I want to know how you sneakily and cunningly influence others to do something in your favour. In my EDH group, politicking is expected but I want to do it in a subtle way so that I can catch a win under the radar. So, any stories?
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Sometimes, when I know someone has drawn a removal spell and there is something on the battlefield that needs to die, I'll say, "hey what's that card do?" or "what is that card down there, I can't read it." It draws attention to the threat without me blatantly saying "kill that thing plx".
Similarly, I'll ask the blue players "How many cards in hand? Eleven? Oh my goodness."
I will sometimes actually volunteer to take the early damage from utility dorks, so When the bigger threats come down the owners will tend to "spread the love" somewhere else.
Honestly though, I find myself relying less on politics these days, and more so just playing the game at face value. If I'm the threat, I'll acknowledge it and comment that my Survival of the Fittest is a problem that's going to win me the game if someone doesn't stop it. I don't have much patience for the old "mess with me and you'll regret it" and "oh no don't attack poor little me" style of politics -- we're all trying to win, you're not fooling anybody.
Honestly though, I find myself relying less on politics these days, and more so just playing the game at face value. If I'm the threat, I'll acknowledge it and comment that my Survival of the Fittest is a problem that's going to win me the game if someone doesn't stop it. I don't have much patience for the old "mess with me and you'll regret it" and "oh no don't attack poor little me" style of politics -- we're all trying to win, you're not fooling anybody.
Building a reputation of being honest about stuff in game is a valuable political tool, too. Politics doesn't have to be lying. "You don't want to attack me" (holding removal in hand) is very effective at deterring attacks when you've got a reputation for not bluffing. And if they actually don't attack you, you can keep using that threat of several turns until someone finally walks into your removal.
That kind of reputation also makes people more inclined to listen to you when you offer them promises.
I will sometimes actually volunteer to take the early damage from utility dorks, so When the bigger threats come down the owners will tend to "spread the love" somewhere else.
Mostly just this one for me. It's about as subtle as I can manage when it comes to politics. I've also been known to lay a card from my hand face-down on the table and say "here's my answer" when an opponent is eyeing the table during their combat step.
Whether it's an actual answer or not, well... go on, attack me. I dare you.
Alerting people to threats on the board and, more importantly, when combo players cast a tutor, are obvious but essential tactics for good politicking.
There are a few ways to appear impartial yet also persuade people to use their removal elsewhere. if someone casts, say, terastodon, and one of your permanents is one of the obvious choices, then you should be the one to suggest your permanent dies. It will die anyway so you may as well get credit for the decision. And sometimes, if I have half of one combo on the battlefield but I'm looking to win with a different combo, I might mention how dangerous the combo piece I have is since I don't care if it gets removed. Also, encouraging people to attack you early on with weak threats tends to send them swinging at others in subsequent rounds when those threats are more dangerous. All these things make you appear trustworthy, at which time people are more likely to be swayed by you when you suggest they use their removal on things you can't deal with.
Edit: incidentally, when people threaten others about having removal if they get attacked, I always attack them if I can. I don't want their ploy to work and I'm always happy to get people to use up their removal on one of my beaters. Better that than my general. Plus, the other players see me eating removal for the greater good so they're less inclined to keep hitting me, and I'm creating an opening in that player's defenses for others to take advantage of.
Sequencing your plays in a specific way can help. Drop your nasty ***** after someone else does and it looks like you are just "keeping up with the jones'". Its like a nuclear arms race thing. "Its not me. I wouldn't have to do this if they weren't. I'm just protecting myself." It works especially well if you really freak out when you see that Grave Titan. Like, "Damn. That guy is so good." and then play your Frost Titan. When someone comments on one of your guys compare it to something already on board or something you killed earlier and make it sound scarier. Like "Oh man, I know Frost Titan is really good. But that Grave Titan doh amirite? Tokens for days. Can't leave that guy on table and things get nuts fast. Thats why I had to kill it. The only thing Frosty has going for him is a little extra mana to kill him =\" Even if thats a legit good ability when you compare it to something that's even more legit you kind of force people to look at your threats through a different lens. Its a small thing but it helps.
A well placed "uh oh" can buy you a turn or two of peace and quiet.
