It's color intensive, because there are many cheap cards across many different colors that I want to cast. I don't mind if things ETB tapped sometimes, and I don't have the ABUR duals, nor the budget for them. There is a good reason for each of the utility lands I picked. My Breya deck is going to be artifact-focused, and maybe even a dedicated artifact reanimator deck. Academy Ruins provides a way to recur artifacts, and is intended for things like Mindslaver. Desolate Lighthouse lets me loot with free mana, and acts as a discard outlet when I need to set up reanimation. Vault of the Archangel lets oodles of thopter or Pentavite tokens become threatening blockers. And there's always someone with a Gaea's Cradle or Cabal Coffers or some other good utility land that needs removing, so Stripe Mine and Wasteland make it in.
I haven't settled on a list for non-land stuff. I already know I want way too many artifact combos and synergies in the deck. Still working on cutting down that pile and refining the list.
Personally I haven't had any issues with my mana base, have been consistently getting my Yidris out on turn 3-4. Mana base looks something like (deck isn't near me atm):
6 shocks
6 checks
3 fetches
Command tower
Mana confluence
City of brass
Exotic Orchard
Reflecting Pool
4 forests
3 swamps
2 islands
1 mountain
7 utility lands
Do you think the Odessey filter lands are a good replacement for the Ravnica Bounce lands? Been looking over the Breya precon list and I've already got the cards coming to basically revamp the main deck, but the mana-base looks like a natural disaster. I don't think I've seen so many always come into play tapped lands in my life in one place.
I guess I wasn't expecting my first multi-color commander precon to be this much work to spruce up. Started with the 2014 series which was all mono-colored. I figure I can probably cut some of the colored lands to make room for more utility and likely the ones getting cut are either the tainted lands or the shadows lands. I'm going more with the shadow lands at the moment since it shouldn't be hard to get a swamp in play at some point in the game with both battle lands and shocks + basics. I really like the odessey filter lands and hope they print more of them in the future.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Building a mana base is very dependent on your decks strategy. Just putting all the shocks and fetches and then sprinkling some basics on top of it doesn't make a good mana base.
This. Plus it's boring to always run the same cards, even if they are lands. Hell, even the number of each source of a specific color should be catered to your deck... if green is your route to color fixing, you better have more G/X duals to be sure you can cast that Rampant Growth on T2 or that Harrow on T3 reliably.
Building a mana base is very dependent on your decks strategy. Just putting all the shocks and fetches and then sprinkling some basics on top of it doesn't make a good mana base.
This. Plus it's boring to always run the same cards, even if they are lands. Hell, even the number of each source of a specific color should be catered to your deck... if green is your route to color fixing, you better have more G/X duals to be sure you can cast that Rampant Growth on T2 or that Harrow on T3 reliably.
I feel the same as well. Variety is the spice of life which is why I like Commander as a format even if it is usually casual play. The only thing is when I look at land I try to ask if there is just a plane better land to put in it's place, such as with Transguild Promenade. I think with that one I'd rather play a City of Brass or Reflecting pool. Gods, I wish they would have a one unique land limit in modern. The insanity that would ensue would be amazing to watch.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
For my Atraxa I plan to use 6 ABUR duals, 6 Shocks, 6 Fetches, 3 BFZ lands, 6 Checks, Command Tower, Reflecting Pool, Murmuring Bosk, Exotic Orchard, and 6 basics (likely 3 forest, 1 plains, 1 island, 1 swamp). I prefer the checklands over the painlands because I find that the life matters more than the tempo loss of a tapped land, and with the number of lands with a land type in the deck, late game the checks will never enter tapped and they always tap for colored.
This list doesn't take into account all of the nonland mana sources the deck plays; it's just the lands. I don't have all of the ABU Duals either, but, if I did, I would naturally replace the remaining Shocklands with them. Shocklands are a lot worse than people believe they are, but they are practically a necessity for four colored decks. I'd cut all of them if I had the chance. For reference, here's my personal reference for land tiers in 4 color decks:
Always Enter Untapped: Command Tower > On-Color Fetchlands > Off-Color Fetchlands > Exotic Orchard > Reflecting Pool > ABU Duals > Shocklands > Painlands > Odyssey Filters
There is a little bit of subjectivity to this list. Take the list of lands that sometimes enter the battlefield untapped. How great those lands are largely depends on how often you can make them enter the battlefield untapped. That's going to differ on a deck by deck basis, but generally, in a four color deck, that tier list is going to hold true.
