Well, this problem could occur with legal cards, too, for example with a different language, altered art or full art.
Sorry, I don't know what Lightning Helix does!
It's funny that you mention the full art textless promos as an example because none of those cards were ever permanents; they were all instants and sorceries. With instances and sorceries, being textless isn't as problematic since you can simply explain what the card does as you cast it and then everyone can forget about it after its resolved and put into the graveyard. Not the case with permanents though.
Generally, I feel exactly the same way about foreign cards as I do about shoddy proxies; they cause unnecessary headaches. Unless you can read the language that the card is printed on, it would be doing everyone a favor if you just opted to play a version in your native language. Granted, foreign cards aren't as problematic as lousy proxies since, as I mentioned before, players tend to recognize cards by their artwork. So, if a player were to put a foreign card into play, at least their opponents who were already familiar with what the card did could recognize it at a distance. Sharpie proxies? Not so much.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Only proxy cards I own - if someone insists I use the genuine article, I'll happily comply - but it's going to take 15 minutes to sort through my decks.
I only have one Timetwister. No one complains that I have proxies for the real one.
I own one 'pimped' out deck, Maelstrom Wanderer. There are many expeditions, alters, foreign cards, and foils. Many of those cards are 'sraoles', and I proxy them in other decks. I make sure they look nice and are easy to see.
Also, I find proxies are useful if there is no printing of a card with up to date Oracle wordings. Especially if they are functional. I have a proxied version of Chains of Mephistopheles that has a flow chart printed on the card,that helps newer players.
I'm kind of amused by the people saying that they only proxy staple cards that have gotten expensive since they started playing. It's kind of an arbitrary line in the sand.
Yeah, I agree. If the staple card was affordable before and it was such a staple, why didn't they purchase it? It becoming expensive doesn't all of the sudden give carte blanche to say, "Oh, well, I guess I'll just play it for free now." I started playing in 2009 in Shards/Zendikar Standard. I made the mistake of not buying into the Zendikar fetches when they were only $15-$20 each. Now that they are anywhere between $60-$90, I haven't been willing to drop the money on them. Consequently, I have learned to play without them in EDH.
At the end of the day, this is a hobby and hobbies take money. No, I don't expect players to buy 5 copies of Mana Crypt if they want to run it in 5 decks. 1 copy is enough for me. I just want you to own the card that you are going to proxy if you need it in more than one deck. I understand the convenience of not having to swap cards between decks and I support it.
Things like Mana Drain are more than I am willing to spend on a card. The most I've ever spent on a card other than Gaea's Cradle was $70 for a Mox Diamond. That means that, if I don't own the Mana Drain because I'm not going to spend $200 for one, then I'm not going to proxy it. So, understandably, I'm probably going to get pretty annoyed when I get blown out by another player's FoW or Mana Drain proxy when they aren't willing to spend the money on the card. No, I'm never going to buy more than one Cradle to play it in the 3-4 decks I plan to slot it into, but I ponied up the cash if I wanted to play it in my deck.
I mean, really, there is a total lack of humility there. How does someone justify playing proxies of things they don't own (usually totaling thousands of dollars) against someone who is playing within their budget?
Sure, I'd like to drop $3000 on an EDH deck so I can play all the fetches and duals and expensive counterspells, artifacts, tutors, and wheels. I'd love to run Chains of Mephistopheles in my Nath deck. However, my budget restricts me from doing that if I want to have multiple EDH decks, so I make decisions to not use cards that are too expensive that don't give me enough of a return.
Where is the sense of pride or victory when you win with a 100% proxied deck that you never intend to own or when you beat someone because you have $1500 worth of proxied cards against your opponent's somewhat unoptimized list because they can't afford the Zendikar fetches, much less the ABU duals and pricy fast mana that you are running?
