Now I know this guy just came out, but before he could even hit the countertop on Commander... something about him immediately triggered me, and although I don't know what the future is going to be for this guy something just seems inherently wrong having him in a format like EDH.
FYI
Planeswalker Gideon
+1: zzz
0: zzz -4: You get an emblem with "Creatures you control get +1/+1.
So basically he hits the table, for the rest of the game your creatures (not even just "white" creatures) get a permanent +1/+1. Now there's a lot of anthems in the game, so you're probably thinking whats the big deal (?), the problem I have is that just about any deck that splashes white is almost guaranteed to run this guy now till the end of time. And with decks with green that run regrowth/witness I could see them getting him back and replaying him even once or twice.
I really don't like the direction that this game is going with emblems and permanent experience counters, especially if they're pushing Commander as a big thing, if they plan on pushing more cards like these. I'm an oldschool fan of Enchantments and the risk/reward of trying to sneak in a Crusade/Glorious Anthem/Mirari's Wake to see if they stick... there's no risk in playing a card that you just cast and permanently bolster your guys the rest of the game, it's completely stupid and bad game design IMO.
Let me know what you think. btw I'm not so much bothered of those cards in the other faster formats, but I dont think they belong in big team multiplayer format.
There are so many broken things you can do in multiplayer these days that paying 4 for what is better than an indestructible "glorious anthem" is hardly concerning these days.
Sure, you can recur it repeatedly and build a good board state, but doing all that takes quite a bit of time.
There are so many broken things you can do in multiplayer these days that paying 4 for what is better than an indestructible "glorious anthem" is hardly concerning these days.
I find that he's most effective with generals that have 6 power naturally. Going from a 4-turn clock to a 3-turn clock for a general damage kill is significant, especially when you can't get rid of the bonus.
I can see what you mean. Whether it's the +1/+1 emblem (which, while sometimes underpowered, CAN be pretty nasty in the right deck and/or meta) or the experience counters, the number of generally unanswerable effects is slowly increasing.
I honestly have less of a qualm with the Gideon emblem (just because the instant emblem is unique to him, with a close second being that of Nissa, Vital Force). However it really feels like the experience counters from commander 2015 pushed a few things over the edge.
I have no problem with losing to a precon commander deck (I've gotten used to it, in fact), but the fact is, each commander set pushes the power level of most decks higher and higher. Nowadays, I feel like you either have to find the new commander staples (Command Becon and other unique ones) or you fall far behind. But I digress, back to the point.
Effects which are removal-proof are strong (see:Meren of Clan Nel Toth), and they need to use them sparingly.
Yeah, the problem with it isn't just the power level, but that you have no way of interacting with the emblem. Same issue with exp counters. An Indestructible "anthem"... sure, it's at least there and you can bounce it, Return to Dust, or Chaos Warp it away. Things that lack an ability to counter are bad game design how I see it.
I think you guys are also underestimating the impact. If someone emblems in a Hazezon deck, that's doubling the total power of sand tokens every time they recast and it will never go away. i.e. It's a diff of 14/14 vs 28/28 power. Same with Trostani and token decks, 8 1/1's is pretty harmless but 8 2/2's are a threat. Again, the main issue is no counter play.
However it really feels like the experience counters from commander 2015 pushed a few things over the edge.
Yeah, before we got the news this year's decks were going to be 4C, I was hoping we'd get the other five 2C decks, and it would include means to use up experience counters. Especially with Mizzix and Meren, there comes a point where you don't need any more counters. Even something as simple as a land with "Remove X experience counters from yourself, t: Add X mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool." would've been cool.
Ha, Avenger doesn't even need to play the land, and this guy helps!
Continuing the off-topic, yeah, some sap effect that removes counters (poison, energy, experience) and emblems from players would be nice (if niche). Instead they should back to heart-of-the-cards stuff like Miracle! There was a fun mechanic that I thought seemed perfect for EDH.
I think this might be one of the weakest things you could do with four mana. With the number of ways to answer creatures, I feel like getting them an unanswerable +1/+1 isn't going to be what tips the scales.
Yeah, the problem with it isn't just the power level, but that you have no way of interacting with the emblem. Same issue with exp counters. An Indestructible "anthem"... sure, it's at least there and you can bounce it, Return to Dust, or Chaos Warp it away. Things that lack an ability to counter are bad game design how I see it.
If someone emblems in a Hazezon deck, that's doubling the total power of sand tokens every time they recast and it will never go away. i.e. It's a diff of 14/14 vs 28/28 power. Same with Trostani and token decks, 8 1/1's is pretty harmless but 8 2/2's are a threat. Again, the main issue is no counter play.
I don't like being the "dies to removal guy," but yes, I'm going to continue to echo the sentiment that it isn't really all that powerful an effect without repeated recursion. A few wraths up your sleeve and he burned four mana and a planeswalker to do a lot of not much.