When it comes to crafting a four color manabase, I feel as though you basically have 23 auto-includes. Most of your lands are going to have to be devoted to manafixing, and, as such, you're going to want to play the lands which allow you to cast your spells consistently for the lowest cost. The lands that do that the best are these gold lands: Command Tower, Exotic Orchard, Reflecting Pool and all ten fetchlands. That brings you to 13, but because you need lands with two basic types to make the Fetchlands gold, you're going to want to play the full suite of 6 ABU Duals/Shocklands. Those dual lands are already independently good, so it's not exactly as though you'd be giving anything up by including them in the deck anyway. If Fetches didn't exist, you'd still probably be playing them. Those will bring your total up to 19. From there, I would absolutely include at least one copy of each basic land. These will provide your Fetchlands with additional targets, granting you a minimal defense against nonbasic land hate as well as providing you with fodder in the event someone casts Path to Exile on one of your creatures. The advantages of playing the minimum number of each basic should vastly outweigh the disadvantages. With one of each basic your land count jumps to 23 and completes what I believe are essentially all the auto-includes for a four color deck.
From there things are less clear cut. You're going to need to decide just how many lands you want to play for color fixing as opposed to utility. My deck plays 41 land, and of those only 7 are played for their utility (plus or minus one depending on where you think Gemstone Caverns and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth sit). Furthermore, my deck plays a large number of colorless artifacts. As you can see, my experience has taught me that color fixing is extremely important in four color decks, and you probably shouldn't try to get away with playing too many lands not devoted to it. Having said that, your experience may differ, and you may feel you can go straight for utility lands. If the utility lands you want are things like Celestial Colonnade, they're helping you manafix anyway, so that will likely work out for you. If not, you'll need to decide which of the remaining color fixing lands are best for your deck.
Realistically, your options are limited to Shadowmoor Filters, Painlands, Checklands, and any remaining Shocklands or ABU Duals you aren't already playing past the initial 6. You can also slot in anything like Forbidden Orchard if it happens to be conducive to your deck's gameplan. Of all the options presented, I would highly recommend the Checklands next. With the core 23 lands you're already playing, you effectively already have 20 different lands with basic land types. That's going to enable your Checklands to come down untapped often. If you're playing any additional Basics, Shocks, or Urborg, that number will be even higher. Furthermore, if a Checkland would enter the battlefield tapped, but you don't have any way to use the mana it would produce that turn anyway, the downside is effectively mitigated. This mostly applies to the first turn of the game, when Checklands always enter the battlefield tapped. If you don't have any one drops, you aren't missing out on that lost mana. That argument applies to every land that enters the battlefiend untapped under certain conditions, but it's most relevant for the Checklands since they are only more and more likely to enter untapped the longer the game goes on. One of two different basic land types is a very low bar to meet.
If you do not feel that the Checklands are consistent enough for whatever reason, I would choose to include either Painlands or Shadowmoor Filters next. What's best will largely depend on your deck. Personally, Painlands work best in my deck. I need to be able to cast Thrasios on two, Tymna on three, and Shadowmoor Filters aren't going to help me do that easily. Painlands allow you to cast any critical colored spells in the early game for minimal cost while allowing you to tap them for free later in the game when the color is irrelevant. Shadowmoor Filters are sort of the opposite. They allow you to "superfix" your colored mana during the mid and late stages of the game, but usually don't offer you color consistently in the early game, just colorless. If you already have one of each ABU Dual to turn your Fetchlands gold, I would absolutely avoid putting in additional Shocklands to color fix. Shocklands are miserable in the sense that they won't ever allow you to tap for ANY mana the turn they come into play unless you pay the 2 life. Mid and lategame, the color is mostly irrelivant; you just need the mana and not the color. Painlands and Shadowmoor Filters will always give you that.
Whew! That was a lot. I hope that covered everything you might be pondering.
I'm running all the on color ABUR, shocks, fetches, and checks, along with a few any color lands, two or three utility lands, and one of each basic in my Atraxa deck. I'd suggest playing a chromatic lantern as well to help smooth out colors and give you an out against blood moon.
