So I'm building a Yidris Midrange/Control list. I'm looking at this card curiously if it's even good. It's a little slow, but it's efficient and political.
I'm not particularly fond of pumping up my opponents creatures, even if it has a theoretical political upside. The theory of upside is the real problem, as at least Orzhov Advokist gets you a guaranteed immediate payoff if your opponents choose to take the bait.
Even then, I won't ever run either of them, as helping your opponents just isn't a thing I'm into.
I think the payoff is pretty high for the mana cost, just by itself. But where it would really start to pull its weight is with the right support. If you have any other buffs, the counters will scale pretty well, but the counters on their Wood Elves won’t do very much. Also you can use Persist or Marchesa, the Black Rose for some added utility. You can also put them on useless lands if you are running Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, or something else that turns non-creatures into creatures temporarily.
Or as above, you can tamper with their creatures, or just steal them outright.
Even if you fail to hit any of that, you can just kill them faster than they can kill you.
I think the payoff is pretty high for the mana cost, just by itself. But where it would really start to pull its weight is with the right support. If you have any other buffs, the counters will scale pretty well, but the counters on their Wood Elves won’t do very much. Also you can use Persist or Marchesa, the Black Rose for some added utility. You can also put them on useless lands if you are running Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, or something else that turns non-creatures into creatures temporarily.
Or as above, you can tamper with their creatures, or just steal them outright.
Even if you fail to hit any of that, you can just kill them faster than they can kill you.
This is my take on the card. Having control over which of your opponents' creatures get the counters makes it reasonably strong. Buffing a soldier token to 4/4 is much lower impact than Wild Beastmaster, Cold-Eyed Selkie, etc. Even if you don't have any counter or power interactions, tossing counters onto a decent creature is going to be a lot more relevant than powering up a utility creature on the other side of the board.
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You can also put them on useless lands if you are running Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, or something else that turns non-creatures into creatures temporarily.
This is one of the best ideas I've heard about trying to abuse Evolutionary Escalation. I like this kind of out-of-the-box thinking...
As for the question at hand, the answer is that Evolutionary Escalation is probably not a good fit for Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder. It is probably much better suited to a dedicated +1/+1 counter deck that can break the symmetry and is much better at taking advantage of the counters than the opponent. If you are using it to fuel shenanigans and they are just getting bigger dudes with no other side benefit, then the trade-off is well worth it.
Even then, I won't ever run either of them, as helping your opponents just isn't a thing I'm into.
I think you'd be hard-pressed to play a game without ever helping an opponent.
Card seems ok but it's not amazing or anything. When you're teaming up to take someone out it's great, when you're the threat or it's 1v1 it sorta sucks though. 3 +1/+1 counters is an ok bump, and the cost is low, but honestly, even 3 +1/+1 counters isn't amazing for most decks. Seems like kind of a niche card.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
You can also put them on useless lands if you are running Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, or something else that turns non-creatures into creatures temporarily.
This is one of the best ideas I've heard about trying to abuse Evolutionary Escalation. I like this kind of out-of-the-box thinking...
Except it doesn't work, because Evolutionary Escalation targets the opponent's creature, and effects like Kamahl wear off at the cleanup step. You can't animate their land and then target it with the EE upkeep trigger.
Seems good if your group plays lots of the Kingdoms variant, which one of my groups plays almost exclusively.
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Note that if you use it with Willbreaker, you won't get the +1 counters on the stolen creature, since after the Willbreaker trigger resolves, the creature will be an illegal target for Evolutionary Escalation.
You can also put them on useless lands if you are running Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, or something else that turns non-creatures into creatures temporarily.
This is one of the best ideas I've heard about trying to abuse Evolutionary Escalation. I like this kind of out-of-the-box thinking...
Except it doesn't work, because Evolutionary Escalation targets the opponent's creature, and effects like Kamahl wear off at the cleanup step. You can't animate their land and then target it with the EE upkeep trigger.
Perhaps I missed something, as there is no cleanup step on your upkeep, yes? So, untap, trigger Evolutionary Escalation, then respond by turning a land of theirs into a creature with Kamahl, then resolve Escalation. Bam. The counters stay on lands, but the land will only be a creature on that turn. That MAY mess up with your combat step, but if they are blocking with a land it might still work in your favor...
You can also put them on useless lands if you are running Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, or something else that turns non-creatures into creatures temporarily.
This is one of the best ideas I've heard about trying to abuse Evolutionary Escalation. I like this kind of out-of-the-box thinking...
Except it doesn't work, because Evolutionary Escalation targets the opponent's creature, and effects like Kamahl wear off at the cleanup step. You can't animate their land and then target it with the EE upkeep trigger.
Perhaps I missed something, as there is no cleanup step on your upkeep, yes? So, untap, trigger Evolutionary Escalation, then respond by turning a land of theirs into a creature with Kamahl, then resolve Escalation. Bam. The counters stay on lands, but the land will only be a creature on that turn. That MAY mess up with your combat step, but if they are blocking with a land it might still work in your favor...
also, as long as it isn't in a 1v1 situation, you dont HAVE to point your guys that way..
that seems like a genuinely cool gimmick! i'd just be a tad worried that it'll backfire in some way if my opponent happened to have some spell that happened to have awaken on it or some other niche effects..
You have to choose the targets when the ability triggers.
At that point you can't choose a land because it is not a creature (and thus not a legal target) yet and you have no time to activate Kamahl's ability in time to target said land.
Yeah, the trigger for the ability goes on the stack, and you respond to the trigger by animating their land. The most recent ability (animating the land) resolves off the stack making the land/creature a valid target. Then the trigger for the ability resolves and you choose targets.
