Because exiling is significantly more valuable than any of the additional benefits the Gearhulk provides, and Duplicantbarely makes the cut in decks where the Commander provides repeatable recursion for it.
The only deck I would ever consider Noxious Gearhulk in, instead of Duplicant or in addition to it, would be Chainer, Dementia Master. There, the life gain becomes relevant enough to consider including the card.
With that in mind, if you are in such a hyper-tuned meta where Duplicant is barely playable, then every Gearhulk should rank as a 1 out of 5, as will about 99% of cards every set.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Because exiling is significantly more valuable than any of the additional benefits the Gearhulk provides, and Duplicantbarely makes the cut in decks where the Commander provides repeatable recursion for it.
The only deck I would ever consider Noxious Gearhulk in, instead of Duplicant or in addition to it, would be Chainer, Dementia Master. There, the life gain becomes relevant enough to consider including the card.
With that in mind, if you are in such a hyper-tuned meta where Duplicant is barely playable, then every Gearhulk should rank as a 1 out of 5, as will about 99% of cards every set.
Pretty much this.
Are there better cards than these? Yes.
Are there worse cards than these? Yes.
They are far from bad though, and that goes for all of them. I do find it funny though that the Alesha player says Duplicant barely makes the cut. I've had an Alesha deck since she was spoiled, and Duplicant was literally the first card I put into it.
i rank the green one as the worst, it just doesn't do anything relevant except maybe in niche cases
i also really don't think the blue one is anywhere near as good as people make it out to be. it can only hit instants, and only in your graveyard. it seems great at first glance, but take a look sometime at the breakdown of instants in most of your decks - its probably not as high as you think which means that most of the time this card is sitting in your hand doing nothing. its okay if you're counterspell heavy but that can also be pretty niche too.
the red one is pretty decent for what red wants to be doing, but overall fairly weak. you'll always get the worse option, and it has the potential to whiff or deal insignificant damage.
the black one isn't bad by any means. its a solid inclusion just about anywhere. kills a creature, blinkable, decent body
white one, as has been mentioned, is a blinkable reset button and thats incredibly useful
With that in mind, if you are in such a hyper-tuned meta where Duplicant is barely playable, then every Gearhulk should rank as a 1 out of 5, as will about 99% of cards every set.
You do not need to play in a 'hyper-tuned meta' to realize paying six mana for a single-target, sorcery speed creature removal is bad.
Neither Duplicant or Noxious Gearhulk should even be considered unless you can reliably recur them, and even then they are not even close to an 'auto include'.
If you seriously think that recognizing those cards are wildly inefficient for their effect outside of very specific decks is 'hyper-competative', then I wish you bliss in your ignorance.
With that in mind, if you are in such a hyper-tuned meta where Duplicant is barely playable, then every Gearhulk should rank as a 1 out of 5, as will about 99% of cards every set.
You do not need to play in a 'hyper-tuned meta' to realize paying six mana for a single-target, sorcery speed creature removal is bad.
Neither Duplicant or Noxious Gearhulk should even be considered unless you can reliably recur them, and even then they are not even close to an 'auto include'.
If you seriously think that recognizing those cards are wildly inefficient for their effect outside of very specific decks is 'hyper-competative', then I wish you bliss in your ignorance.
In a meta where the only removal played is either 0 or 1 mana (Snuff Out, Path, Swords, Slaughter Pact, etc) or extremely efficient board wipes (Toxic Deluge, Black Sun's Zenith), then obviously both Noxious Gearhulk and Duplicant will be awful. But I would consider that to be a much more cutthroat meta than most EDH groups. Not every group is "play 1 land until you drop a vanilla fattie battlecruiser", but not every meta is "combo kill on turn 4 with Force of Will backup" either. In an average meta where Duplicant sees reasonable amounts of play, I see no reason why Noxious Gearhulk wouldn't see play too.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
In all honesty, I'm not using either in my monoblack deck. Nekrataal, Shriekmaw, and Avatar of WHOA are my single creature removal on creatures. I wrath...often.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I feel that Cataclysmic is the best due to its effect and the fact that it can be flickered.