It amazes me some people’s ratio of how often shock lands come in tapped. Essentially the only time I play them tapped is on Turn 1, and only then maybe 60%-70% or so of the time that I don’t have a Turn 1 play. I can’t imagine having that consistent of an opportunity to tax myself 1 mana. Mid game, having a curve that sits between 2-4 mana means that you’re rarely wasting mana. Late game, I will just shock myself automatically because there are activated abilities, and draw spells might give me more cards of different costs.
Also, the most important thing when using Shadowmoor filters is not to sleeve up the full set of 6. If you are judicious with which you use, these are phenomenal lands. What you need to keep in mind with these is to avoid the one with 3rd and 4the most common color, then count if you have any double colors or 1cmc cards for the 3rd and 4th color also. They are close to mathematically inferior, middle game at least, if you never use double off-color or 1cmc colored cards. Just getting any dual with that same off color is better, in that case.
Odyssey filters can be good too, but in the same way, they only really make sense if you have 1cmc cards of those colors or that exact color combination in enough multicolor cards. Of course, count the general in that. If you really just want to play a 4-color general consistently, then Odyssey filters are good, even better than Shadowmoor lands for that purpose. If your main two colors are allied though, like a UWgr deck, you won't need the filter of two primaries, only the WG filter. If you are bUWg though, you'll want both filters.
Check lands are obviously solid also, but not the full set of 6. The principle with Check Lands (and Pain Lands, Future Sight lands, etc) is that you want to make your 3rd and 4th colors as painlessly as possible (pun intended). They’re basically the opposite of Shadowmoor lands that way. Imagine you are playing a UBgr deck and you put in Sulfur Falls instead of Island. It is an Island that 70%-80% of the time you need Blue. So, avoid the check land with colors 3 and 4 on it, then pair the two off colors among the two main colors according to color weights of the multicolor cards, and overall color weights.
The real key though are the Signets and other 2cmc ramp that you use. If you are in Green, great. Breya decks, you probably want to run all 6 Signets. Worst case, you are feeding unneeded Signet mana into your filter lands, or into a second Signet. If in Green, you will probably never need the double off-color signet, since of course, you’ve got Nature’s Lore, Farseek, and maybe 1-2 Rampant Growths. The principle above holds that searching for a Basic is better than a Signet of your 4th color, and possibly of your 3rd color. Making your 1st or 2nd color with that slot is more important.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Honestly with the precons I haven't had much issue with the mana base even after upgrading the rest of the deck aside the lands. I think one game so far I was land screwed but that's about it.
I do need to upgrade them though. Just can't afford the expensive ones :/
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All-Color (3):
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 Exotic Orchard
3-Color (4):
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Crumbling Necropolis
1 Mystic Monastery
1 Nomad Outpost
2-Color (9):
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Prairie Stream
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
Utility (5):
1 Academy Ruins
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
It's color intensive, because there are many cheap cards across many different colors that I want to cast. I don't mind if things ETB tapped sometimes, and I don't have the ABUR duals, nor the budget for them. There is a good reason for each of the utility lands I picked. My Breya deck is going to be artifact-focused, and maybe even a dedicated artifact reanimator deck. Academy Ruins provides a way to recur artifacts, and is intended for things like Mindslaver. Desolate Lighthouse lets me loot with free mana, and acts as a discard outlet when I need to set up reanimation. Vault of the Archangel lets oodles of thopter or Pentavite tokens become threatening blockers. And there's always someone with a Gaea's Cradle or Cabal Coffers or some other good utility land that needs removing, so Stripe Mine and Wasteland make it in.
I haven't settled on a list for non-land stuff. I already know I want way too many artifact combos and synergies in the deck. Still working on cutting down that pile and refining the list.
