Both cards are very similar in that they cost 3BBB, they have very similar P/T (6/5 vs 5/5 flier), when they ETB a bunch of creatures get -2/-2 until EoT, and when creatures dies something beneficial happens.
Massacre wurm's sweep effect only hits your opponents' creatures, and opponents lose 2 life when a creature they control dies. This generally seems better if you have an aggressive gameplan, as the life loss is more significant when you're applying constant pressure, and you don't lose any board presence.
Demon's sweep effect hits your own creatures as well (aside from demon). When any creature dies you get energy, and essentially for 3 mana and 4 energy you reanimate the best creature in any graveyard. The demon having flying is not irrelevant though it's generally less significant than its other abilities. This generally seems better if you have a midrange/control gameplan as you want to be reanimating several creatures (or at least one powerful one) to get the full value of this card.
Obviously both cards have their strengths and weaknesses, but if you could only choose one card to put in your deck, which would you use? Which scenarios can you see Wurm being superior, and vice versa?
If I could only choose 1 I'd choose the demon. Flying is super relevant and preferable to an additional point of power, and the resurrection ability should always have some juicy targets in a multiplayer game. The life loss on wurm is only better in corner scenarios where you manage to wipe a token army or it etb's multiple times in a turn
In my Chainer, Dementia Master deck, I prefer the Wurm for multiple reanimations as a win condition and a one-sided wrath. In my Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper deck I am considering the demon, but I think Crater Hellion is probably a better option than either of them if you've got red.
This is assuming I'm evaluating them as a wrath effect rather than a value engine. I think Harvester of Souls is a better comparison to the demon as far as black 6-drops that generate value.
If I could only choose 1 I'd choose the demon. Flying is super relevant and preferable to an additional point of power, and the resurrection ability should always have some juicy targets in a multiplayer game. The life loss on wurm is only better in corner scenarios where you manage to wipe a token army or it etb's multiple times in a turn
There's also the fact that the demon doesn't care who controls the creatures. Perfect for Aristocrats.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I plan to stick both my my morph tribal deck (Ixidron+Wurm has been great to me in the past, and I've got several effects to save my 2/2 morphs from the Demon), and replace the Wurm with the Demon in my Ghave deck. Ghave+Demon will be able to generate an absurd amount of energy, especially when combined with Aetherworks Marvel which will make the cut as well.
There is no clear cut winner here. I think the demon is slightly better in a vacuum with the versatility of making energy counters and reanimating stuff but I don't feel all that confident in that assessment. Board state and deck are going to determine which is better at any given time.
in a meta with token decks i think that the worm is back breaking. i played a dimir deck and used rite or replication to boardwipe and kill token decks before. people tend to forget that the second part of the ability isnt a one time thing, its ongoing and if you can easily control the board then it easily kills people.
1. stops graveyard based combo. karimc guide/reveillark is much less of a threat when a wurm says you do this and you die.
2. stops token swarms. avenger of zendikar is much more risky to play when you know your opponent has a wurm in their deck. i've killed a fair number of people this way.
the demon is decent, but the energy counters do literally nothing without it in play. sure. its tempting to live the dream and play it, kill a bunch of tokens and then reanimate some things. but that's going to cost bare minimum 9 mana. thats never going to happen and if it does you were already winning. it also effects your own team, so... yeah. very easily backfires.
The demon looks really good on paper, but unless you treat is as a 9 drop you're probably not going to get to use the reanimate ability.
If you're reanimating or birthing podding it out, it starts to look a lot better. That's where I'd look to run it.
It seems like the amount of life loss massacre wurm inflicts is pretty much always significant. And blasting avenger of zendikar's controller for 12+ is always nice.
Also, I will never stop being disappointed the demon's name didn't turn out to be its translated spoiler season name, Demon of Shady Schemes.
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I'm inclined to choose the wurm as well. 2 damage per creature doesn't seem like a lot, but in my experience it really adds up quick nearly every time I play the guy.
But to look at them in a more stricter sense:
- The Wurm's ability is always relevant except against excessive lifegain decks. Going from 40 to 32 might not seem like much, but people will certainly wish they had that missing 8 life when they're at 12.
- The demon's ability is only relevant in multiples of four (energy/proliferate interactions aside), only if you have the mana to activate the ability before he dies, and only if there is a relevant target in a graveyard to hit.