I'll be doing exactly that in Brago, King Eternal. I'll pick Cataclysmic Gearhulk as the "Artifact" and my commander as "Creature", ... so looking forwart to people see cringe. Nearly Tragic Arrogance on a stick. Love it!
The blue gearhulk simply allow you to recast a busted instant again. pretty much a lot of blue decks will run this card, "almost" comparable to Consecrated Sphinx, Deadeye Navigator.
The white gearhulk allows you to wrath the board, seems like a very powerful effect.
The red gearhulk would do bunch of damage to a opponent, and you can finish him off faster, sometimes it can help you draw 3 cards too, which is pretty nice.
The green gearhulk is not very effective in this format since it can just make your creatures big, but however, counter/big power creature related decks will still like this dude.
The black gearhulk...... I mean it just kill a creature... and you gain some life.... Black have so much better wincon creatures to choose from (Mikaeus, Sheoldred, Grave Titan, Kokusho etc), and you have more removal spell options in black.
Cataclysmic Gearhulk is really the first major blinkable boardwipe. This is huge, and fullfills a role in decks that didn't previously exist, especially in some color combinations. That it counts as an Artifact or Creature for its own effect really helps set up those off-balance situations.
Combustible Gearhulk has really been impressing me. While the effect has underwhelmed a tiny bit to my expectations, it has one of the most sizable bodies of the gearhulks, and the First Strike has kept a large number of commanders and ancillary attacks away from myself. The occasional high-hit to the dome on ETB has been nice as well. Again, (as with all gearhulks) the artifact typing has been highly relevant, as dropping a Copy Artifact or Sculpting Steel for a cheap copy has felt incredibly good, as has returning it with various artifact recursion abilities. Add to this any GY strategies you might have, and he looks really good in mono-Red, as well as RU, and RB decks. Possibly even RW.
Torrential Gearhulk is a great option for a large-scale utility guy - but the restriction to instant only really limits him to that utility. In essence, you get to recast one of the larger counterspells that you have - Plasm Capture, Mystic Confluence, or Cryptic Command... Possibly Evacuate. and at that point, it's really just another variant of a Draining Whelk, or in the case of evacuate, he's a second shot that then gets lost. He's good, but my evaluation has been dropping.
Noxious Gearhulk does have a better body than duplicant, but I'm going to have to echo the others and say that killing Gods, Indestructibles, Persist/Undying, Regenerators, Protection from black, and sword-wielders... that's a lot of extra reach that Duplicant has over the Gearhulk. There will be some decks that prefer the hulk, but I think duplicant will win out in the majority of cases.
Verderous Gearhulk an 8/8 isn't bad, but Green typically gets bigger. For example, for 1 mana more you get Ulvenwald Hydra, which if cast on curve is a 7/7, that tutors up any land... and then gets bigger. I'm sure there are a number of +1 counter decks that will enjoy flickering him for additional massive etb counter deposits, but I think there are a fair number of redundant effects for that strategy, such as Cathars' Crusade, Cytoplast root-kin, etc. Overall, he's a powerfouse, but doesn't diversify his effect enough for EDH.
===
Also, the average scores are totalling to 15.291 (when the total should be 15), so some people are cheating in their votes. :angry:
extremely efficient board wipes (Toxic Deluge, Black Sun's Zenith)
in what world is BSZ efficient? I think it sucks
It gets around everything but Melira. It punishes decks that run Doubling Season. If you have trouble with Sigarda, it gets around both her abilities as well as her favorite Darksteel Plate.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
The white one is just bonkers. I just keeping thinking about it in a W/B/x Reanimator deck where you can just clean the board whenever you want and swing with whatever is left. Maybe some kind of Derevi deck too? I just can't believe it. Freaking crazy. A sweeper on a stick is nothing to laugh at.