EDH Decks:
G Jugan
U Budget Jalira Battlecruiser
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
6 shocks
6 checks
3 fetches
Command tower
Mana confluence
City of brass
Exotic Orchard
Reflecting Pool
4 forests
3 swamps
2 islands
1 mountain
7 utility lands
Current sketched out manabase:
1 Ash Barrens
1 Bad River
1 Blood Crypt
1 Choked Estuary
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Command Tower
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Flood Plain
1 Foreboding Ruins
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Godless Shrine
1 Great Furnace
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Isolated Chapel
2 Mountain
1 Opal Palace
1 Plains
1 Port Town
1 Prairie Stream
1 Rocky Tar Pit
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Shadowblood Ridge
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Swamp
1 Tainted Field
1 Tainted Isle
1 Tainted Peak
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Watery Grave
I guess I wasn't expecting my first multi-color commander precon to be this much work to spruce up. Started with the 2014 series which was all mono-colored. I figure I can probably cut some of the colored lands to make room for more utility and likely the ones getting cut are either the tainted lands or the shadows lands. I'm going more with the shadow lands at the moment since it shouldn't be hard to get a swamp in play at some point in the game with both battle lands and shocks + basics. I really like the odessey filter lands and hope they print more of them in the future.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I feel the same as well. Variety is the spice of life which is why I like Commander as a format even if it is usually casual play. The only thing is when I look at land I try to ask if there is just a plane better land to put in it's place, such as with Transguild Promenade. I think with that one I'd rather play a City of Brass or Reflecting pool. Gods, I wish they would have a one unique land limit in modern. The insanity that would ensue would be amazing to watch.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
GRUAnimar, Soul of CreaturesGRU
GWGW Tokens: Rhys,Tolsimir, or Trostani GW
BMarrow-GnawerB
BGSkullbriar, All's fun in the GraveBG
RWBAlesha, Who Smiles at DeathRWB
EDH:
Maelstrom Wanderer
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Underground River
1 Brushland
1 Llanowar Wastes
This list doesn't take into account all of the nonland mana sources the deck plays; it's just the lands. I don't have all of the ABU Duals either, but, if I did, I would naturally replace the remaining Shocklands with them. Shocklands are a lot worse than people believe they are, but they are practically a necessity for four colored decks. I'd cut all of them if I had the chance. For reference, here's my personal reference for land tiers in 4 color decks:
Always Enter Untapped:
Command Tower > On-Color Fetchlands > Off-Color Fetchlands > Exotic Orchard > Reflecting Pool > ABU Duals > Shocklands > Painlands > Odyssey Filters
Not Ranked:
Shadowmoor Filters
City of Brass
Mana Confluence
Forbidden Orchard
Gemstone Caverns
Gemstone Mine
Tendo Ice Bridge
Aether Hub
Grove of the Burnwillows
Horizon Canopy
Nimbus Maze
River of Tears
Tainted Lands
Sometimes Enter Untapped:
Checklands > Battlelands > Shadowlands > Fastlands > Tribal lands
Never Enter Untapped:
Vivid Lands > On-Color Mirage Fetches > Off-Color Mirage Fetches > Tri Lands
Not Ranked:
Temples
Man-lands
Lifelands
Taplands
Bouncelands
Krosan Verge
Myriad Landscape
Transguild Promenade
There is a little bit of subjectivity to this list. Take the list of lands that sometimes enter the battlefield untapped. How great those lands are largely depends on how often you can make them enter the battlefield untapped. That's going to differ on a deck by deck basis, but generally, in a four color deck, that tier list is going to hold true.
When it comes to crafting a four color manabase, I feel as though you basically have 23 auto-includes. Most of your lands are going to have to be devoted to manafixing, and, as such, you're going to want to play the lands which allow you to cast your spells consistently for the lowest cost. The lands that do that the best are these gold lands: Command Tower, Exotic Orchard, Reflecting Pool and all ten fetchlands. That brings you to 13, but because you need lands with two basic types to make the Fetchlands gold, you're going to want to play the full suite of 6 ABU Duals/Shocklands. Those dual lands are already independently good, so it's not exactly as though you'd be giving anything up by including them in the deck anyway. If Fetches didn't exist, you'd still probably be playing them. Those will bring your total up to 19. From there, I would absolutely include at least one copy of each basic land. These will provide your Fetchlands with additional targets, granting you a minimal defense against nonbasic land hate as well as providing you with fodder in the event someone casts Path to Exile on one of your creatures. The advantages of playing the minimum number of each basic should vastly outweigh the disadvantages. With one of each basic your land count jumps to 23 and completes what I believe are essentially all the auto-includes for a four color deck.
From there things are less clear cut. You're going to need to decide just how many lands you want to play for color fixing as opposed to utility. My deck plays 41 land, and of those only 7 are played for their utility (plus or minus one depending on where you think Gemstone Caverns and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth sit). Furthermore, my deck plays a large number of colorless artifacts. As you can see, my experience has taught me that color fixing is extremely important in four color decks, and you probably shouldn't try to get away with playing too many lands not devoted to it. Having said that, your experience may differ, and you may feel you can go straight for utility lands. If the utility lands you want are things like Celestial Colonnade, they're helping you manafix anyway, so that will likely work out for you. If not, you'll need to decide which of the remaining color fixing lands are best for your deck.