It isn't like its drawing people cards in an often too-uninteractive way. I could talk about the Monarch ability for awhile, it isn't at all broken, but it is by far my least favorite non-permanent effect in the game just for what it represents in the grand scheme of a growing avalanche of experience counters, poison, energy, and emblems.
...the problem I have is that just about any deck that splashes white is almost guaranteed to run this guy now till the end of time.
I really don't mean this in a condescending way, but this made me laugh out loud. Is it a powerful effect? Sure. But claiming that Gideon, Ally of Zendikar makes any deck able to cast it better is a joke. It's not even clear that he belongs in every token deck (where anthem effects are strongest) let alone every deck. Seriously, Gideon has been around for the better part of a year now and I don't see any metagames warping around his presence.
Edit: In a broad sense I agree with the distaste shown in this thread for game mechanics which can't be interacted with directly. However, none of the existing ones are causing problems. Why? Because while you can't interact with them directly you can do things to limit or eliminate the effect they have on the actual game. Experience counters do nothing without one of 5 creatures in play. Emblems from planeswalkers that don't require a turn or two of ticking up leave the creatures they pump vulnerable. Emblems from planeswalkers that do require a turn or two of ticking up can be interacted with preemptively. Poison counters don't accumulate without small-creature combat.
I'm not trying to say "nothing is broken because removal exists." I'm just trying to point out that these sorts of mechanics are, in fact, interactive.
Why aren't we talking about the best Gideon, Gideon Jura? He punches as hard as a titan, he can assassinate creatures, and he can take a punch for you and your other planeswalkers. Gideon is the best wingman for any planeswalker or player.
Edit: feel free to bring up the other Gideons, and why they aren't as awesome as the original.
"Hey, I'm going to remove Hazezon after all the tokens come into play."
"Oh, well...I still have my Oracle of Mul Daya."
"Yeah, not for much longer."
Hazezon is one of the easiest token generators to disrupt (sure, you can build the deck to mess around with bounce shenanigans as "protection," but I always thought that that whole package just ate up space--someone at the table will find a way to excise Hazezon).
Look, the eternal pump is nice. I do not think it's he best move at that four cmc spot in the deck, but I understand its merit.
Hazezon is one of the easiest token generators to disrupt (sure, you can build the deck to mess around with bounce shenanigans as "protection," but I always thought that that whole package just ate up space--someone at the table will find a way to excise Hazezon).
Every Hazezon deck I've seen simply sacrifices Hazezon before the tokens come in, using one of any of a number of cards that are also useful with the tokens (eg, Ashnod's Altar). Hazezon doesn't need to be in play for you to get the tokens.
Every Hazezon deck I've seen simply sacrifices Hazezon before the tokens come in, using one of any of a number of cards that are also useful with the tokens (eg, Ashnod's Altar). Hazezon doesn't need to be in play for you to get the tokens.
I've played Hazezon a bunch and I don't think I've ever cast him without a sac outlet available. I'm not getting my 7+ mana army removed by a single Swords to Plowshares.
I do that sometimes, but I'm not racking up the general tax if I don't have to!
I would say that most Hazezon decks are ramp decks, given the general. why not just pay the tax? I've run out of lands in the deck more often than I haven't been able to pay a few extra mana. I've cast, sacced, and cast again more often than I was concerned about the general tax.
On Gideon and emblem, I'm with everyone else not seeing a problem here. Glorious Anthem is pretty bad in this format most of the time. I rarely even see things like Honor of the Pure or Crusade because it's such a minor effect on most boardstates, even at 2 CMC. Making it harder to remove at a higher CMC doesn't really seem like a problem.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
"Hey, I'm going to remove Hazezon after all the tokens come into play."
"Oh, well...I still have my Oracle of Mul Daya."
"Yeah, not for much longer."
Hazezon is one of the easiest token generators to disrupt (sure, you can build the deck to mess around with bounce shenanigans as "protection," but I always thought that that whole package just ate up space--someone at the table will find a way to excise Hazezon).
Look, the eternal pump is nice. I do not think it's he best move at that four cmc spot in the deck, but I understand its merit.
Well that's unfortunate, went through all that work to rip on me and completely misses the point entirely how Haz decks function. You wasted 2 paragraphs explaining something that will never happen, grats.
While I do think a permanent Anthem is powerful it was more of a side note, the issue is Wizards pushing permanent effects now for free that cannot be answered, it's not just the power level it's bad game design.
FYI
So basically he hits the table, for the rest of the game your creatures (not even just "white" creatures) get a permanent +1/+1. Now there's a lot of anthems in the game, so you're probably thinking whats the big deal (?), the problem I have is that just about any deck that splashes white is almost guaranteed to run this guy now till the end of time. And with decks with green that run regrowth/witness I could see them getting him back and replaying him even once or twice.