My meta isn't super competitive and a 5/4 Evasive beater that comes with removal and life gain for 6 is really good. I tend to not run life gain in most of my decks because its bad (unless incidental) but I often lose games simply because my opponents tend to outlast me. Having a threat, life gain, and removal on 1 card is actually a really nice advantage.
I think the U one is good. I mean, even hitting a Glimmer of Geniius or Jace's Ingenuity is fine I think. A flash 5/4, draw 3 is fine by me. Even rebuying a spent Cyclonic Rift isn't the worst thing.
The red one is actually my favorite but I felt like its really only good when you can flicker it a bunch which isn't the easiest to do in Red. It is a source of card advantage in red though so that's nice. Even cards in the 'yard might as well be in your hand in some decks (Alesha, Tymaret, etc) so that's not the worst. In Daretti though...whew. That's just nuts with a decent sac outlet you can recur it quite easily and just wreck someone's day. I think where its good, its the best of the cycle and where its not good, its probably just okay.
The green one is bad. I don't like it at all. I mean, it has uses, what card doesn't I guess. I just think its effect is meh and there are other ways to do the same thing in those colors.
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The scores are totaling to 15.32 when it should be 15, so it appears that some people have not followed the rules, but whatever.
I felt before putting up the poll that the W and U ones would be top 2, the red and black would be 3-4, and green would be last, so this doesn't come as a surprise.
Honestly I see the R Ghulk over the U... the R Ghulk is a much better creature on the field and honestly, I feel the U Ghulk is too dependant on what is in your yard. I can see many times where this guy will sit in your hand waiting to not waste it. More often than not, I see this guy as another Draining Whelk. And having to leave open 6 mana is rough. All in all, I see the W and the R ones as the best.
The W one is super funny with Emeria also :p. Use Emeria to bring back Yosei, sac it to the gearhulk lol.
The R one is super funny with Scroll Rack also. You can either use scroll rack to put excess lands on top, and either tricking someone to make you draw (since they will probably assume you put something big up top) or they mill the excess lands and let you dig deeper still. Or you can stack big cards on top and watch your opponent take big damage.
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Honestly I see the R Ghulk over the U... the R Ghulk is a much better creature on the field and honestly, I feel the U Ghulk is too dependant on what is in your yard. I can see many times where this guy will sit in your hand waiting to not waste it. More often than not, I see this guy as another Draining Whelk. And having to leave open 6 mana is rough. All in all, I see the W and the R ones as the best.
I probably have a bias since I like spells that clear the board, but I think Cataclysmic might be the best of the lot, considering it's Cataclysm (sans land d) on an easily to recur artifact/creature. Could be downright oppressive with a blink effect.
I mostly stand by my initial assessment. Cataclysm is the best and a unique effect, yet the nature of the effect has kept less experienced players from running it as much as they should. It has, nonetheless, had the biggest impact on the format. Combustible is a unique effect that is really well suited to commander and I've seen it fairly often online, and playing it have found it to often be a blowout, especially in decks that can recur it or blink it. I see Noxious and Torrential about the same amount. I now believe that Torrential is better than Noxious, but it requires more build around. Absolutely slots into spell slinger and any deck that is heavy on counter spells. Noxious fits the role I initially assessed it at, about as well as I initially assessed it at. It doesn't do anything special and hasn't added any wrinkles to the format beyond being backup for Duplicant in black decks. Really, Duplicant being an artifact is what hurts Noxious the most, as if it weren't Noxious would have artifact interactions as a bonus, like the other ghulks, but Duplicant gets that same bonus. Verdurous is mightily mediocre. Its good in counter based decks, but it doesn't add anything to them, it just displaces the weakest card in the 99.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
With that in mind, if you are in such a hyper-tuned meta where Duplicant is barely playable, then every Gearhulk should rank as a 1 out of 5, as will about 99% of cards every set.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Pretty much this.