Haha this is so true. If you show extreme displeasure every time you draw a card it makes them think that you are drawing *****ty or useless cards and your hand is *****. It will occasionally cause them to pity you until you become more of a threat. You can sandbag your plays like that so even though your board state is advancing it looks like you are really struggling to do anything. Just don't do it all the time and it will remain believable.
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Sometimes, when I know someone has drawn a removal spell and there is something on the battlefield that needs to die, I'll say, "hey what's that card do?" or "what is that card down there, I can't read it." It draws attention to the threat without me blatantly saying "kill that thing plx".
I like!
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
A well-timed vote card actually makes people look hard at the current board state. Council's Judgment is great for that, and how people act shows to others their priorities at that time. Also, it's fun to just make people argue about the best choice.
I try to point out the legit threats, but try to not overly exaggerate or appear like I'm playing mindgames.
Sometimes the less information you share while emphasizing a possible threat can help too. A frequent saying could be "I know what your deck does." or "Are you about to kill the table again?" Points some attention at someone specific while not even explaining why they may (or may not be) a threat. Also pretty good to say that in response to someone arguing about being the target of random removal spells.
playing the honesty card is defo one of the best long-long term-strategies in existence, esepecially if you play the same folks over and over.
otherwise, playing a somewhat underpowered deck compared to the other players can help too (my deck is a "try-to-kill-people-with-squire-themed-deck", but make sure that you have enough outs when things get serious).
another thing is that at least here, we sometimes play (and lose) the brinkmanship game; i.e. someone has a threat on the table that needs to go, but no one that has the removal for it wants to use it 'cuz they think someone else will use their resources first. that's why when someone combos off, unless im not sure if someone else can stop it, i tend to pass priority.
ive heard some people say that throwing away games for winning future games is a good idea - im not sure if it is. i remember hearing about a guy who'd completely throw his game just to make good on a "don't come my way, bro" threat, and did that for a couple of months.. it ended up with him not being touched in games, but the atmosphere around the guy kinda soured.. i dont think any game is worth winning at the cost of a caustic play-environemnt.
one other trick is to play other diplomacy-based games - cosmic encounter, diplomacy, etc..
playing the honesty card is defo one of the best long-long term-strategies in existence, esepecially if you play the same folks over and over.
otherwise, playing a somewhat underpowered deck compared to the other players can help too (my deck is a "try-to-kill-people-with-squire-themed-deck", but make sure that you have enough outs when things get serious).
I have screwed up with this so hard that my playgroup nicknamed me satan and also the games have kinda degenerated to archenemy against my decks and especially my most recent grenzo deck that steals everyone's stuff. I would really say that if you screw up like me it's good to just try and come up with new stuff every once in a while to keep your enemies guessing cause I used to play heavy recursion combo decks and then I had to deal with graveyard hate for a few weeks and then I just changed up my strategy. When I changed decks my opponents kinda laid off for a bit until they figured out that my new deck is stupid. So I would say that if you **** up like me just go and make multiple versions of your decks that can beat the meta.
Sometimes you just end up well-positioned and the perfect deal comes to you. The other night a Kamahl, Fist of Krosa player offered to not attack me for a turn I didn't remove his commander with the removal we both knew I had in hand. I agreed. The Kamahl player animated some lands and cast Craterhoof Behemoth to kill the other player (a fourth player had been eliminated earlier).
I untapped and just barely managed to kill the Kamahl player.
Keep your combo pieces in hand until you're ready to blow up
Overextending in other decks is just as bad. If you learn to hold back some threats you can spare them the wrath and spare yourself some aggro.
Learn whether your group responds positively to "whining". It doesn't actually have to be whining but if you keep getting nailed and you feel like you're not worth the aggro, bring it up. Why you gotta bully me? What about their board state? Have you checked the life totals recently because I'm at 9 and everyone else is at 35? Some groups are just going to kill you harder for trying to sway their actions.
Learn whether your group is vindictive or not. I play Diaochan, Artful Beauty in my Feldon deck and its a great politic tool that teaches you a lot about revenge and threat analysis. I've often killed a player's critter and then given them the second pick: do you revenge kill Feldon because I took out Mizzix, or do you nuke that Vorinclex over there? It gives some real insight into the mind of your opponents, depending on what they pick.
A good option I've found is Propaganda effects. They're subtle because they feel very defensive, but they lead to "**** no, I'm not going to be the one to pay mana to attack that".
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I have a semi-notorious penchant for presenting too much threat early, getting wrenched, and then leveraging my appearance of having been beaten out of the game to fly under the radar until I go off from almost zero presence to victory in a single turn.
I'll second or third the honesty card. In my playgroup, It is often archenemy vs. me and I'll admit, I still win the majority of the time. However, when someone comes after me, I tell them straight up: let me be or you'll regret it. After enough times of regretting it, they finally started letting me be or learning to attack me before I set up. Even then, the attrition rate almost guarantees they lose to the next player. I freely admit, I'm a douche...
Another thing I feel that can help is too not be the one combo player in your group. I am really the only player in my playgroup that uses a lot of combos even when not infinite it practically ends the game like chaining extra turns together. Combos or just crazy synergy can really make opponents salty.
One specific thing that most of the more experienced people in my playgorup do is bluff with land tapping. For instance, having three lands out (Bayou, Tropical Island and an Island) and "wondering" whether to tap either Bayou or Tropical Island for your mana dork, then tapping the Tropical Island and immediately taking the action back and tapping the Bayou so you have two mana sources open. This way you opponents play around your non-existent counterspell. The other even spicier variant of this bluff is to tap all your blue mana sources and leave something innocuous open (like a Plains or Ancient Tomb), only to surprise your opponent with a Warping Wail or Mana Tithe. Admittedly, these bluffs are also related to specific deckbuilding choices, but they can be used often and with different kinds of interaction spells.
Like some others here, I've found that being honest and seemingly naive is generally the best way to go. Drawing attention to your opponents powerful cards by asking to read them is a wonderful tactic as is asking how much life people have or cards in hand.
"Scratch my Back" strategies also play a good role as well with things like "You can attack me and get trigger X if you let me do Y to someone else" as it develops the persona of someone fair who will allow others to play their game.
The final way I've found works is opponent revenge with cards like Rite of the Raging Storm. It cant come at you so other players have a tendency to throw it straight back at the last person to use it against them and even though you are the root cause of the damage it isn't associated with you whilst putting you ahead.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
A few weeks back I was playing with a group of people I had never met before. I had Pyxis of Pandemonium in play — an important combo piece for my deck — and had exiled at least five cards from each player with it. The player furthest away from me at the table wasn't quite sure what the Pyxis did, but was contemplating blowing it up. He asks me, "What happens if I destroy the jar?" I respond with, "If you destroy it, then all of your cards are lost forever." That got a quick "Oh" from him, and he decided to leave it alone.
I felt so smooth for persuading him not to blow up my jar there. I wasn't lying to him when I said that his cards would be lost forever, but neither did I explain the implications of leaving it around. I can't recall exactly how that game ended, but I think I ended up "winning" it.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Like some others here, I've found that being honest and seemingly naive is generally the best way to go. Drawing attention to your opponents powerful cards by asking to read them is a wonderful tactic as is asking how much life people have or cards in hand.
"Scratch my Back" strategies also play a good role as well with things like "You can attack me and get trigger X if you let me do Y to someone else" as it develops the persona of someone fair who will allow others to play their game.
The final way I've found works is opponent revenge with cards like Rite of the Raging Storm. It cant come at you so other players have a tendency to throw it straight back at the last person to use it against them and even though you are the root cause of the damage it isn't associated with you whilst putting you ahead.
Oh god I love Rite of the Raging Storm for that very reason! Its so good. Crown of Doom and Assault Suit can also be fun. Assault Suit on your Aurelia commander is silly =P.
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A few weeks back I was playing with a group of people I had never met before. I had Pyxis of Pandemonium in play — an important combo piece for my deck — and had exiled at least five cards from each player with it. The player furthest away from me at the table wasn't quite sure what the Pyxis did, but was contemplating blowing it up. He asks me, "What happens if I destroy the jar?" I respond with, "If you destroy it, then all of your cards are lost forever." That got a quick "Oh" from him, and he decided to leave it alone.