I really don't like the direction that this game is going with emblems and permanent experience counters, especially if they're pushing Commander as a big thing, if they plan on pushing more cards like these. I'm an oldschool fan of Enchantments and the risk/reward of trying to sneak in a Crusade/Glorious Anthem/Mirari's Wake to see if they stick... there's no risk in playing a card that you just cast and permanently bolster your guys the rest of the game, it's completely stupid and bad game design IMO.
Let me know what you think. btw I'm not so much bothered of those cards in the other faster formats, but I dont think they belong in big team multiplayer format.
GWRUB[EDH] Reaper KingGWRUB
GW[Legacy] BEARS (#1 Threat in America)GW
UR[Legacy] Arcane MeleeUR
Sure, you can recur it repeatedly and build a good board state, but doing all that takes quite a bit of time.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I agree. Bit on the weak side.
The same applies to Sorin, Lord of Innistrad.
(I guess the power 10 -> power 11 jump is also relevant, but there are only 4 legendary creatures with 10 power, and only one of them is white.)
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I honestly have less of a qualm with the Gideon emblem (just because the instant emblem is unique to him, with a close second being that of Nissa, Vital Force). However it really feels like the experience counters from commander 2015 pushed a few things over the edge.
I have no problem with losing to a precon commander deck (I've gotten used to it, in fact), but the fact is, each commander set pushes the power level of most decks higher and higher. Nowadays, I feel like you either have to find the new commander staples (Command Becon and other unique ones) or you fall far behind. But I digress, back to the point.
Effects which are removal-proof are strong (see:Meren of Clan Nel Toth), and they need to use them sparingly.
I think you guys are also underestimating the impact. If someone emblems in a Hazezon deck, that's doubling the total power of sand tokens every time they recast and it will never go away. i.e. It's a diff of 14/14 vs 28/28 power. Same with Trostani and token decks, 8 1/1's is pretty harmless but 8 2/2's are a threat. Again, the main issue is no counter play.
GWRUB[EDH] Reaper KingGWRUB
GW[Legacy] BEARS (#1 Threat in America)GW
UR[Legacy] Arcane MeleeUR
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Continuing the off-topic, yeah, some sap effect that removes counters (poison, energy, experience) and emblems from players would be nice (if niche). Instead they should back to heart-of-the-cards stuff like Miracle! There was a fun mechanic that I thought seemed perfect for EDH.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak
Just answer the creatures, dude. It's way easier.
Somebody hold me up. MRdown2urth, help me.
It isn't like its drawing people cards in an often too-uninteractive way. I could talk about the Monarch ability for awhile, it isn't at all broken, but it is by far my least favorite non-permanent effect in the game just for what it represents in the grand scheme of a growing avalanche of experience counters, poison, energy, and emblems.
I really don't mean this in a condescending way, but this made me laugh out loud. Is it a powerful effect? Sure. But claiming that Gideon, Ally of Zendikar makes any deck able to cast it better is a joke. It's not even clear that he belongs in every token deck (where anthem effects are strongest) let alone every deck. Seriously, Gideon has been around for the better part of a year now and I don't see any metagames warping around his presence.
Edit: In a broad sense I agree with the distaste shown in this thread for game mechanics which can't be interacted with directly. However, none of the existing ones are causing problems. Why? Because while you can't interact with them directly you can do things to limit or eliminate the effect they have on the actual game. Experience counters do nothing without one of 5 creatures in play. Emblems from planeswalkers that don't require a turn or two of ticking up leave the creatures they pump vulnerable. Emblems from planeswalkers that do require a turn or two of ticking up can be interacted with preemptively. Poison counters don't accumulate without small-creature combat.
I'm not trying to say "nothing is broken because removal exists." I'm just trying to point out that these sorts of mechanics are, in fact, interactive.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Edit: feel free to bring up the other Gideons, and why they aren't as awesome as the original.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
"Oh, well...I still have my Oracle of Mul Daya."
"Yeah, not for much longer."
Hazezon is one of the easiest token generators to disrupt (sure, you can build the deck to mess around with bounce shenanigans as "protection," but I always thought that that whole package just ate up space--someone at the table will find a way to excise Hazezon).
Look, the eternal pump is nice. I do not think it's he best move at that four cmc spot in the deck, but I understand its merit.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
On Gideon and emblem, I'm with everyone else not seeing a problem here. Glorious Anthem is pretty bad in this format most of the time. I rarely even see things like Honor of the Pure or Crusade because it's such a minor effect on most boardstates, even at 2 CMC. Making it harder to remove at a higher CMC doesn't really seem like a problem.
Well that's unfortunate, went through all that work to rip on me and completely misses the point entirely how Haz decks function. You wasted 2 paragraphs explaining something that will never happen, grats.
While I do think a permanent Anthem is powerful it was more of a side note, the issue is Wizards pushing permanent effects now for free that cannot be answered, it's not just the power level it's bad game design.
GWRUB[EDH] Reaper KingGWRUB
GW[Legacy] BEARS (#1 Threat in America)GW
UR[Legacy] Arcane MeleeUR
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'