Totally meta-dependent. If your meta enjoys combo games, have at it. If they don't, don't.
I would generally avoid it in pickup games, especially your fast combos. If you must run a fast combo deck, at least have a backup deck that's less powerful.
As far as slower combos, I think a lot of players kind of wish magic was in some ways more akin to hearthstone, in that there are high-value plays but there aren't really any plays that say "the first part of the game just became totally irrelevant because I assembled my win-the-game machine." I think games are at their most memorable when the tides of war go back and forth, not when one player suddenly wins out of nowhere.
Of course, different people have different opinions, and different players want to play in different ways, so I try to come prepared for anything. Newer players will likely not have this awareness though.
I will say (since I must always say something inflammatory), I think if you're building your decks around popular, well-known combos then you're a boring person and you should go play standard or something where a lack of creativity is a virtue instead of a crippling weakness. An Azami deck that wins with mind over matter? Wow, leave some originality for the rest of us.
Much like most others here, I don't mind the *idea* of combos or seeing an occasional one. Best combos (and some of the most memorable EDH moments) are those that you realize existing only upon having the cards in your hand or board. Accidental combos, if you will - then it's actually hard to keep that grin off your face. However... there is a big difference when a game-ending combo happens - on turn three or turn fifteen.
Thankfully I play in a meta where tutor into tutor into 'oops I win' is rare as chickens' teeth.
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Combos are a part of the game. Tutors are a part of the game. However, you don't have to tutor up the same two card combos every time we play to enjoy the game.
I try to stop the most common forms of combo as part of my deck building process. As has been said before, instant speed spot removal is undervalued. So is graveyard hate. I don't have the exact numbers, but something like 75% or more of the infinite combos you can play in commander involve reusing the graveyard at some point. Sure, graveyard hate and instant speed spot removal won't stop every combo, but it really limits which combos can actually go off.
In my mono black Ghoulcaller Gisa deck, I don't even play Trike with Mike because Trike doesn't fit the flavor of the deck. I do play Nim Deathmantle + Ashnod's Altar though because they are on flavor. I have Rings of Brighthearth, which works with about 30 different cards in my deck, as well as Basalt Monolith (infinite colorless) and Deserted Temple. Deserted Temple can filter the colorless mana into B for me, or can combo with Cabal Coffers/Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx when they produce 6+ mana. Those cards are all good on their own and combo out when put together. However, I have never used Expedition Map to find Deserted Temple because there are far better targets to look for at any given point in the game, such as Coffers, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage and more.
I use my early tutors to find fast mana or a consistent card draw engine so I can ramp up or ensure I don't run out of gas as the game goes along. I only use my tutors to find a missing part of a combo once I have established the rest of my board state and am looking for a way to end things.
When I sit down any given weekend to play, I let the deck tell me how we are going to try to win rather than force a specific line. Sometimes I break Dark Depths and attack with my 20/20 flyer. Sometimes I cast a mass discard effect on one player, drop Sorin Markov, set another player to 10 life, attack them for lethal out of nowhere, then leave the final player scrambling. The player hit with mass discard is often knocked out for a good three turns which buys me time to find a way to clean up the table. Another game I will just get infinite mana and drain the table. Another game I will Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle an infinite token army. Yet another game my commander might simply be able to churn out an army of zombies faster than anyone can deal with thanks to the help of Lashwrithe. I don't think I have ever won the same way twice in one weekend, nor do I win every game... but I still have combos that can win and there are no hard feelings at the table.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I still pack combos in my decks as a way out, but I've pretty much eliminated tutors from most of my decks except for specific decks that need them for flavor or some weird interaction. I think that the real culprit is tutor and fast mana, not combo per say.
I try to stop the most common forms of combo as part of my deck building process. As has been said before, instant speed spot removal is undervalued. So is graveyard hate. I don't have the exact numbers, but something like 75% or more of the infinite combos you can play in commander involve reusing the graveyard at some point. Sure, graveyard hate and instant speed spot removal won't stop every combo, but it really limits which combos can actually go off.
This. In fact, I can only think of 1-2 combos that can't be stopped either by a Chaos Warp or a Cremate. Right off hand, I can only think of Reset-Reiterate. And, I have only seen that combo maybe 1 time versus all the numerous times I have seen DEN, Palinchron, Mike-Trike, and all the really, really tired ones.