I guess running proxies of cards you don't own can be okay if everyone else is also doing it, but playing those proxies against anyone who is on a budget and doesn't use proxies has to be a pretty hollow feeling. I think this is especially pervasive in cEDH where I notice players running $4000-$6000 dollar decks on TappedOut where they don't own a single fetch, dual, reserved list card, Vintage staple, P3K card, etc. in paper. Do those players actually take their deck to a competitive event with the proxies? And, if they do, how is that remotely fair against a player that doesn't proxy all those expensive cards they don't own? My competitive Narset list has a couple proxies, but only of cards that I own. If I went to event, I'd swap those proxies out for the actual card to minimize any issues. If that event had prizes and I was playing against someone who was allowed to play with proxies like the ones I mentioned above, I'd feel especially cheated. I hear people say things like they "don't want budget to be the deciding factor in games" and then use that to justify making a copy of a card that costs $800 like Imperial Seal. When not everyone is proxying cards and you are though, don't your proxies effectively mean that your budget is deciding the game? Those that do this are creating the exact problem that they are complaining about when they proxy to begin with.
Overall, I think your budget should dictate the cards you run and that proxying cards you don't own or plan to own is pretty cheap and hollow when you're running them against people that aren't playing the same way.
Overall, I think your budget should dictate the cards you run and that proxying cards you don't own or plan to own is pretty cheap and hollow when you're running them against people that aren't playing the same way.
This probably has something to do with why I don't mind proxies. My mtg budget exceeds the mtg budgets of most people I play with and I've been in and out of the game for a long time. I don't like playing with proxies, but I can also run just about any card I want to. If someone else wants to run something that they can't afford, I'm not offended by that. Being more invested in the game doesn't entitle me to a higher win percentage (especially in a casual format) and you can make a deck that's truly terrible to play against without spending a lot of money on it. I would rather play against interesting decks with the cards they need to function than obnoxious budget decks. If proxies help with that, cool. If my opponents want to build with what they have, also cool.
The only reason I find that reasoning funny is because I don't see why it makes a difference if a card jumped to $20 in the last three years or if it's been there since 1995. It's just an interesting way to choose what you're personally OK with.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
I don't mind proxies in the testing phase for myself. But once I'm done testing and cards have made the cut I can't play with the deck until it is fully built.
Other people using proxies: I appreciate a little effort, I do not like sharpies just scrawled over the face of the card. Having a nice looking printout is always better in my opinion.
i personally don't really care about the proxies, though i do appreciate it when people make pretty looking proxies. I saw (albeit on the internet) an image of someone who wrote with a pen:
"that land that makes all other lands -> B", on a forest. couldn't even find a swamp to do it on! on the other side, ive seen folks who've basically improved the original as a very well-done proxy (saw someone with john simm as the master from dr who).
at least even if i don't recognise the card from across the table, i'd rather see something that looks like something than something that might misrepresent the board state (not that i'd take the games seriously enough to care too much).
If you don't want to play your Tabernacle or switch your dual lands around, having proxies of them is fine.
If you're ordering the card and it's coming next week, having a proxy of it is fine.
But just scribbling or making a photocopy of something because you want to power up your deck, no thanks.
I'd be fine with it for testing purposes or whatever, but overall you should play with what you have.
Caveat: If your playgroup can roll with your all-proxied deck for fun or whatnot, then by all means do so!
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
In my casual playgroup, I actively encourage people to proxy their decks. I tell them they should net deck, and see what a 'competitive' deck feels like. Players should know what it is like to play with combo decks like Hermit Druid, Food Chain, Boonweaver Giant, and Doomsday. They should know what it is like to pilot stax decks like Grand Arbiter Augustin IV and Anafenza, the Foremost. Once they know how to pilot a deck, they know more about its weaknesses and how to play against it.
In fact, in addition to my own 'real' decks, I have a few proxied decks that I loan out to people that are trying to get more into CEDH. Often, people find that they don't enjoy playing a certain style, and I think that's great. Occasionally, I have had people find that they were really good at piloting a certain archetype that they didn't like so much before (most commonly stax).