You could "play him for 9", an opponent then sacrifices or kills a creature in response, and you're stuck at 3 energy and the demon then dies before anything else bumps it up to 4. You could be at 32 energy from playing him after a storm herd but that's not going to be very helpful if there's a smattering of mana dorks in graveyards (or no creatures at all!). Heck, you could need a board answer right now at turn six, only to have him die before you untap.
So I guess to put it plainly: Massacre Wurm has maybe one exclusive zero-effect situation, Demon of Dark Schemes is contingent on a handful of things in order to have an impact on the game. The effect is stronger and more interesting, but that doesn't make it better.
I'd still run the Demon in a variety of decks just because it does interesting things.
I think it is very deck and meta dependent but I would rather have the demon in my decks that could play either. The flying body isn't a bad thing and if left alone can snare you a massive payoff. Even if it comes down, kills a token or two then eats removal I think it would still be worth it.
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The wurm always struck me as a blowout, and I don't think I'd change my mind here. Its ETB effect is fantastic but its death trigger is the part that opponents learn to fear, especially in a format with as many boardwipes as this one. And energy just doesn't seem relevant without a means to use it. So if the demon is the only energy-using card in your deck, the energy is worthless once it's gone. Life loss is almost always relevant.
Apropos of nothing, I can't help but read it as Demon of Dank Schemes.
It's worth noting that demon of dark schemes affects all creatures, while Massacre Wurm is happy to only hurt your opponent's guys. That means Wurm might be good for a big swing, while Demon rarely will. Massacre wurm also kills players vulnerable to it (i.e. token decks) up front, while Demon seems a more well-rounded card against a variety of opponents (i.e. it's not a dead card against non-token decks). It's also worth pointing out that when someone casts Rite of Replication targeting your Massacre Wurm, they probably just win, while if they do it to your Demon, they probably don't (enjoy your energy, pal).
I'll be honest, I don't like Demon much. There are not many playable cards that grant energy, and it'd have to be a pretty weird game to get more than a single animate from him. Seems near-playable, but not quite there. Perhaps the next part of Kaladesh will give us some better energy cards that might make this guy more playable.
Massacre Wurm has always been awkward for me beyond its ETB effect. I have not gotten much mileage out of the life loss of it as in a lot of situations the token decks often run sac outlets or at lest thats been my experience when I see it.
I have been playing with the new Demon for a few weeks now and I feel like I like it a LOT more when playing a control deck as I feel that its recursion pickup is a lot more relevant than some life loss. The life loss thing can work but it seems more relevant for some sort of an aggro deck to pick up on and that just isn't what I am usually playing in black. When it comes to picking up rez vs life loss as the rest of their cards are kind of the same I have to say the rez has been far better for me.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Demon seems decent in a classic Orzhov ghost dad style list that wants to abuse ETB/LTB abilities and get grindy. My current multi player edh list is a an Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim deck with lots of sac/recur/reanimator going on and I think it could definitely have a home in the 99 there. Flavor wise, it's spot on.
The wurm always struck me as a blowout, and I don't think I'd change my mind here. Its ETB effect is fantastic but its death trigger is the part that opponents learn to fear, especially in a format with as many boardwipes as this one. And energy just doesn't seem relevant without a means to use it. So if the demon is the only energy-using card in your deck, the energy is worthless once it's gone. Life loss is almost always relevant.
Apropos of nothing, I can't help but read it as Demon of Dank Schemes.
Basically, this. Most -2/-2 effects, minus a certain white Praetor we've all come to know and love, are used to kill bunches of little creatures. Wurm can eliminate players off killing those little creatures while the Demon cannot, which pretty much seals the deal for me. Massacre Wurm 100% of the time, though I could see running demon along side wurm in decks that need the effect and have ways to use the energy it creates.
Massacre Wurm has always been awkward for me beyond its ETB effect. I have not gotten much mileage out of the life loss of it as in a lot of situations the token decks often run sac outlets or at lest thats been my experience when I see it.