The balance of gameplay in combo metas should go exactly like that. You see Mike-Trike go off one time, you kill Mike with the Undying trigger on the stack. Then, you let that player watch the rest of the game if they have no other win-cons. You see Karmic-Lark go off, you exile one with GY hate after the trigger targets it. Go on with the game.
Some players don't ever want the burden to be on them to run any removal. Just not realistic.
And this thread isn't to complain about control, but to look into the mentality that causes combo to be disliked, and how we, as people who do like combos can help improve the game experience for everyone, whether it be try and teach people how to play around it, how to handle inter-player banter, or suggestions for people on how to tone down.
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
And this thread isn't to complain about control, but to look into the mentality that causes combo to be disliked, and how we, as people who do like combos can help improve the game experience for everyone, whether it be try and teach people how to play around it, how to handle inter-player banter, or suggestions for people on how to tone down.
Here's why people don't like combo:
Combo tells a bad story - especially from the perspective of the other players. They were slugging it out with creatures, removal, combat, maybe gaining ground or losing it, and then suddenly the game is over and they lose. It's like if you were watching Star Wars, rooting for the rebels in each successive battle, and then in the last 5 minutes beings from the 5th dimension show up and explode everyone with a heretofore unmentioned superweapon. If a game of magic was a movie, everyone would think a combo win was a lame deus ex machina that rendered the rest of the story pointless.
How do you make the 5th-dimensional beings in Star Wars work? Well, if everyone knew they were charging up a superweapon, then it feels less like a deus ex machina, and if the rebels and empire were working together to fight against it then it doesn't render the rest of the story pointless. The things that make combo feel less anticlimactic are basically the same - if everyone knows you have a combo, and everyone has ways to interact with it, then it won't be quite such a bad story.
Unfortunately, sitting down at a pickup game, it's hard to ensure people have answers to your combos, but at least if it's a slower combo then people are a lot more likely to have ways to interact with it than if it's a T3 combo, and if it's a combo that takes a turn to warm up you give everyone the chance to untap and use sorcery-speed removal against it. As far as letting everyone know you have an infinite combo, I think if you tell the table you have one they at least won't mind as much if it happens, but there's also a solid chance of them telling you not to play it. Some people just don't want 5-dimensional beings in their Star Wars. But I'd still say that's better than playing the deck and having everyone hate you.
I do wonder sometimes about the whole "combo out of nowhere" thing. I mean, sure, every now and then, the combo player will luck out and have both pieces in his hand, but most of the time, they have to actually work a bit to be able to go off - ramping, drawing extra cards, tutoring etc. How is that any different from preparing for a combat damage win by playing creatures? And, hell, if you see a guy doing these things without much of a board presence, why aren't you considering him a major threat?
In other words, when the Ghost Pirates in Lord of the Rings showed up and ended the whole battle uncontested in Return of the King and saved everyone.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
In other words, when the Ghost Pirates in Lord of the Rings showed up and ended the whole battle uncontested in Return of the King and saved everyone.
Sure, although at least that part didn't come totally out of nowhere, Aragorn did go talk to them in the cave or whatever.
I guess you could argue a lot of combos don't come out of nowhere, that they tutored a few times or drew a bunch of cards before getting the pieces. That doesn't happen every time, though, sometimes it happens the turn you go off, and also a lot of players don't assume someone's getting combo pieces when they tutor (assuming black/anything tutors here ofc, unless it's a newer player who isn't familiar with combos even if you reveal them).
Im not opposed combos but i don't like as many of you guys and gals has said: " Imma just dig for the combo immediatly!". Sure the game is about winning and fun is relative, but i do kinda like a game that drags on for a bit atleast! (roughly worded because of my lack of the english language)
I had a super tight game where i had 16 life, Kozilek, the Great Distortion, Trading Post, Rings of Brighthearth in play and Basalt Monolith on hand with a 1-2 other cards i can pitch to potentially shoal my opponents spells, just waiting to get the chance to get my turn.
I manage to counter the player Cs spell that would kill me and player B. Player B attacked me, of course out of spite, to finish me off but player B asked if he should save me and i said hell yeah! He said: "don't kill me during your next turn if you can win!"
And i agreeded of course, i only needed a land drop to be able to play and activate Basalt.
He saved me, im at 1 life and i drew my card for the turn and it was a land. I played my land, played Basalt and got infinite mana with Rings.
I sacked Kozilek, bringing back Voltaic Key (discarded to protect from a path/swords, obviously!), played the last card in hand and i played Kozilek again to draw 7 cards in total and on the last one i managed to draw Staff of Nin.
Voltaic Key + Rings + infmana + Staff = As much damage as you want.
so i killed of player C and on player Bs turn i killed him in his upkeep or response to whatever he could do, i still didn't kill him on my turn
Sort of a backstabber and yet i wasn't haha.
But thanks to all of these Pieces i could play my combo and win. If i played the old Kozilek, Butcher of Truth i wouldn't have been able to dig and find the Staff and the New Kozilek could MAYBE protect my combo in some fashion.
It was the end of a tight game and we laughed about it.
If i didn't draw that land piece i would't lost against either player.
^That's a fine combo, it takes more than two cards and it involved recurring elements and the luck of drawing the correct piece in a tight situation.
[quote from="Drain Life »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/763364-combos-sin-or-legitimate?comment=39"]
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I think more of the problem is that it is the same story over and over again. As in, you have to pick one movie and just watch that one for the rest of your life. No matter what that is, it will get boring. But play even something like Hermit Druid one time, and it can be cool. I don’t recall anyone ever seeing it for the first time and griping about it that minute. Most players I know, their first reaction to a combo they’ve never seen before is something like, “Oh, Crypt Champion and Saffi Eriksdotter do make a really awesome pair. And you just happen to have one spare trigger left over for that Eternal Witness for Bitter Ordeal. Those cards just fit together like puzzle pieces.”
I mean if you don’t have that mentality, I wonder why you’re playing this format.
The problem is seeing it for the umpteenth time and not being able to do anything about it. But, that’s not a problem unique to combo. You can literally watch game after game end to Rite of Replication. To see a lot of decklists, that’s exactly what a lot of people seem to be doing. It is exactly like watching original Star Wars Episode IV another time instead of watching a new one. I mean the new one wasn’t groundbreaking, but at least it was new. Much less just watching a different genre of movie.
So yeah, I would rather play a game where someone tries to assemble the Station combo than one where the same deck plays Oracle of Mul Daya, steady stream of ETB 6 drop creatures, until someone finds the same old “fair” culprits like Craterhoof, etc. At least the Station combo is quirky. Much less all of the other dozens and dozens of combos that exist in this game that people don’t know about, mostly because too many people for the mainstream “casual” format are not looking for them and would rather shame people who find them than run removal.
I think more of the problem is that it is the same story over and over again. As in, you have to pick one movie and just watch that one for the rest of your life. No matter what that is, it will get boring. But play even something like Hermit Druid one time, and it can be cool. I don’t recall anyone ever seeing it for the first time and griping about it that minute. Most players I know, their first reaction to a combo they’ve never seen before is something like, “Oh, Crypt Champion and Saffi Eriksdotter do make a really awesome pair. And you just happen to have one spare trigger left over for that Eternal Witness for Bitter Ordeal. Those cards just fit together like puzzle pieces.”
I mean if you don’t have that mentality, I wonder why you’re playing this format.
The problem is seeing it for the umpteenth time and not being able to do anything about it. But, that’s not a problem unique to combo. You can literally watch game after game end to Rite of Replication. To see a lot of decklists, that’s exactly what a lot of people seem to be doing. It is exactly like watching original Star Wars Episode IV another time instead of watching a new one. I mean the new one wasn’t groundbreaking, but at least it was new. Much less just watching a different genre of movie.
So yeah, I would rather play a game where someone tries to assemble the Station combo than one where the same deck plays Oracle of Mul Daya, steady stream of ETB 6 drop creatures, until someone finds the same old “fair” culprits like Craterhoof, etc. At least the Station combo is quirky. Much less all of the other dozens and dozens of combos that exist in this game that people don’t know about, mostly because too many people for the mainstream “casual” format are not looking for them and would rather shame people who find them than run removal.
I said it in the other thread, an infinite combo is only okay if it is winning that turn (or at least attempting to) Producing infinite health is not okay as it just stalls the game, does not offer any other benefit. The combo I enjoy is pumping infinite mana into an X burn spell. Aiming for a win.