TLDR: Let people proxy, it makes them better players.
Basic rule in our LGS: "We're fine with proxies, provided they are cards you are actually going to buy in a reasonably short timeframe, cards that you're just giving a quick test, or if you have them elsewhere and can show them." It works out well, it doesn't hurt that our LGS isn't all that heavy on high-priced decks anyway.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I have very mixed feelings about proxies. I'm someone who can afford to spend more than a lot of players on cards, and who started playing with beta and who still owns a lot of the old cards, but even with these factors, and even though I own a lot of pricey cards, I don't proxy for things I don't own, and if I only have one copy of an expensive card, I play that card in only one deck, period. Thus, since I own only one copy each of Mana Drain, Nether Void, The Abyss, Moat and Mishra's Workshop, I play those cards in only one deck, even though they would all be good in a wide range of decks, and since I don't own Chains of Mephistopheles, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Timetwister or Liliana of the Veil, I don't run those cards in any decks at all. I have multiple copies of all of the ABUR duals, but since I have a lot of decks (50, currently), not all of them include those duals or other maximized manabases, because I also refuse to proxy up dozens of copies of duals, quality fetchlands, etc. Some of my decks make do with lesser fetches, including things like Evolving Wilds. And you know what? Those decks still win, because while a lot of pricey cards do convey some advantage, no card is so good that it is necessary to win in a format like Commander.
I understand and have a certain degree of sympathy for the fact that a lot of players are on a tight budget, and I don't have an issue with someone like that, especially if they are a newer player, running proxies of the Ravnica duals or occasionally something like Cavern of Souls, but I am not okay with people running decks with multiple proxies of expensive cards they have no intention of ever owning, and this is particularly true of things like Imperial Seal. I have never actually seen a copy of that card, and look forward to having that experience some day, but meanwhile, no, I'm not okay playing against your proxy deck that includes proxies of Seal, Tabernacle, Mana Drain and a pile of other cards that would put the cost of your deck at around $4000 if you were playing with the actual cards. Why not play something made up of cards you actually own, and consider trading for a copy of Demonic Tutor if you really want your deck to have good tutors...or just including more card draw to help get what you need out of your deck?
And whatever proxies you do run, please take the time to at least make them presentable. Don't just grab a black Sharpie and scribble "Damnation" on a stray goblin token; at least take the time to print out a legible proxy from magiccards.info or someplace like that.
I think proxies for cards that you are playtesting, especially if they aren't released yet, are fine. I don't do that, but I have no problem with someone playing around with, for example, some of the Kaladesh cards a couple weeks early. Something I'm also okay with, and which I will do from time to time, is to use a proxy in place of something that one has ordered but which hasn't arrived yet, or which one is planning to get but just hasn't located yet. My newest deck (Arianna, Captain of the Guard) includes a proxied Hero of Bladehold because I didn't have an extra on hand, but have one coming my way via ebay. It doesn't include a proxy Plateau or Arid Mesa, though, because all the copies I own of those are in other decks and I'm not currently planning to purchase additional copies. If I do pick up another Plateau some time (via PucaTrade, where several of the duals are on my want list and well within the amount of points I have there, or perhaps on ebay, where I frequently check for good deals on slightly played copies), I will slot it in then, but meanwhile, that deck seems to be doing fine with a less-optimiezed manabase (including Terramorphic Expanse), and if I change my mind and decide it really needs the Plateau now, I will take one out of another deck and put it in Arianna.
Oh, and I am completely okay with people running Collector's Edition versions of cards and other cards printed by WotC but which are not legal in tournaments. Those are actual cards, and since I don't play in tournaments, I don't see an issue with it.
I know lots of players that proxy decks to test and refine them before committing money. I imagine im not alone in saying that I've thought up a deck, built it and played it only to find that it isnt as much fun as I would have liked before ripping it apart for parts. For this purpose proxy away.