So I came here to post that you were wrong, but then I looked up the actual rules, and you're right. I apologize! You have to declare the targets as soon as the triggered ability is placed on the stack, which means you wouldn't be able to respond to the trigger to animate the land prior to needing to declare the target for the effect.
Quote from Rules »
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere. #
603.3a A triggered ability is controlled by the player who controlled its source at the time it triggered, unless it’s a delayed triggered ability. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f. #
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority. #
603.3c If a triggered ability is modal, its controller announces the mode choice when he or she puts the ability on the stack. If one of the modes would be illegal (due to an inability to choose legal targets, for example), that mode can’t be chosen. If no mode can be chosen, the ability is removed from the stack. (See rule 700.2.) #
603.3d The remainder of the process for putting a triggered ability on the stack is identical to the process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2c–d. If a choice is required when the triggered ability goes on the stack but no legal choices can be made for it, or if a rule or a continuous effect otherwise makes the ability illegal, the ability is simply removed from the stack. #
603.3d is the most relevant - since it's the same process as casting a spell, you have to declare the targets "on cast" not during resolution, so you'd need to name the targets immediately upon the effect going on the stack.
You can also put them on useless lands if you are running Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, or something else that turns non-creatures into creatures temporarily.
This is one of the best ideas I've heard about trying to abuse Evolutionary Escalation. I like this kind of out-of-the-box thinking...
Except it doesn't work, because Evolutionary Escalation targets the opponent's creature, and effects like Kamahl wear off at the cleanup step. You can't animate their land and then target it with the EE upkeep trigger.
Perhaps I missed something, as there is no cleanup step on your upkeep, yes? So, untap, trigger Evolutionary Escalation, then respond by turning a land of theirs into a creature with Kamahl, then resolve Escalation. Bam. The counters stay on lands, but the land will only be a creature on that turn. That MAY mess up with your combat step, but if they are blocking with a land it might still work in your favor...
The latest point you can animate a land before you put EE's trigger on the stack is the end step before your turn. But the land will cease to be animated during the cleanup step following that end step.
Then on your upkeep, you must choose the target for EE's trigger, and you cannot choose the land that is not already animated. Only once you have already chosen the target would you be able to animate the land again.
You can't even use something like Willbender to change EE's target to an animated land after the fact, because all such effects that currently exist in the game only work on abilities with a single target, while EE has two.
I'm giving the card a spin in Dromoka - somewhat sure that those counters will do more on my (usually) indestructible and trampley/flying creatures than on a random utility dude.
But yeah, as said above, the card is begging to be put in a deck where every other nonland interacts with +1/+1 counters.
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So I'm building a Yidris Midrange/Control list. I'm looking at this card curiously if it's even good. It's a little slow, but it's efficient and political.
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Even then, I won't ever run either of them, as helping your opponents just isn't a thing I'm into.
Or as above, you can tamper with their creatures, or just steal them outright.
Even if you fail to hit any of that, you can just kill them faster than they can kill you.
So many +1 synergies like
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
It would be terrible in your deck
It's for +1/+1 counter cuteness like reyhan, last of the abzan and the above posts here, or just skullbriar, the walking grave
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This is one of the best ideas I've heard about trying to abuse Evolutionary Escalation. I like this kind of out-of-the-box thinking...
As for the question at hand, the answer is that Evolutionary Escalation is probably not a good fit for Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder. It is probably much better suited to a dedicated +1/+1 counter deck that can break the symmetry and is much better at taking advantage of the counters than the opponent. If you are using it to fuel shenanigans and they are just getting bigger dudes with no other side benefit, then the trade-off is well worth it.
Card seems ok but it's not amazing or anything. When you're teaming up to take someone out it's great, when you're the threat or it's 1v1 it sorta sucks though. 3 +1/+1 counters is an ok bump, and the cost is low, but honestly, even 3 +1/+1 counters isn't amazing for most decks. Seems like kind of a niche card.
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This is one of those cards that seems made for Doubling Season or Hex Parasite. Or if you want to be evil, Meekstone where either Seedborn Muse or Heliod, God of the Sun saves you.
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Also the card is awesome with Dismiss Into Dream and Willbreaker.
It's a bummer the ability isn't on a general.
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Perhaps I missed something, as there is no cleanup step on your upkeep, yes? So, untap, trigger Evolutionary Escalation, then respond by turning a land of theirs into a creature with Kamahl, then resolve Escalation. Bam. The counters stay on lands, but the land will only be a creature on that turn. That MAY mess up with your combat step, but if they are blocking with a land it might still work in your favor...
also, as long as it isn't in a 1v1 situation, you dont HAVE to point your guys that way..
that seems like a genuinely cool gimmick! i'd just be a tad worried that it'll backfire in some way if my opponent happened to have some spell that happened to have awaken on it or some other niche effects..
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Yeah, the trigger for the ability goes on the stack, and you respond to the trigger by animating their land. The most recent ability (animating the land) resolves off the stack making the land/creature a valid target. Then the trigger for the ability resolves and you choose targets.So I came here to post that you were wrong, but then I looked up the actual rules, and you're right. I apologize! You have to declare the targets as soon as the triggered ability is placed on the stack, which means you wouldn't be able to respond to the trigger to animate the land prior to needing to declare the target for the effect.
603.3d is the most relevant - since it's the same process as casting a spell, you have to declare the targets "on cast" not during resolution, so you'd need to name the targets immediately upon the effect going on the stack.
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Then on your upkeep, you must choose the target for EE's trigger, and you cannot choose the land that is not already animated. Only once you have already chosen the target would you be able to animate the land again.
You can't even use something like Willbender to change EE's target to an animated land after the fact, because all such effects that currently exist in the game only work on abilities with a single target, while EE has two.
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But yeah, as said above, the card is begging to be put in a deck where every other nonland interacts with +1/+1 counters.
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