Combo decks that go off turn 3-4 are also not okay, but mainly due to my PG not having that kin of firepower. We are generally on equal footing.(And then we have evil adam with the power of is decks being annoying as hell)
Ad naseum and hermit druid are win cons but so annoying to see happen turn 2-3 each game. If you are gonna play Try hard magic in EDH, go pay somewhere else.
My personal emotions towards combos is kind of two-fold; I personally love convoluted combos, and have played quite a few myself (looking at you, 5c reaper-king tribal), but I do harbor a little bit of disdain for Two/Three card combos in EDH, but I agree they are useful for ending long boring games. That being said, the second part of my feelings for combos has to do with tutors. If your EDH deck is full of nothing but combos and tutors for said combos, then I do not wish to play with you. Go play Legacy and or vintage. I can tolerate one or two tutors that can also be used for value, but if you are playing the deck to only combo then I wont play with you, or I will deliberately run specific hate for you. As a bit of back story, my playgroup has one guy who plays tasigur reanimator and runs all of the boring combos like mikeaus and triskellion etc. So as such, all of the guys who play white now run rest in peace and enchantment tutors to get it, despite the fact that they too need/use their graveyards. As an aside, its not a "true" combo, but how do you guys feel about Lab Maniac? I personally think the card is boring and uninspired in EDH, but Id love to hear support/lack thereof for him.
EDH games need to end sometime. Some decks, particularly control style decks, may lack in the way of traditional wincons and combos make them otherwise viable. A deck built and designed specifically to combo is obviously on the more competitive side of things than more casual playgroups might like, but a deck that happens to have infinite combos in it is otherwise safer to play.
I don't mind infinite combos. Once it's been pulled off, great, let's start another game (since, ya know, games aren't taking 4 hours to play). I also don't mind hard locks, where it's evident I will eventually lose to a lock I can't break out of. Great, let's start another game. What I find personally annoying are the decks that don't go infinite, but instead take lots of extra turns. Like when someone manages to level up Lighthouse Chronologist guy, or is basically using Seedborn Muse and Vedalkan Orrey to take several actions during their own (and everyone else's turn). You can't justify scooping, but it may be a while before you can determine if you can break the cycle or not. Having said that, it might drive me nuts, but I don't forbid anyone from playing those decks, or frown upon those that do. I just look at them as my primary target and try to prioritize having answers to their problems above others.
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Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
I can only think of 1-2 combos that can't be stopped either by a Chaos Warp or a Cremate. Right off hand, I can only think of Reset-Reiterate. And, I have only seen that combo maybe 1 time versus all the numerous times I have seen DEN, Palinchron, Mike-Trike, and all the really, really tired ones.
Reiterate combos with lots of cards. That's perhaps the combo I've seen the most, typically Reiterate and Turnabout. Also, spot removal and graveyard hate typically require two separate cards, as in your example. Cremate doesn't help against Pemmin's Aura combos or Sanguine Bond plus Exquisite Blood, for example. Chaos Warp doesn't help against Seasons Past plus extra turn effects and a tutor. Counterspells are often a better way to stop a diversity of combos, but that varies too. If possible, I like to have a mix of spot removal, counters, and graveyard hate.
As far as the broader question goes, I like infinite combos. I additionally enjoy playing some games without having to worry about them. That's the great thing about EDH: you can play it so many different ways.
Combo tells a bad story - especially from the perspective of the other players. They were slugging it out with creatures, removal, combat, maybe gaining ground or losing it, and then suddenly the game is over and they lose. It's like if you were watching Star Wars, rooting for the rebels in each successive battle, and then in the last 5 minutes beings from the 5th dimension show up and explode everyone with a heretofore unmentioned superweapon. If a game of magic was a movie, everyone would think a combo win was a lame deus ex machina that rendered the rest of the story pointless.
Great analogy.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
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I would generally avoid it in pickup games, especially your fast combos. If you must run a fast combo deck, at least have a backup deck that's less powerful.
As far as slower combos, I think a lot of players kind of wish magic was in some ways more akin to hearthstone, in that there are high-value plays but there aren't really any plays that say "the first part of the game just became totally irrelevant because I assembled my win-the-game machine." I think games are at their most memorable when the tides of war go back and forth, not when one player suddenly wins out of nowhere.