The one that bothers me a little when somebody proxies really cheap or absurdly expensive/ powerful cards. If its really cheap (<£1) then it's just lazy and in most cases looks awful. If its really expensive/powerful then the odds are that im not playing it for the same reasons as you so would appreciate it if you didnt but if you feel the need for it and want to invest then its not like I can say no.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
Only time i proxy is in the deck building/testing phase, figuring out what works and what doesn't
I have a lot of decks and i just work with what i have, they may not be perfect but they work.
I also would NEVER proxy and an LGS, it is really an insult to them and their business. We had an issue with a player that had proxies in her deck at a tournament and it did not go well/was not pretty.
As far as kitchen table when you are playing with friends, that is really up to you/your group. I would never "power up" a deck for kitchen table, generally the group has the same power level and budget so if i dont have a mana crypt ect for every deck that is fine. i have one judge crypt and one EMA one but i am not going to optimize every deck i play, takes some of the fun from EDH
It's somewhat aggravating when my friend proxies all 10 ABUR duals and fetches in his Sliver Queen deck and has no problem casting anything on curve while I made do with shocks, khan fetches, CIPT lands and green ramp in my Scion of Ur-dragon and have to spend the first couple of turns just mana-fixing.
It's things like this why people have such a distaste for proxies. It has the stereotype of being some kid with a printer and some card stock and they just start printing their own versions of cards worth thousands of dollars in total without considering that they're wildly powering up their decks. I spent hundreds to make decent 3-color mana bases over time. Putting himself at such an advantage over you, nightwyrm, seems almost like spitting in your face.
I think the above situation greatly depends on group power level and meta.
If your playgroup is the type where games last until turn 20+, people generally don't do anything interesting until turn five, and gunning for quick combo wins is considered bad manners, then the dual + fetch mana base isn't really doing a whole lot anyway, except frustrating the other players.
I can understand the equalizing factor proxies have in more "early play-heavy" playgroups however, where you need to be able to swords to plowshares that turn-one hermit druid and/or shattering spree that mana crypt into sol ring turn one play. Generally in my experience people who belong to those playgroups tend to be very pro-proxy anyway since they enjoy the equal playing field.
It's somewhat aggravating when my friend proxies all 10 ABUR duals and fetches in his Sliver Queen deck and has no problem casting anything on curve while I made do with shocks, khan fetches, CIPT lands and green ramp in my Scion of Ur-dragon and have to spend the first couple of turns just mana-fixing.
As RivenVII notes, this is a perfect example of why proxying can suck. Pro-proxy people talk about proxying letting people play on an even field, and in some metagames, particularly those (often more competitive ones) in which proxying is the norm and actively encouraged and expected, that may well be the case, but in a lot of cases, heavy proxying gives those players who to it an unfair advantage over people who play within their means.
Seriously, unless you are playing in which turn-five wins are considered long games, you really don't need to proxy to play enjoyable and interesting games of Commander, or to win those games. Just play with what you own, or at most, very selectively proxy a few key cards you don't own but feel your deck really needs while planning to eventually pick up those cards. That will make it feel a lot more satisfying when you eventually do obtain those cards.
It's somewhat aggravating when my friend proxies all 10 ABUR duals and fetches in his Sliver Queen deck and has no problem casting anything on curve while I made do with shocks, khan fetches, CIPT lands and green ramp in my Scion of Ur-dragon and have to spend the first couple of turns just mana-fixing.
As RivenVII notes, this is a perfect example of why proxying can suck. Pro-proxy people talk about proxying letting people play on an even field, and in some metagames, particularly those (often more competitive ones) in which proxying is the norm and actively encouraged and expected, that may well be the case, but in a lot of cases, heavy proxying gives those players who to it an unfair advantage over people who play within their means.
Seriously, unless you are playing in which turn-five wins are considered long games, you really don't need to proxy to play enjoyable and interesting games of Commander, or to win those games. Just play with what you own, or at most, very selectively proxy a few key cards you don't own but feel your deck really needs while planning to eventually pick up those cards. That will make it feel a lot more satisfying when you eventually do obtain those cards.
