MTG Salvation

I've been using EDHREC to figure out ways to improve my decks without breaking the bank. Lots of popular cards but sometimes a surprising option pops up and it's quite affordable. Anyway, I was looking at Marchesa, the Black Rose and Erebos, God of the Dead when I noticed that Grave Titan was one of the higher suggested cards. I then looked it its stats and it finds itself in so many decks, surprising me.

To me, mana costs are usually 1-4 are setup cards, things that might bring you to victory. 5 mana is a very solid option, but not breaking. 6+ are bombastic plays that should win you the game. Granted, we're in a multiplayer format so there's probably someone with an answer. But that's been my idea of a six drop: it can carry you to victory by itself.

The Grave Titan can surely do this, but there are far more formidable 6 drops in Black alone, nevermind all of the splashes.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Honestly 10 power for 6 mana and potential for building out a good upsize to your board with him every turn seems like pretty good return for 6 mana. Plus he makes zombies in commander zombies are hype as heck. Hard to watch your language took me like two mins to think what to replace the f with there.

Grave Titan pulls triple duty in the six mana slot, and is run as much for its flexibility as its wincon potential.

It trades up with desthtouch. It provides 10 power for six mana, which is great value. It leaves behind blockers when it swings. It provides sacrifice fodder for any decks interested in such things. It's the Swiss Army knife knife of six drops, and if left alone it does indeed win the game on the back of a token army.

Quote from Tev »

6+ are bombastic plays that should win you the game. Granted, we're in a multiplayer format so there's probably someone with an answer. But that's been my idea of a six drop: it can carry you to victory by itself.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Is suppose it depends on your meta.

I don't see Grave Titans in the games I play, possibly because my meta is super competitive. Money is no object so people are putting in the very best cards they can fit.

If you're on a lower budget, or prefer a more battle cruiser style game, Grave Titan gives good value for a reasonable price point and mana cost.

We use the "Consecrated Sphinx" test for 6 drops. If it's power level is lower than Consecrated Sphinx it's probably not making the grade.

Quote from gethinsite »

Quote from Tev »

6+ are bombastic plays that should win you the game. Granted, we're in a multiplayer format so there's probably someone with an answer. But that's been my idea of a six drop: it can carry you to victory by itself.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Is suppose it depends on your meta.

I don't see Grave Titans in the games I play, possibly because my meta is super competitive. Money is no object so people are putting in the very best cards they can fit.

If you're on a lower budget, or prefer a more battle cruiser style game, Grave Titan gives good value for a reasonable price point and mana cost.

We use the "Consecrated Sphinx" test for 6 drops. If it's power level is lower than Consecrated Sphinx it's probably not making the grade.

Why not the "Jace test" from earlier while Mind Sculptor was in Standard? It is a good measurement since competitive enough, most creatures die before non EtB triggers or effects can take place (depending on meta).

It's at the top tier because it simply reflects how EDH is normally played.

Broken creatures for an established group tend to get phased out for social reasons. Established in the sense you have been playing EDH at least weekly for a year or so. I've yet to see an established group playing broken cards for more than 3 months. They tend to fade out real fast. It's certainly an anomaly if it exists.

i use to jam it everywhere i could, 10 power for 6 mana, the ability to churn out more dudes, it was fuel for a lot of things.

in recent years i've cut it everywhere and really haven't even noticed its absence. most of the time it was hitting play and immediately dying, or just having no impact on board state so turns would go something like grave titan go, someone else in the pod combos off game over.

that said, i would absolutely still run it in less developed metas where it can actually shine and do work. metas where removal, mass or spot, aren't run as frequently, and where combo isn't quite so dominant.

I personally use it in Vela-Aristocrats for its ability to generate a steady supply of bodies. It's a deck that also runs effects like Blade of Selves and Mirror Mockery.

Cheap, generates lots of tokens, and is a beater on its own, also serves well with zombie tribal.

I think it's the most "good stuff" black 6cmc creature. The number two titan remaining?

you are correct. in a highly competitive meta it isn't strong enough for 6cc. those metas are the exception though, aren't trying to win through combat damage, and also not that common. in anything slightly less competitive he's really good and as others have mentioned fits multiple edh strategy (tokens, etb).

Good comments above, but I'd add that Grave Titan is also highly regarded because, in addition to the massive power it brings to the board, it's in black, which is the color best-suited to recur it. I have a zombie tribal EDH deck that recurs things easily, and a Grave Titan every turn can easily take over a game that doesn't have a combo player present, or if the combo player is not doing well.

With all the talks of combos, Grave Titan can combo with Nim Deathmantle + Ashnod's Altar. Sacrifice a token an the Titan for 4, then use that to pay for Deathmantle and you are +1 zombie token. This will create an infinite army of zombies, and you can sacrifice those to make infinite colorless mana which can be used to win the game right there without the combat step. Thee are many creatures which work with this combo, but not nearly as many are as good on their own as Grave Titan.

It's one of the best creatures in black, fits in any reanimation or sacrifice themed deck, among tons of others. It's an absolute EDH staple.