Are there better cards than these? Yes.
Are there worse cards than these? Yes.
They are far from bad though, and that goes for all of them. I do find it funny though that the Alesha player says Duplicant barely makes the cut. I've had an Alesha deck since she was spoiled, and Duplicant was literally the first card I put into it.
i also really don't think the blue one is anywhere near as good as people make it out to be. it can only hit instants, and only in your graveyard. it seems great at first glance, but take a look sometime at the breakdown of instants in most of your decks - its probably not as high as you think which means that most of the time this card is sitting in your hand doing nothing. its okay if you're counterspell heavy but that can also be pretty niche too.
the red one is pretty decent for what red wants to be doing, but overall fairly weak. you'll always get the worse option, and it has the potential to whiff or deal insignificant damage.
the black one isn't bad by any means. its a solid inclusion just about anywhere. kills a creature, blinkable, decent body
white one, as has been mentioned, is a blinkable reset button and thats incredibly useful
You do not need to play in a 'hyper-tuned meta' to realize paying six mana for a single-target, sorcery speed creature removal is bad.
Neither Duplicant or Noxious Gearhulk should even be considered unless you can reliably recur them, and even then they are not even close to an 'auto include'.
If you seriously think that recognizing those cards are wildly inefficient for their effect outside of very specific decks is 'hyper-competative', then I wish you bliss in your ignorance.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
In a meta where the only removal played is either 0 or 1 mana (Snuff Out, Path, Swords, Slaughter Pact, etc) or extremely efficient board wipes (Toxic Deluge, Black Sun's Zenith), then obviously both Noxious Gearhulk and Duplicant will be awful. But I would consider that to be a much more cutthroat meta than most EDH groups. Not every group is "play 1 land until you drop a vanilla fattie battlecruiser", but not every meta is "combo kill on turn 4 with Force of Will backup" either. In an average meta where Duplicant sees reasonable amounts of play, I see no reason why Noxious Gearhulk wouldn't see play too.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
On phasing:
Torrential has a sweet effect, especially considered that there are some sweet spells to reuse in edh and it can be flickered or bounced
The red one can be good in a big red deck or a deck that can copy/ resuse it
the black one is sweet as a reusable kill spell (it's in black)
I feel the green one isn't great in edh
U > W > R > G > B
The blue gearhulk simply allow you to recast a busted instant again. pretty much a lot of blue decks will run this card, "almost" comparable to Consecrated Sphinx, Deadeye Navigator.
The white gearhulk allows you to wrath the board, seems like a very powerful effect.
The red gearhulk would do bunch of damage to a opponent, and you can finish him off faster, sometimes it can help you draw 3 cards too, which is pretty nice.
The green gearhulk is not very effective in this format since it can just make your creatures big, but however, counter/big power creature related decks will still like this dude.
The black gearhulk...... I mean it just kill a creature... and you gain some life.... Black have so much better wincon creatures to choose from (Mikaeus, Sheoldred, Grave Titan, Kokusho etc), and you have more removal spell options in black.
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
in what world is BSZ efficient? I think it sucks
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Cataclysmic Gearhulk is really the first major blinkable boardwipe. This is huge, and fullfills a role in decks that didn't previously exist, especially in some color combinations. That it counts as an Artifact or Creature for its own effect really helps set up those off-balance situations.
Combustible Gearhulk has really been impressing me. While the effect has underwhelmed a tiny bit to my expectations, it has one of the most sizable bodies of the gearhulks, and the First Strike has kept a large number of commanders and ancillary attacks away from myself. The occasional high-hit to the dome on ETB has been nice as well. Again, (as with all gearhulks) the artifact typing has been highly relevant, as dropping a Copy Artifact or Sculpting Steel for a cheap copy has felt incredibly good, as has returning it with various artifact recursion abilities. Add to this any GY strategies you might have, and he looks really good in mono-Red, as well as RU, and RB decks. Possibly even RW.