Well, the thing is that the size of my playgroup usually varies over the course of a night. People come early and start off with a quick 1-on-1, then the games get bigger as more ppl arrive. So we're usually playing the same EDH decks both in 1-on-1 and in 4+ multiplayer games. And let me tell you, being able to play on-curve in a duel is so much more important than in a 4 player game. Nowadays, I think I pretty much refuse to play his Sliver Queen 1-on-1 while we're waiting for other ppl to arrive.
I think that's a perfectly reasonable response, both because 1v1/Dual Commander is its own thing, with needs different from the standard version of the format, and also because the way that player proxies gives him an unfair advantage.
My 2 Cents on proxies:
You own the cards, but they're in another deck? I'm cool
You don't own the cards, but you want to test before buying? Cool, as long as you announce that beforehand.
You don't own the cards, but you want to destroy everything? Not so cool, and I wouldn't even play this if I knew before the game started.
My biggest pet peeve in all of magic is players who use proxies, that are basically just a name on a piece of paper, and then expect everyone to know everything that card does, and then when asked don't even know the card that well by themselves. Same goes for foreign cards, know your own *****!
I don't mind proxies, but I appreciate seeing them done with some more effort than just writing down a shortened name on a slip of paper.
I think it's really going to depend on the table and what the local meta thinks of playing proxies. Many people like the 'collectable' aspect of the game - these meta's should steer away from using proxies. Others like the enjoyment of the plays - less drive to own the actual cards.
For me personally, I think if you are testing a card or own an expensive card but don't want to damage it, then proxy is okay. For all else, it's a collectable card game for a reason and there is a sea full of alternatives to play at the casual table.
I think if someone struggles to acquire a rare or expensive card, that feeling of satisfaction should not be cheapened by the player next just sharpying up a common. However, on the flip side, a player could just as well drop $1000 on cards and this too cheapens a players experience who struggles to obtain the good card. So in the end....it's meta driven.
Ultimately, imo, if you are part of a meta that shares similar financial outlook on card acquisition, this is the best meta to find enjoyment in.
I have posted a similar question to my playgroups Facebook page and there are mixed responses. Ultimately, I just love to play the game. That said I do like things to be fairly even- I mean I don't want to play against a deck running 40 rare 100+ dollar cards if I'm getting stomped all the time. One of our players started running almost 100 % proxys. She was just starting and wanted to experiment before dumping massive amounts of $$ on buying singles she saw us playing with. Over about a year she has three very competitive decks that she has converted to genuine cards. I think that is ok- our group doesn't seem to mind. I think some silently sneer a bit but we live in a small town with few players and no game store that sells Magic and one player lost to the $$$ investment matters in a small population.
I recently got back into the game after being out for like 15 years and I was playing with some old stuff that has gained value. I had a guy make me some custom proxies with differant arts so I could slab some of the valuable cards. Over the last few months Ive started shifting out most of those for more modern equivalents just for the sake of more fair play ( old duals and rares).
One thing about Magic is that throwing money down gives a player the advantage of having better cards if you are playing a co strutted format and I dislike that to a degree. I play with a guy that is a phenomenal builder and player but he simply doesn't have the $ to throw down on stuff that is high dollar. I wish wizards could somehow take that element out of the game. I could see limited printing of stuff that is in the modern or standard rotation , but maybe doing something like $2/ card custom orders for stuff that would be legacy and vintage. If the Chinese can do it wizards could too. That would keep the power level checked a bit for the DCI players and keep the market reasonably strong for buying new sets, drafts, etc. I feel like it simply crazy for cards to cost hundreds of dollars. Take something like imperial seal- super expensive, not as good as vampiric tutor, but because it was printed in a set that didn't sell much it's price is crazy high. That is why the Chinese are making a killing printing proxys/ fakes. If wizards would either offer custom order reprints the Chinese woukd have no market. They offer modern masters but paying 12-13 bucks a pack with little to no guarantee of pulling what you want? No thanks- I support wizards but they need to offer us a better option than buying fake cards if they want to stop the proxies. Eventually the Chinese will nail the paper recipe and the foil core rares and then there really will be trouble for wizards
I'm fine with them as long as you aren't building some stupid netdeck. If you came up with the idea yourself, proxy away. I've sunk a ton of money into my collection, but winning via wallet isn't very satisfying.
I'd prefer if you had a decent printout, but then I do know nearly every card by name. Mostly it's just easier to grok from a quick look at the table, if you've got printed out pictures instead of sharpie jobs.
I dont mind proxy use assuming one of a few things:
1) Proxies of cards that are owned.
2) Testing cards intending to purchase things if the deck works out.
3) Budget is an issue for the player.
In the case of #3, I prefer that they do not proxy $50+ cards they do not intend to buy. I really have no issue if this sort of situation arises and they need to proxy $20 cards and such but as someone who strives to own at least a copy of everything I own, I would be a bit annoyed if someone just full time proxied Tabernacle, Moat, and other big expensive cards they never intend to own. You do not NEED a Mana Drain to play commander, but if you have the cash its nice. I personally try to long term buy duplicates for cards that fall under $50 that I use in multiple locations.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Magic: the Gathering is a collectable game. However, when it comes to playing the game, the collectable aspect of the pieces is irrelevant.
When I build a deck, I play the deck I want to play, and expect my opponents to do the same, often comparing it to Chess - I do not care if you use custom or 'fake' chess pieces, as long as they are clearly identifiable, and function in the same way. I both use proxies, and encourage others to do the same outside of sanctioned events.
Generally, you should either be fine with proxies, or disallow them entirely. The secondary market value of a card should never be a restriction on if you allow a proxy or not. If you do want to allow proxies, but restrict it in some way, instead limit the number of proxies that may be used in a deck.
For anyone curious about what I personally do, and do not proxy:
A list of every card I currently play with, from among four different decks, and do not own at least one legitimate copy of.
It's funny that you mention the full art textless promos as an example because none of those cards were ever permanents; they were all instants and sorceries. With instances and sorceries, being textless isn't as problematic since you can simply explain what the card does as you cast it and then everyone can forget about it after its resolved and put into the graveyard. Not the case with permanents though.
Generally, I feel exactly the same way about foreign cards as I do about shoddy proxies; they cause unnecessary headaches. Unless you can read the language that the card is printed on, it would be doing everyone a favor if you just opted to play a version in your native language. Granted, foreign cards aren't as problematic as lousy proxies since, as I mentioned before, players tend to recognize cards by their artwork. So, if a player were to put a foreign card into play, at least their opponents who were already familiar with what the card did could recognize it at a distance. Sharpie proxies? Not so much.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I only have one Timetwister. No one complains that I have proxies for the real one.
Also, I find proxies are useful if there is no printing of a card with up to date Oracle wordings. Especially if they are functional. I have a proxied version of Chains of Mephistopheles that has a flow chart printed on the card,that helps newer players.
Yeah, I agree. If the staple card was affordable before and it was such a staple, why didn't they purchase it? It becoming expensive doesn't all of the sudden give carte blanche to say, "Oh, well, I guess I'll just play it for free now." I started playing in 2009 in Shards/Zendikar Standard. I made the mistake of not buying into the Zendikar fetches when they were only $15-$20 each. Now that they are anywhere between $60-$90, I haven't been willing to drop the money on them. Consequently, I have learned to play without them in EDH.
At the end of the day, this is a hobby and hobbies take money. No, I don't expect players to buy 5 copies of Mana Crypt if they want to run it in 5 decks. 1 copy is enough for me. I just want you to own the card that you are going to proxy if you need it in more than one deck. I understand the convenience of not having to swap cards between decks and I support it.
Things like Mana Drain are more than I am willing to spend on a card. The most I've ever spent on a card other than Gaea's Cradle was $70 for a Mox Diamond. That means that, if I don't own the Mana Drain because I'm not going to spend $200 for one, then I'm not going to proxy it. So, understandably, I'm probably going to get pretty annoyed when I get blown out by another player's FoW or Mana Drain proxy when they aren't willing to spend the money on the card. No, I'm never going to buy more than one Cradle to play it in the 3-4 decks I plan to slot it into, but I ponied up the cash if I wanted to play it in my deck.
I mean, really, there is a total lack of humility there. How does someone justify playing proxies of things they don't own (usually totaling thousands of dollars) against someone who is playing within their budget?
Sure, I'd like to drop $3000 on an EDH deck so I can play all the fetches and duals and expensive counterspells, artifacts, tutors, and wheels. I'd love to run Chains of Mephistopheles in my Nath deck. However, my budget restricts me from doing that if I want to have multiple EDH decks, so I make decisions to not use cards that are too expensive that don't give me enough of a return.
Where is the sense of pride or victory when you win with a 100% proxied deck that you never intend to own or when you beat someone because you have $1500 worth of proxied cards against your opponent's somewhat unoptimized list because they can't afford the Zendikar fetches, much less the ABU duals and pricy fast mana that you are running?
I guess running proxies of cards you don't own can be okay if everyone else is also doing it, but playing those proxies against anyone who is on a budget and doesn't use proxies has to be a pretty hollow feeling. I think this is especially pervasive in cEDH where I notice players running $4000-$6000 dollar decks on TappedOut where they don't own a single fetch, dual, reserved list card, Vintage staple, P3K card, etc. in paper. Do those players actually take their deck to a competitive event with the proxies? And, if they do, how is that remotely fair against a player that doesn't proxy all those expensive cards they don't own? My competitive Narset list has a couple proxies, but only of cards that I own. If I went to event, I'd swap those proxies out for the actual card to minimize any issues. If that event had prizes and I was playing against someone who was allowed to play with proxies like the ones I mentioned above, I'd feel especially cheated. I hear people say things like they "don't want budget to be the deciding factor in games" and then use that to justify making a copy of a card that costs $800 like Imperial Seal. When not everyone is proxying cards and you are though, don't your proxies effectively mean that your budget is deciding the game? Those that do this are creating the exact problem that they are complaining about when they proxy to begin with.
Overall, I think your budget should dictate the cards you run and that proxying cards you don't own or plan to own is pretty cheap and hollow when you're running them against people that aren't playing the same way.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
The only reason I find that reasoning funny is because I don't see why it makes a difference if a card jumped to $20 in the last three years or if it's been there since 1995. It's just an interesting way to choose what you're personally OK with.
Other people using proxies: I appreciate a little effort, I do not like sharpies just scrawled over the face of the card. Having a nice looking printout is always better in my opinion.
BGGRock
Modern
BRGJund
BBGRock
"that land that makes all other lands -> B", on a forest. couldn't even find a swamp to do it on! on the other side, ive seen folks who've basically improved the original as a very well-done proxy (saw someone with john simm as the master from dr who).
at least even if i don't recognise the card from across the table, i'd rather see something that looks like something than something that might misrepresent the board state (not that i'd take the games seriously enough to care too much).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
If you don't want to play your Tabernacle or switch your dual lands around, having proxies of them is fine.
If you're ordering the card and it's coming next week, having a proxy of it is fine.
But just scribbling or making a photocopy of something because you want to power up your deck, no thanks.
I'd be fine with it for testing purposes or whatever, but overall you should play with what you have.
Caveat: If your playgroup can roll with your all-proxied deck for fun or whatnot, then by all means do so!