Of course, different people have different opinions, and different players want to play in different ways, so I try to come prepared for anything. Newer players will likely not have this awareness though.
I will say (since I must always say something inflammatory), I think if you're building your decks around popular, well-known combos then you're a boring person and you should go play standard or something where a lack of creativity is a virtue instead of a crippling weakness. An Azami deck that wins with mind over matter? Wow, leave some originality for the rest of us.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Thankfully I play in a meta where tutor into tutor into 'oops I win' is rare as chickens' teeth.
I try to stop the most common forms of combo as part of my deck building process. As has been said before, instant speed spot removal is undervalued. So is graveyard hate. I don't have the exact numbers, but something like 75% or more of the infinite combos you can play in commander involve reusing the graveyard at some point. Sure, graveyard hate and instant speed spot removal won't stop every combo, but it really limits which combos can actually go off.
In my mono black Ghoulcaller Gisa deck, I don't even play Trike with Mike because Trike doesn't fit the flavor of the deck. I do play Nim Deathmantle + Ashnod's Altar though because they are on flavor. I have Rings of Brighthearth, which works with about 30 different cards in my deck, as well as Basalt Monolith (infinite colorless) and Deserted Temple. Deserted Temple can filter the colorless mana into B for me, or can combo with Cabal Coffers/Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx when they produce 6+ mana. Those cards are all good on their own and combo out when put together. However, I have never used Expedition Map to find Deserted Temple because there are far better targets to look for at any given point in the game, such as Coffers, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage and more.
I use my early tutors to find fast mana or a consistent card draw engine so I can ramp up or ensure I don't run out of gas as the game goes along. I only use my tutors to find a missing part of a combo once I have established the rest of my board state and am looking for a way to end things.
When I sit down any given weekend to play, I let the deck tell me how we are going to try to win rather than force a specific line. Sometimes I break Dark Depths and attack with my 20/20 flyer. Sometimes I cast a mass discard effect on one player, drop Sorin Markov, set another player to 10 life, attack them for lethal out of nowhere, then leave the final player scrambling. The player hit with mass discard is often knocked out for a good three turns which buys me time to find a way to clean up the table. Another game I will just get infinite mana and drain the table. Another game I will Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle an infinite token army. Yet another game my commander might simply be able to churn out an army of zombies faster than anyone can deal with thanks to the help of Lashwrithe. I don't think I have ever won the same way twice in one weekend, nor do I win every game... but I still have combos that can win and there are no hard feelings at the table.
This. In fact, I can only think of 1-2 combos that can't be stopped either by a Chaos Warp or a Cremate. Right off hand, I can only think of Reset-Reiterate. And, I have only seen that combo maybe 1 time versus all the numerous times I have seen DEN, Palinchron, Mike-Trike, and all the really, really tired ones.
The balance of gameplay in combo metas should go exactly like that. You see Mike-Trike go off one time, you kill Mike with the Undying trigger on the stack. Then, you let that player watch the rest of the game if they have no other win-cons. You see Karmic-Lark go off, you exile one with GY hate after the trigger targets it. Go on with the game.
Some players don't ever want the burden to be on them to run any removal. Just not realistic.
And this thread isn't to complain about control, but to look into the mentality that causes combo to be disliked, and how we, as people who do like combos can help improve the game experience for everyone, whether it be try and teach people how to play around it, how to handle inter-player banter, or suggestions for people on how to tone down.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
1 Blood Moon
1 Back to Basics
1 Bloodchief Ascension
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Torpor Orb
1 Hushwing Gryff
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Bind
1 Voidslime
1 Stifle
1 Rest in Peace
1 Containment Priest
1 Dryad Militant
1 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Deathrite Shaman
Beyond that, you can counter things or remove the creatures, but that ends up being more of a team effort to remove any and all offending combos.
Hermit Druid is actually pretty easy to beat, if you're prepared. Other combos, same thing. Storm can be stopped with Rule of Law or Mindbreak Trap. Ad Nauseam is vulnerable to just destroying Laboratory Maniac. "Every turn is my turn" decks (Narset, Enlightened Master, Sage of Hours, Magistrate's Scepter) can be stopped by Stranglehold. Or just remove the offending permanent before it goes off.
Things would be a lot easier if people just played more instants.