Realistically, your options are limited to Shadowmoor Filters, Painlands, Checklands, and any remaining Shocklands or ABU Duals you aren't already playing past the initial 6. You can also slot in anything like Forbidden Orchard if it happens to be conducive to your deck's gameplan. Of all the options presented, I would highly recommend the Checklands next. With the core 23 lands you're already playing, you effectively already have 20 different lands with basic land types. That's going to enable your Checklands to come down untapped often. If you're playing any additional Basics, Shocks, or Urborg, that number will be even higher. Furthermore, if a Checkland would enter the battlefield tapped, but you don't have any way to use the mana it would produce that turn anyway, the downside is effectively mitigated. This mostly applies to the first turn of the game, when Checklands always enter the battlefield tapped. If you don't have any one drops, you aren't missing out on that lost mana. That argument applies to every land that enters the battlefiend untapped under certain conditions, but it's most relevant for the Checklands since they are only more and more likely to enter untapped the longer the game goes on. One of two different basic land types is a very low bar to meet.
If you do not feel that the Checklands are consistent enough for whatever reason, I would choose to include either Painlands or Shadowmoor Filters next. What's best will largely depend on your deck. Personally, Painlands work best in my deck. I need to be able to cast Thrasios on two, Tymna on three, and Shadowmoor Filters aren't going to help me do that easily. Painlands allow you to cast any critical colored spells in the early game for minimal cost while allowing you to tap them for free later in the game when the color is irrelevant. Shadowmoor Filters are sort of the opposite. They allow you to "superfix" your colored mana during the mid and late stages of the game, but usually don't offer you color consistently in the early game, just colorless. If you already have one of each ABU Dual to turn your Fetchlands gold, I would absolutely avoid putting in additional Shocklands to color fix. Shocklands are miserable in the sense that they won't ever allow you to tap for ANY mana the turn they come into play unless you pay the 2 life. Mid and lategame, the color is mostly irrelivant; you just need the mana and not the color. Painlands and Shadowmoor Filters will always give you that.
Whew! That was a lot. I hope that covered everything you might be pondering.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
In search of a foil french Dromar, the Banisher, pm me if you have one you want to part with, also foil Stratadon's.
Also, the most important thing when using Shadowmoor filters is not to sleeve up the full set of 6. If you are judicious with which you use, these are phenomenal lands. What you need to keep in mind with these is to avoid the one with 3rd and 4the most common color, then count if you have any double colors or 1cmc cards for the 3rd and 4th color also. They are close to mathematically inferior, middle game at least, if you never use double off-color or 1cmc colored cards. Just getting any dual with that same off color is better, in that case.
Odyssey filters can be good too, but in the same way, they only really make sense if you have 1cmc cards of those colors or that exact color combination in enough multicolor cards. Of course, count the general in that. If you really just want to play a 4-color general consistently, then Odyssey filters are good, even better than Shadowmoor lands for that purpose. If your main two colors are allied though, like a UWgr deck, you won't need the filter of two primaries, only the WG filter. If you are bUWg though, you'll want both filters.
Check lands are obviously solid also, but not the full set of 6. The principle with Check Lands (and Pain Lands, Future Sight lands, etc) is that you want to make your 3rd and 4th colors as painlessly as possible (pun intended). They’re basically the opposite of Shadowmoor lands that way. Imagine you are playing a UBgr deck and you put in Sulfur Falls instead of Island. It is an Island that 70%-80% of the time you need Blue. So, avoid the check land with colors 3 and 4 on it, then pair the two off colors among the two main colors according to color weights of the multicolor cards, and overall color weights.
The real key though are the Signets and other 2cmc ramp that you use. If you are in Green, great. Breya decks, you probably want to run all 6 Signets. Worst case, you are feeding unneeded Signet mana into your filter lands, or into a second Signet. If in Green, you will probably never need the double off-color signet, since of course, you’ve got Nature’s Lore, Farseek, and maybe 1-2 Rampant Growths. The principle above holds that searching for a Basic is better than a Signet of your 4th color, and possibly of your 3rd color. Making your 1st or 2nd color with that slot is more important.
On phasing:
I do need to upgrade them though. Just can't afford the expensive ones :/