Torrential Gearhulk is a great option for a large-scale utility guy - but the restriction to instant only really limits him to that utility. In essence, you get to recast one of the larger counterspells that you have - Plasm Capture, Mystic Confluence, or Cryptic Command... Possibly Evacuate. and at that point, it's really just another variant of a Draining Whelk, or in the case of evacuate, he's a second shot that then gets lost. He's good, but my evaluation has been dropping.
Noxious Gearhulk does have a better body than duplicant, but I'm going to have to echo the others and say that killing Gods, Indestructibles, Persist/Undying, Regenerators, Protection from black, and sword-wielders... that's a lot of extra reach that Duplicant has over the Gearhulk. There will be some decks that prefer the hulk, but I think duplicant will win out in the majority of cases.
Verderous Gearhulk an 8/8 isn't bad, but Green typically gets bigger. For example, for 1 mana more you get Ulvenwald Hydra, which if cast on curve is a 7/7, that tutors up any land... and then gets bigger. I'm sure there are a number of +1 counter decks that will enjoy flickering him for additional massive etb counter deposits, but I think there are a fair number of redundant effects for that strategy, such as Cathars' Crusade, Cytoplast root-kin, etc. Overall, he's a powerfouse, but doesn't diversify his effect enough for EDH.
===
Also, the average scores are totalling to 15.291 (when the total should be 15), so some people are cheating in their votes. :angry:
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
It gets around everything but Melira. It punishes decks that run Doubling Season. If you have trouble with Sigarda, it gets around both her abilities as well as her favorite Darksteel Plate.
On phasing:
The white one is just bonkers. I just keeping thinking about it in a W/B/x Reanimator deck where you can just clean the board whenever you want and swing with whatever is left. Maybe some kind of Derevi deck too? I just can't believe it. Freaking crazy. A sweeper on a stick is nothing to laugh at.
My meta isn't super competitive and a 5/4 Evasive beater that comes with removal and life gain for 6 is really good. I tend to not run life gain in most of my decks because its bad (unless incidental) but I often lose games simply because my opponents tend to outlast me. Having a threat, life gain, and removal on 1 card is actually a really nice advantage.
I think the U one is good. I mean, even hitting a Glimmer of Geniius or Jace's Ingenuity is fine I think. A flash 5/4, draw 3 is fine by me. Even rebuying a spent Cyclonic Rift isn't the worst thing.
The red one is actually my favorite but I felt like its really only good when you can flicker it a bunch which isn't the easiest to do in Red. It is a source of card advantage in red though so that's nice. Even cards in the 'yard might as well be in your hand in some decks (Alesha, Tymaret, etc) so that's not the worst. In Daretti though...whew. That's just nuts with a decent sac outlet you can recur it quite easily and just wreck someone's day. I think where its good, its the best of the cycle and where its not good, its probably just okay.
The green one is bad. I don't like it at all. I mean, it has uses, what card doesn't I guess. I just think its effect is meh and there are other ways to do the same thing in those colors.
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#1 - Torrential (3.497)
#2 - Cataclysmic (3.378)
#3 - Noxious (3.178)
#4 - Combustible (2.779)
#5 - Verdurous (2.488)
The scores are totaling to 15.32 when it should be 15, so it appears that some people have not followed the rules, but whatever.
I felt before putting up the poll that the W and U ones would be top 2, the red and black would be 3-4, and green would be last, so this doesn't come as a surprise.
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
The W one is super funny with Emeria also :p. Use Emeria to bring back Yosei, sac it to the gearhulk lol.
The R one is super funny with Scroll Rack also. You can either use scroll rack to put excess lands on top, and either tricking someone to make you draw (since they will probably assume you put something big up top) or they mill the excess lands and let you dig deeper still. Or you can stack big cards on top and watch your opponent take big damage.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
U hulk requires more building around yeah but check it out in a deck like this
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All depends on the deck it is in.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH