevent colour screw also help soften the blow of MLD. I play a lot more artifacts (mostly rainbow) in Atraxa. Even some Enchantments, and a creature or two. Diversifying into multiple permanent types that provide mana will lower the impact of NBL hate. And to boot, most of these cards will produce any colour. You're pairing your mana base with these rainbow producers to ensure you've still got mana enough to play the game with after a Ruination and they often fix your colours too.
Thanks by the way for breaking that down.
I'm not sure I understand the question. I don't play Ruination in decks with 4 colours, but I let me opponents do so. Like I said, by giving up a bit in the power department, you can gain a lot in the resilience department. For the most part, I've seen 4/5 colour decks be able to compensate for losing the extra slots to mana fixing.
This is no different than any public game of Commander. It's relative, and I've had people blow up about playing a Wrath of God. You're right. We can't go into each detail. That's not how the banlist or format are being managed though. It's generally assumed that most playgroups are closed. It's not a NBL-specific issue, you'll run into friction in any group.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Note that we are talking about Non Basic Land Destruction... NOT MLD. Things like Ruination, Blood Moon,and Back to Basics have little effect on the decks that run them...
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
I typically run at least 37 land, plus 6-10 artifact sources. For 4 color, that means lantern, Sol ring, vault, crypt, and 6 signets. Early turns (1, 2, sometimes 3) you mostly throw down artifact ramp or support cards like top. The 4 color dudes can come down turn 3 fairly reliably due to signets, so of course you run all 6 that you can. Arguing that the math doesn't change and then proceeding to ignore artifact mana when doing your math is how idiots do statistics. You don't ignore 1/5 of the manabase of a deck when counting sources. You also ignore how fetches act like 5 color sources by letting you fetch duals and shocks. If I need black and draw scalding tarn, I just got black, and my decision is now whether I want red or blue to go with it. If you're running base green you just need to make sure that you can always hit green so you can hit your ramp. It's like you haven't spent any time building the decks and are trying to argue with people who have by using math that starts with bad assumptions to get the answer you want.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Maybe reread what I said. In getting up to 40, I said pick a number. The 40 I was using is 34 land and 6 signets, which a lot of decks still run, even post mulligan change (SRMC, Vault, etc, obviously don’t help with color screw). Yes, these are low curve, highly efficient decks, as in, I’m considering the decks that people might consider running Back to Basics against.
I was also counting fetches as 4-color sources, which is not quite their performance after the first few turns. I even mentioned that tutors for Lantern, etc, could be counted. As I said, pick your number.
The math isn’t affected nearly as much by running more mana sources, given a realistic range for this like 40-50 mana sources, as it is by the simple fact that you have a 4th color you need to access, and most importantly, that the 2-color lands common to Magic only give you 2/4 of your needed colors, versus 2/3 of them, or 2/2 of them. So, you hit a wall where a dual land is only as good to a 4-color deck as a basic is to a 2-color, and a true Basic might as well be colorless.
Yeah, artifacts and basics help out some. And, you can probably expect Blood Moon, etc, in competitive games (which is why I hold that competitive players don’t run 4-color). But if you’re trying to say that you can build a 4-color deck to laugh off Ruination, without being color screwed in half your games, you’re making water on my leg and telling me it’s raining.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
So, to sum up your post, a 20% difference in the number of mana sources doesn't effect the math, followed by a baseless assertion (that 34 lands is the norm) followed by false assumption (that only tier 1 competitive decks run non basic hate), followed by a strawman argument (nobody said that 4 color should be able to laugh off ruination et la, just that if you build well you shouldn't roll over to it. It's still going to hurt, just like a creature deck getting hit with wrath or storm getting hit with rule of law, but that is a fundamental part of magic, that your opponents will do things that hurt you). Oh, and you are simultaneously trying to argue that nbl hate shouldn't be run against 4 color because 4 color is non competitive, then try to argue based off of a streamlined mana base for hyper efficient competitive decks, which is asinine. If the deck is built to be hyper efficient, then nbl hate isn't only acceptable, it's needed, and getting rolled by it is the risk they run. If it isn't built to be hyper efficient, then it's easy to build a manabase that doesn't get rolled by nbl hate. If someone pulls out a precon out of the box, then just don't play your nbl hate or ask if you can sub it out before the game. It's cute that you think you no more about decks you've never built than people that have built them. You should probably stop while you're behind.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Ofc the tools exist, except Ruination is just a much better card then Flashfires, since most of the time it won't be a dead card. About every deck I've ever played against, had non-basics in them, since a lot of non-basics have really good effects. Ruination is really good getting rid of those effects, that's otherwise pretty hard to deal with. Heck, I even play with Sinkhole just to be able to kill someones utillity land. It isn't all about deying 4/5-color deck their greedy manabase, it's also about getting rid of all those stupid effects tacked on lands.
Might I suggest something like From the Ashes then?
It's true that Ruination will usually be a much better card than Flashfires in the sense that it's less often a dead card, but the result is typically the same when either card is cast: someone is gonna have a bad time. I believe that Magic's cardpool is diverse enough that if someone feels like they need access to cards that inhibit their opponents, options can be found that don't outright pluck someone from the game. Things like Ruination just tend to go against the spirit of the format, you know?
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Nah, I'll just keep playing Ruination!
I guess it's just your opinion A lot of stuff pluck someone from the game, like Iona, and still isn't banned. But let's not start a discussion about that.
Once again, pick a number if you don't like 40. Run the math again. Then, tell me you're ok with building a deck with an internal fail rate that high, just because you think getting stuck not playing your cards and dodging NBL hate should be part of the game.
I was playing against a monored player the other day who I watched not be able to cast his spells for two games. Between those two games, over probably 20 total turns, I saw him play about 11 lands. And 4 of them died to a Wildfire. 'Way she goes,' he said. We asked how many lands in his deck. He had 34. That's equivalent to 20.4 lands in a 60 card deck. You can do that in Legacy and Vintage and even some Modern decks, where you can run 10 fetches to make sure you get the 2 mana you need to make your deck go. But in EDH? That's absurd.
I mean, this guy was playing mono Mountains, playing Blood Moon, etc, and he still got mana screwed. Should I feel bad about that, especially when his deck construction was so bad? I don't. And I feel exactly the same about nuking peoples' duals and shocks.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Bottom line is that playing a game like this to teach the lesson that "getting stuck not playing your cards is part of the game" just ends up in less fun all around. Don't delude yourself into thinking you are doing some great service by forcing this on your playgroup.
I don't think you should see it as a lesson teached, but rather that landdestruction is a part of the game, and always have been. Otherwise it ends in a differnition of whats fun, and that is impossible to do in this game.
EDH: the format where "fun" is whatever you want it to be, but god forbid if it encroaches on someone else's idea of "fun."
I think crippling greedy manabases is fun. 4- and 5-color decks do not. Someone is going to have a bad time.
I agree. The issue here is that you are using a strategy that punishes people that intentionally play in a suboptimal fashion. If they wanted an optimized/streamlined deck they wouldn't be playing 4-color in the first place. The people that you punish the most with Ruination are the people that choose to not play with that strategy in mind. It's just like showing up with tuned combo deck in a meta that is full of durdly battlecruiser decks. You are the one with the problem, not them. It's a simple matter to build a deck that is 2-3 colors, very powerful, and does not give a damn about Ruination, but if someone wants to try the new 4-color generals they are opening themselves up to be punished simply for choosing to use the new thing.
You completely miss my point. I could find it "fun" to grab people's decks and hurl them across the room. That doesn't mean I am entitled to do that. What this thread is discussing is not whether Ruination/MLD/etc is acceptable, it is discussing whether it should be used to combat people that are already essentially crippling themselves.
If you're not willing to compromise with the playgroup, you are wrong. That spiteful attitude is the problem.
And everyone has said that it's something best discussed with the playgroup, except for OP whose playgroup already includes a stax and GAAIV. I really wish people would follow the arguments instead of erecting strawmen so they can act holier than thou.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Killing people who are low out of the blue with that card is one of my favorite things, rather go directly for the kill over the removal.
Similarly, your decision not to run nonbasic land hate to combat greedy manabases does not make you entitled to decide what's appropriate for everyone. Your comparison of nonbasic land-hate and throwing decks across the room is ridiculous, by the way.
Besides, if a playgroup doesn't permit Ruination effects, doesn't that basically take away the self-crippling aspect of running all those colors in the first place?