If the token player is running black, Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, and Falkenrath Noble mitigate the effect. If the token player is running white or green, Soul Sisters. They die too, of course, but let's be honest, the real danger of Wurm is being caught with 10+ tokens and suddenly having half your starting life total wiped out. If the token player is running red, expect Goblin Bombardment headed your way. And of course, anthems can negate the -2/-2. With the exception of Soul Sisters (and even then Suture Priest for the mirror match), these are all pretty common.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'm in the "Depends on deck and meta" camp. I have a couple of decks that might want Massacre Wurm but for the most part, in my meta, -2/-2 isn't going to do anything by itself. The life loss would be so minimal that its not even really worth it. However, the Demon seems like it would be good in my Teysa Humanimator Combo deck. Its got a kind of Aristocrats-ish, Reanimator theme to it and killing my doods wouldn't bother me at all. In some cases it would even help me set up my combo. That's not to mention that a reanimator deck would rarely turn down an option that is both a reanimator spell AND reanimator target. I think I like it especially well for my Humanimator deck because I can guarantee getting decent Energy gains of the cast and even the Infinite Combo can generate Infinite Energy. With 6-9 mana on board I can grab a couple fatties each turn even if I have nothing else going in the combo. Again, not generally hard to pull off since its a relatively dedicated Reanimator deck.
There aren't any token decks in my meta either so...
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So the Demon wants me to pay 3BBB then I have to pay even more mana for it to be, maybe, better than the wurm? That is truly a dark scheme and I will not fall for it!
So the Demon wants me to pay 3BBB then I have to pay even more mana for it to be, maybe, better than the wurm? That is truly a dark scheme and I will not fall for it!
Cuz you know, cards that generate a threat beyond just their cast isn't good or anything.
I just run both, especially in my Sedris Reanimator. Even if I am tutoring for one, I just pick the one with the most relevance at the time (wanting to reanimate more stuff or wanting to deal a bunch of damage).
I voted Wurm just because I've seen the wurm actually just kill opponents before. That loss of life is very relevant. Rezzing a creature and having flying are both great but neither of them really matter if you can just kill your opponents.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
So the Demon wants me to pay 3BBB then I have to pay even more mana for it to be, maybe, better than the wurm? That is truly a dark scheme and I will not fall for it!
Cuz you know, cards that generate a threat beyond just their cast isn't good or anything.
If I only had one spot in a deck, I would go with the Wurm all the way. I have killed too many people off it to not include it in any black deck I build. Avenger of Zendikar? Cast Massacre Wurm (with Flash if necessary). Hazezon Tamar? White Sun's Zenith? They become suicide plays with Massacre Wurm while the Demon "only" lets me reanimate a bunch of times.
However, I think the Demon has a place in many decks too. It offers redundancy and lets me take all my opponents creatures that have died (which should have already happened with black Wraths). I think the Demon is a very good card and certian builds, or players, will legitimately find this to be better than the Wurm due to its activated ability. I plan on picking up a couple for some of my decks. I just don't intend to supplant the Wurm.
Both cards are very similar in that they cost 3BBB, they have very similar P/T (6/5 vs 5/5 flier), when they ETB a bunch of creatures get -2/-2 until EoT, and when creatures dies something beneficial happens.
Massacre wurm's sweep effect only hits your opponents' creatures, and opponents lose 2 life when a creature they control dies. This generally seems better if you have an aggressive gameplan, as the life loss is more significant when you're applying constant pressure, and you don't lose any board presence.
Demon's sweep effect hits your own creatures as well (aside from demon). When any creature dies you get energy, and essentially for 3 mana and 4 energy you reanimate the best creature in any graveyard. The demon having flying is not irrelevant though it's generally less significant than its other abilities. This generally seems better if you have a midrange/control gameplan as you want to be reanimating several creatures (or at least one powerful one) to get the full value of this card.
Obviously both cards have their strengths and weaknesses, but if you could only choose one card to put in your deck, which would you use? Which scenarios can you see Wurm being superior, and vice versa?
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
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This is assuming I'm evaluating them as a wrath effect rather than a value engine. I think Harvester of Souls is a better comparison to the demon as far as black 6-drops that generate value.
There's also the fact that the demon doesn't care who controls the creatures. Perfect for Aristocrats.
On phasing:
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why? two biggest reasons:
1. stops graveyard based combo. karimc guide/reveillark is much less of a threat when a wurm says you do this and you die.