On phasing:
Combo tells a bad story - especially from the perspective of the other players. They were slugging it out with creatures, removal, combat, maybe gaining ground or losing it, and then suddenly the game is over and they lose. It's like if you were watching Star Wars, rooting for the rebels in each successive battle, and then in the last 5 minutes beings from the 5th dimension show up and explode everyone with a heretofore unmentioned superweapon. If a game of magic was a movie, everyone would think a combo win was a lame deus ex machina that rendered the rest of the story pointless.
How do you make the 5th-dimensional beings in Star Wars work? Well, if everyone knew they were charging up a superweapon, then it feels less like a deus ex machina, and if the rebels and empire were working together to fight against it then it doesn't render the rest of the story pointless. The things that make combo feel less anticlimactic are basically the same - if everyone knows you have a combo, and everyone has ways to interact with it, then it won't be quite such a bad story.
Unfortunately, sitting down at a pickup game, it's hard to ensure people have answers to your combos, but at least if it's a slower combo then people are a lot more likely to have ways to interact with it than if it's a T3 combo, and if it's a combo that takes a turn to warm up you give everyone the chance to untap and use sorcery-speed removal against it. As far as letting everyone know you have an infinite combo, I think if you tell the table you have one they at least won't mind as much if it happens, but there's also a solid chance of them telling you not to play it. Some people just don't want 5-dimensional beings in their Star Wars. But I'd still say that's better than playing the deck and having everyone hate you.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
In other words, when the Ghost Pirates in Lord of the Rings showed up and ended the whole battle uncontested in Return of the King and saved everyone.
I guess you could argue a lot of combos don't come out of nowhere, that they tutored a few times or drew a bunch of cards before getting the pieces. That doesn't happen every time, though, sometimes it happens the turn you go off, and also a lot of players don't assume someone's getting combo pieces when they tutor (assuming black/anything tutors here ofc, unless it's a newer player who isn't familiar with combos even if you reveal them).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I was playing my stax/voltron/combo ish Kozilek, the Great Distortion deck.
I had a super tight game where i had 16 life, Kozilek, the Great Distortion, Trading Post, Rings of Brighthearth in play and Basalt Monolith on hand with a 1-2 other cards i can pitch to potentially shoal my opponents spells, just waiting to get the chance to get my turn.
I manage to counter the player Cs spell that would kill me and player B. Player B attacked me, of course out of spite, to finish me off but player B asked if he should save me and i said hell yeah! He said: "don't kill me during your next turn if you can win!"
And i agreeded of course, i only needed a land drop to be able to play and activate Basalt.
He saved me, im at 1 life and i drew my card for the turn and it was a land. I played my land, played Basalt and got infinite mana with Rings.
I sacked Kozilek, bringing back Voltaic Key (discarded to protect from a path/swords, obviously!), played the last card in hand and i played Kozilek again to draw 7 cards in total and on the last one i managed to draw Staff of Nin.
Voltaic Key + Rings + infmana + Staff = As much damage as you want.
so i killed of player C and on player Bs turn i killed him in his upkeep or response to whatever he could do, i still didn't kill him on my turn
Sort of a backstabber and yet i wasn't haha.
But thanks to all of these Pieces i could play my combo and win. If i played the old Kozilek, Butcher of Truth i wouldn't have been able to dig and find the Staff and the New Kozilek could MAYBE protect my combo in some fashion.
It was the end of a tight game and we laughed about it.
If i didn't draw that land piece i would't lost against either player.
^That's a fine combo, it takes more than two cards and it involved recurring elements and the luck of drawing the correct piece in a tight situation.
But i agree, Tooth and Nail kinda disgusts me, espeicially when its for the 2 card combo. And im the guy that plays Winter Orb + Tangle Wire + Unwinding Clock + Strionic Resonator deck hahaha.
BUT i do think that sometimes a game just need an end... so its quite relative.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
I think more of the problem is that it is the same story over and over again. As in, you have to pick one movie and just watch that one for the rest of your life. No matter what that is, it will get boring. But play even something like Hermit Druid one time, and it can be cool. I don’t recall anyone ever seeing it for the first time and griping about it that minute. Most players I know, their first reaction to a combo they’ve never seen before is something like, “Oh, Crypt Champion and Saffi Eriksdotter do make a really awesome pair. And you just happen to have one spare trigger left over for that Eternal Witness for Bitter Ordeal. Those cards just fit together like puzzle pieces.”
I mean if you don’t have that mentality, I wonder why you’re playing this format.
The problem is seeing it for the umpteenth time and not being able to do anything about it. But, that’s not a problem unique to combo. You can literally watch game after game end to Rite of Replication. To see a lot of decklists, that’s exactly what a lot of people seem to be doing. It is exactly like watching original Star Wars Episode IV another time instead of watching a new one. I mean the new one wasn’t groundbreaking, but at least it was new. Much less just watching a different genre of movie.
So yeah, I would rather play a game where someone tries to assemble the Station combo than one where the same deck plays Oracle of Mul Daya, steady stream of ETB 6 drop creatures, until someone finds the same old “fair” culprits like Craterhoof, etc. At least the Station combo is quirky. Much less all of the other dozens and dozens of combos that exist in this game that people don’t know about, mostly because too many people for the mainstream “casual” format are not looking for them and would rather shame people who find them than run removal.
I think more of the problem is that it is the same story over and over again. As in, you have to pick one movie and just watch that one for the rest of your life. No matter what that is, it will get boring. But play even something like Hermit Druid one time, and it can be cool. I don’t recall anyone ever seeing it for the first time and griping about it that minute. Most players I know, their first reaction to a combo they’ve never seen before is something like, “Oh, Crypt Champion and Saffi Eriksdotter do make a really awesome pair. And you just happen to have one spare trigger left over for that Eternal Witness for Bitter Ordeal. Those cards just fit together like puzzle pieces.”
I mean if you don’t have that mentality, I wonder why you’re playing this format.
The problem is seeing it for the umpteenth time and not being able to do anything about it. But, that’s not a problem unique to combo. You can literally watch game after game end to Rite of Replication. To see a lot of decklists, that’s exactly what a lot of people seem to be doing. It is exactly like watching original Star Wars Episode IV another time instead of watching a new one. I mean the new one wasn’t groundbreaking, but at least it was new. Much less just watching a different genre of movie.
So yeah, I would rather play a game where someone tries to assemble the Station combo than one where the same deck plays Oracle of Mul Daya, steady stream of ETB 6 drop creatures, until someone finds the same old “fair” culprits like Craterhoof, etc. At least the Station combo is quirky. Much less all of the other dozens and dozens of combos that exist in this game that people don’t know about, mostly because too many people for the mainstream “casual” format are not looking for them and would rather shame people who find them than run removal.
Combo decks that go off turn 3-4 are also not okay, but mainly due to my PG not having that kin of firepower. We are generally on equal footing.(And then we have evil adam with the power of is decks being annoying as hell)
Ad naseum and hermit druid are win cons but so annoying to see happen turn 2-3 each game. If you are gonna play Try hard magic in EDH, go pay somewhere else.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I don't mind infinite combos. Once it's been pulled off, great, let's start another game (since, ya know, games aren't taking 4 hours to play). I also don't mind hard locks, where it's evident I will eventually lose to a lock I can't break out of. Great, let's start another game. What I find personally annoying are the decks that don't go infinite, but instead take lots of extra turns. Like when someone manages to level up Lighthouse Chronologist guy, or is basically using Seedborn Muse and Vedalkan Orrey to take several actions during their own (and everyone else's turn). You can't justify scooping, but it may be a while before you can determine if you can break the cycle or not. Having said that, it might drive me nuts, but I don't forbid anyone from playing those decks, or frown upon those that do. I just look at them as my primary target and try to prioritize having answers to their problems above others.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Reiterate combos with lots of cards. That's perhaps the combo I've seen the most, typically Reiterate and Turnabout. Also, spot removal and graveyard hate typically require two separate cards, as in your example. Cremate doesn't help against Pemmin's Aura combos or Sanguine Bond plus Exquisite Blood, for example. Chaos Warp doesn't help against Seasons Past plus extra turn effects and a tutor. Counterspells are often a better way to stop a diversity of combos, but that varies too. If possible, I like to have a mix of spot removal, counters, and graveyard hate.
As far as the broader question goes, I like infinite combos. I additionally enjoy playing some games without having to worry about them. That's the great thing about EDH: you can play it so many different ways.
Great analogy.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!