I felt so smooth for persuading him not to blow up my jar there. I wasn't lying to him when I said that his cards would be lost forever, but neither did I explain the implications of leaving it around. I can't recall exactly how that game ended, but I think I ended up "winning" it.
Out of curiousity, may I ask what it combos with?
My group has some level of politics, but thankfully we're all pretty much the same level and we don't tend to be jerks about stuff. The main one I've used is the ole' 'Lemme hit you with Sidisi, and you can hit me back with [insert creature with attack trigger]'.
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Aside from Scroll Rack and Unwinding Clock, Pyxis of Pandemonium doesn't combo with anything per se. It's the cards that I stick underneath it that make the combo. I wish I had a decklist uploaded on MTGS to link you, but I haven't finished writing up the thread yet. It's really something special. My goal is to have it completed once the new 4 color legends are revealed.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Aside from Scroll Rack and Unwinding Clock, Pyxis of Pandemonium doesn't combo with anything per se. It's the cards that I stick underneath it that make the combo. I wish I had a decklist uploaded on MTGS to link you, but I haven't finished writing up the thread yet. It's really something special. My goal is to have it completed once the new 4 color legends are revealed.
Cool! I traded for my buddy's two copies ages ago, thinking I would use them, then literally never used them ever. I considered them for a Processor deck, but never got around to it...
I'd love to see your list! I'll keep an eye out for it when the new Commander decks come out...
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
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Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Similarly, I'll ask the blue players "How many cards in hand? Eleven? Oh my goodness."
I will sometimes actually volunteer to take the early damage from utility dorks, so When the bigger threats come down the owners will tend to "spread the love" somewhere else.
Honestly though, I find myself relying less on politics these days, and more so just playing the game at face value. If I'm the threat, I'll acknowledge it and comment that my Survival of the Fittest is a problem that's going to win me the game if someone doesn't stop it. I don't have much patience for the old "mess with me and you'll regret it" and "oh no don't attack poor little me" style of politics -- we're all trying to win, you're not fooling anybody.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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That kind of reputation also makes people more inclined to listen to you when you offer them promises.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Mostly just this one for me. It's about as subtle as I can manage when it comes to politics. I've also been known to lay a card from my hand face-down on the table and say "here's my answer" when an opponent is eyeing the table during their combat step.
Whether it's an actual answer or not, well... go on, attack me. I dare you.
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
There are a few ways to appear impartial yet also persuade people to use their removal elsewhere. if someone casts, say, terastodon, and one of your permanents is one of the obvious choices, then you should be the one to suggest your permanent dies. It will die anyway so you may as well get credit for the decision. And sometimes, if I have half of one combo on the battlefield but I'm looking to win with a different combo, I might mention how dangerous the combo piece I have is since I don't care if it gets removed. Also, encouraging people to attack you early on with weak threats tends to send them swinging at others in subsequent rounds when those threats are more dangerous. All these things make you appear trustworthy, at which time people are more likely to be swayed by you when you suggest they use their removal on things you can't deal with.
Edit: incidentally, when people threaten others about having removal if they get attacked, I always attack them if I can. I don't want their ploy to work and I'm always happy to get people to use up their removal on one of my beaters. Better that than my general. Plus, the other players see me eating removal for the greater good so they're less inclined to keep hitting me, and I'm creating an opening in that player's defenses for others to take advantage of.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Haha this is so true. If you show extreme displeasure every time you draw a card it makes them think that you are drawing *****ty or useless cards and your hand is *****. It will occasionally cause them to pity you until you become more of a threat. You can sandbag your plays like that so even though your board state is advancing it looks like you are really struggling to do anything. Just don't do it all the time and it will remain believable.
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I like!
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Sometimes the less information you share while emphasizing a possible threat can help too. A frequent saying could be "I know what your deck does." or "Are you about to kill the table again?" Points some attention at someone specific while not even explaining why they may (or may not be) a threat. Also pretty good to say that in response to someone arguing about being the target of random removal spells.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
otherwise, playing a somewhat underpowered deck compared to the other players can help too (my deck is a "try-to-kill-people-with-squire-themed-deck", but make sure that you have enough outs when things get serious).
another thing is that at least here, we sometimes play (and lose) the brinkmanship game; i.e. someone has a threat on the table that needs to go, but no one that has the removal for it wants to use it 'cuz they think someone else will use their resources first. that's why when someone combos off, unless im not sure if someone else can stop it, i tend to pass priority.
ive heard some people say that throwing away games for winning future games is a good idea - im not sure if it is. i remember hearing about a guy who'd completely throw his game just to make good on a "don't come my way, bro" threat, and did that for a couple of months.. it ended up with him not being touched in games, but the atmosphere around the guy kinda soured.. i dont think any game is worth winning at the cost of a caustic play-environemnt.
one other trick is to play other diplomacy-based games - cosmic encounter, diplomacy, etc..
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I untapped and just barely managed to kill the Kamahl player.
Overextending in other decks is just as bad. If you learn to hold back some threats you can spare them the wrath and spare yourself some aggro.
Learn whether your group responds positively to "whining". It doesn't actually have to be whining but if you keep getting nailed and you feel like you're not worth the aggro, bring it up. Why you gotta bully me? What about their board state? Have you checked the life totals recently because I'm at 9 and everyone else is at 35? Some groups are just going to kill you harder for trying to sway their actions.
Learn whether your group is vindictive or not. I play Diaochan, Artful Beauty in my Feldon deck and its a great politic tool that teaches you a lot about revenge and threat analysis. I've often killed a player's critter and then given them the second pick: do you revenge kill Feldon because I took out Mizzix, or do you nuke that Vorinclex over there? It gives some real insight into the mind of your opponents, depending on what they pick.
A lot of politics, imo, is knowing your group.
On phasing:
Most Used (of many dozens) EDH Decks:
Brago, King Eternal - Stax
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - Aggro Combo
Wort, the Raidmother - Spellslinger Swarm Control
Animar, Soul of Elements - Tempo Combo
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Spellslinger
Exodia the Forbidden One:
Oona, Queen of the Fae - Combowins.dec
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
"Scratch my Back" strategies also play a good role as well with things like "You can attack me and get trigger X if you let me do Y to someone else" as it develops the persona of someone fair who will allow others to play their game.
The final way I've found works is opponent revenge with cards like Rite of the Raging Storm. It cant come at you so other players have a tendency to throw it straight back at the last person to use it against them and even though you are the root cause of the damage it isn't associated with you whilst putting you ahead.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
A few weeks back I was playing with a group of people I had never met before. I had Pyxis of Pandemonium in play — an important combo piece for my deck — and had exiled at least five cards from each player with it. The player furthest away from me at the table wasn't quite sure what the Pyxis did, but was contemplating blowing it up. He asks me, "What happens if I destroy the jar?" I respond with, "If you destroy it, then all of your cards are lost forever." That got a quick "Oh" from him, and he decided to leave it alone.
I felt so smooth for persuading him not to blow up my jar there. I wasn't lying to him when I said that his cards would be lost forever, but neither did I explain the implications of leaving it around. I can't recall exactly how that game ended, but I think I ended up "winning" it.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Oh god I love Rite of the Raging Storm for that very reason! Its so good. Crown of Doom and Assault Suit can also be fun. Assault Suit on your Aurelia commander is silly =P.
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Out of curiousity, may I ask what it combos with?
My group has some level of politics, but thankfully we're all pretty much the same level and we don't tend to be jerks about stuff. The main one I've used is the ole' 'Lemme hit you with Sidisi, and you can hit me back with [insert creature with attack trigger]'.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Aside from Scroll Rack and Unwinding Clock, Pyxis of Pandemonium doesn't combo with anything per se. It's the cards that I stick underneath it that make the combo. I wish I had a decklist uploaded on MTGS to link you, but I haven't finished writing up the thread yet. It's really something special. My goal is to have it completed once the new 4 color legends are revealed.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Cool! I traded for my buddy's two copies ages ago, thinking I would use them, then literally never used them ever. I considered them for a Processor deck, but never got around to it...
I'd love to see your list! I'll keep an eye out for it when the new Commander decks come out...
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.