2. stops token swarms. avenger of zendikar is much more risky to play when you know your opponent has a wurm in their deck. i've killed a fair number of people this way.
the demon is decent, but the energy counters do literally nothing without it in play. sure. its tempting to live the dream and play it, kill a bunch of tokens and then reanimate some things. but that's going to cost bare minimum 9 mana. thats never going to happen and if it does you were already winning. it also effects your own team, so... yeah. very easily backfires.
If you're reanimating or birthing podding it out, it starts to look a lot better. That's where I'd look to run it.
It seems like the amount of life loss massacre wurm inflicts is pretty much always significant. And blasting avenger of zendikar's controller for 12+ is always nice.
Also, I will never stop being disappointed the demon's name didn't turn out to be its translated spoiler season name, Demon of Shady Schemes.
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But to look at them in a more stricter sense:
- The Wurm's ability is always relevant except against excessive lifegain decks. Going from 40 to 32 might not seem like much, but people will certainly wish they had that missing 8 life when they're at 12.
- The demon's ability is only relevant in multiples of four (energy/proliferate interactions aside), only if you have the mana to activate the ability before he dies, and only if there is a relevant target in a graveyard to hit.
You could "play him for 9", an opponent then sacrifices or kills a creature in response, and you're stuck at 3 energy and the demon then dies before anything else bumps it up to 4. You could be at 32 energy from playing him after a storm herd but that's not going to be very helpful if there's a smattering of mana dorks in graveyards (or no creatures at all!). Heck, you could need a board answer right now at turn six, only to have him die before you untap.
So I guess to put it plainly: Massacre Wurm has maybe one exclusive zero-effect situation, Demon of Dark Schemes is contingent on a handful of things in order to have an impact on the game. The effect is stronger and more interesting, but that doesn't make it better.
I'd still run the Demon in a variety of decks just because it does interesting things.
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Apropos of nothing, I can't help but read it as Demon of Dank Schemes.
I'll be honest, I don't like Demon much. There are not many playable cards that grant energy, and it'd have to be a pretty weird game to get more than a single animate from him. Seems near-playable, but not quite there. Perhaps the next part of Kaladesh will give us some better energy cards that might make this guy more playable.
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I have been playing with the new Demon for a few weeks now and I feel like I like it a LOT more when playing a control deck as I feel that its recursion pickup is a lot more relevant than some life loss. The life loss thing can work but it seems more relevant for some sort of an aggro deck to pick up on and that just isn't what I am usually playing in black. When it comes to picking up rez vs life loss as the rest of their cards are kind of the same I have to say the rez has been far better for me.
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Basically, this. Most -2/-2 effects, minus a certain white Praetor we've all come to know and love, are used to kill bunches of little creatures. Wurm can eliminate players off killing those little creatures while the Demon cannot, which pretty much seals the deal for me. Massacre Wurm 100% of the time, though I could see running demon along side wurm in decks that need the effect and have ways to use the energy it creates.
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If the token player is running black, Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, and Falkenrath Noble mitigate the effect. If the token player is running white or green, Soul Sisters. They die too, of course, but let's be honest, the real danger of Wurm is being caught with 10+ tokens and suddenly having half your starting life total wiped out. If the token player is running red, expect Goblin Bombardment headed your way. And of course, anthems can negate the -2/-2. With the exception of Soul Sisters (and even then Suture Priest for the mirror match), these are all pretty common.
After that, you can just cast, well...white has Swords to Plowshares, Reprisal, and Path to Exile; blue has Pongify/Rapid Hybridization and Curse of the Swine; black has Hero's Downfall and Dismember; red has Soul's Fire and all the Fireball variants; green has fight spells, Song of the Dryads, Beast Within, and the newer green Soul's Fire variants; and even colorless has Scour from Existence. Assuming Grave Pact or something like it hasn't killed the Wurm already.
On phasing:
There aren't any token decks in my meta either so...
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Cuz you know, cards that generate a threat beyond just their cast isn't good or anything.
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EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
However, I think the Demon has a place in many decks too. It offers redundancy and lets me take all my opponents creatures that have died (which should have already happened with black Wraths). I think the Demon is a very good card and certian builds, or players, will legitimately find this to be better than the Wurm due to its activated ability. I plan on picking up a couple for some of my decks. I just don't intend to supplant the Wurm.