If you're wondering where it fits into cutthroat combo, it doesn't. It's at least worth a try in Marchesa if you haven't yet tried it.

As creatures in black that cost 6 go... it's actually not all that bad. If your playgroup has creatures that cost 6, it might be good enough to run, especially if you're in mono-black.

I think at more competitive tables that don't play many (or any) 6-cost creatures, it falls off.

There's also a fair amount of sentimental value that players have for the titans that are legal.

Grave Titan is just ok. Its better than Frost Titan for sure but its definitely worse than Primeval Titan (banned card) and Sun Titan. Its situationally better than Inferno Titan but both cases would depend on the decks and what you play against.

Overall, its far from staple black but at the same time its a decent bit of reward for the mana and it recurs nicely. Its not a bad card but its also not a card I find myself including in that many decks because while its efficient, unless you are playing token tactics its rarely more than just a general stat efficient card that is hard to spot remove (because of the tokens).

So, from I'm gathering from everybody...

If you're playing 'fair EDH', he's really good but has fallen by the wayside in competitive EDH. Black is my favourite colour, so I was quite surprised to see thing card continually pop up. I guess I fall more towards competitive EDH than non-competitive EDH.

Quote from Tev »

So, from I'm gathering from everybody...

Certainly.

I mean, I don't think black has the same glut of quality 6 CMC creatures that some other colours do. For white, I have this stack of 6 CMC creatures that I play depending on what would be strongest in the deck; Sun Titan, Adarkar Valkyrie, Admonition Angel, Angelic Skirmisher, Captain of the Watch, Sunblast Angel, Soul of Theros, Twilight Shepherd, and Yosei, the Morning Star. I don't think black has the same variety of effects, even if they have some good options.

Well Grave Titan is sutch a cool creature in concept aswell.

I kind of disagree: Kokusho, the Evening Star, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Ob Nixilis, Unshackled, Geth, Lord of the Vault, Harvester of Souls, Reaper from the Abyss, Masscre Wurm, Dread, etc. That's not including powerful artifact creatures at 6, powerful multicolored creatures and powerful creatures of different colours. For example, if I'm playing Grixis Marchesa, I have access to all the bombastic blue and red six drops, plus any combination of blue, black and red multicolours.

He's good, but maybe I'm underestimating how good when my personal compass swings more towards competitive than 'fair'.

I find it serviceable if you can very easily loop the etb and/or have use for the tokens, but if I'm looking for a clock I have far better tools and more refined strategies for the job.

I play it in Meren too sometimes , it is just that good , you can get so much value out from the card, especially in a token or zombie deck.

If you have the ability to get it out on turn 3 , a lot of people can't stop it

Grave Titan, to me, has always been a decent card with a lot of value. He's very easy to get mileage out of. Something that allows him ETB multiple times and you've a decent amount of fodder to use for many different things. The fact that he's a 6/6 with deathtouch and makes more mooks just by attacking just adds to why people like him.

That's not say that he's best as has been pointed out in this very thread. There are plenty of other creatures that do overshadow him. But let's look at some them for a second:

Geth, Lord of the Vault- Geth is a great card and is quite better than ol' Grave Titan. But Geth is also mana intensive and who needs a suitable target. So really, you're paying 6 mana for Geth and then X+1 mana to utilize his effect. Geth's results and effectiveness demand more investment despite being better in the long term.

Harvester of Souls- Harvest gives you CA and that's almost always a good thing. However, Harvester is dependent on another creature dying to get that CA. But events have to be engineered for that to happen which may require more mana on your part or waiting from something/someone else to make it happen. Even then, there's no guarantee that what you draw will be any good depending on the situation.

Dread- Same P/T with better chance of connecting with attacks while protecting you by making your opponents sacrifice. Much more versatile than Graves but still has some oversights. It can still be blocked with the right creatures while Graves kills anything it hits unless they're indestructible or damage is prevented. Dread can stop creatures from attacking you but if that happens then nothing is dying, leaving your opponents with creatures to do other things.

Massacre Wurm- Wurm is the closest to achieving what Grave Titan does for same CMC. However, Wurm only gets its' effect on ETB while Graven Titan gets his on ETB and every attack he makes. Wurm's effect is more potent and game changing once abused but cannot be abused as easily as Graven Titan.

The thing is, is that every creature I just listed is more powerful and devastating once they get going. However, none of them are as self sustaining as Graven Titan. They all require other things and variables to get stuff done. Graven Titan: pay your 6 mana, get 3 bodies. Start attacking and you get more bodies. Grave Titan's effects have immediate results and don't require anything else to grow and use other than what every creature (except those with defender) can already do. That level of value for doing so little is always going to be appealing, even if it isn't the be all, end all.

Uh...is it?

I feel like it's one of those fine value creatures that's decent without really being amazing.

It was sure lulzy in M12 limited though. I got one once, and I remember even running diabolic tutor and basically just winning every game with it because there was no reasonable way to kill it. You'd 2 or 3-for-one to kill it, and I'd STILL have an army of zambees.