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
In fact, in addition to my own 'real' decks, I have a few proxied decks that I loan out to people that are trying to get more into CEDH. Often, people find that they don't enjoy playing a certain style, and I think that's great. Occasionally, I have had people find that they were really good at piloting a certain archetype that they didn't like so much before (most commonly stax).
TLDR: Let people proxy, it makes them better players.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I understand and have a certain degree of sympathy for the fact that a lot of players are on a tight budget, and I don't have an issue with someone like that, especially if they are a newer player, running proxies of the Ravnica duals or occasionally something like Cavern of Souls, but I am not okay with people running decks with multiple proxies of expensive cards they have no intention of ever owning, and this is particularly true of things like Imperial Seal. I have never actually seen a copy of that card, and look forward to having that experience some day, but meanwhile, no, I'm not okay playing against your proxy deck that includes proxies of Seal, Tabernacle, Mana Drain and a pile of other cards that would put the cost of your deck at around $4000 if you were playing with the actual cards. Why not play something made up of cards you actually own, and consider trading for a copy of Demonic Tutor if you really want your deck to have good tutors...or just including more card draw to help get what you need out of your deck?
And whatever proxies you do run, please take the time to at least make them presentable. Don't just grab a black Sharpie and scribble "Damnation" on a stray goblin token; at least take the time to print out a legible proxy from magiccards.info or someplace like that.
I think proxies for cards that you are playtesting, especially if they aren't released yet, are fine. I don't do that, but I have no problem with someone playing around with, for example, some of the Kaladesh cards a couple weeks early. Something I'm also okay with, and which I will do from time to time, is to use a proxy in place of something that one has ordered but which hasn't arrived yet, or which one is planning to get but just hasn't located yet. My newest deck (Arianna, Captain of the Guard) includes a proxied Hero of Bladehold because I didn't have an extra on hand, but have one coming my way via ebay. It doesn't include a proxy Plateau or Arid Mesa, though, because all the copies I own of those are in other decks and I'm not currently planning to purchase additional copies. If I do pick up another Plateau some time (via PucaTrade, where several of the duals are on my want list and well within the amount of points I have there, or perhaps on ebay, where I frequently check for good deals on slightly played copies), I will slot it in then, but meanwhile, that deck seems to be doing fine with a less-optimiezed manabase (including Terramorphic Expanse), and if I change my mind and decide it really needs the Plateau now, I will take one out of another deck and put it in Arianna.
Oh, and I am completely okay with people running Collector's Edition versions of cards and other cards printed by WotC but which are not legal in tournaments. Those are actual cards, and since I don't play in tournaments, I don't see an issue with it.
The one that bothers me a little when somebody proxies really cheap or absurdly expensive/ powerful cards. If its really cheap (<£1) then it's just lazy and in most cases looks awful. If its really expensive/powerful then the odds are that im not playing it for the same reasons as you so would appreciate it if you didnt but if you feel the need for it and want to invest then its not like I can say no.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
I have a lot of decks and i just work with what i have, they may not be perfect but they work.
I also would NEVER proxy and an LGS, it is really an insult to them and their business. We had an issue with a player that had proxies in her deck at a tournament and it did not go well/was not pretty.
As far as kitchen table when you are playing with friends, that is really up to you/your group. I would never "power up" a deck for kitchen table, generally the group has the same power level and budget so if i dont have a mana crypt ect for every deck that is fine. i have one judge crypt and one EMA one but i am not going to optimize every deck i play, takes some of the fun from EDH
/rambling
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
If your playgroup is the type where games last until turn 20+, people generally don't do anything interesting until turn five, and gunning for quick combo wins is considered bad manners, then the dual + fetch mana base isn't really doing a whole lot anyway, except frustrating the other players.
I can understand the equalizing factor proxies have in more "early play-heavy" playgroups however, where you need to be able to swords to plowshares that turn-one hermit druid and/or shattering spree that mana crypt into sol ring turn one play. Generally in my experience people who belong to those playgroups tend to be very pro-proxy anyway since they enjoy the equal playing field.
As RivenVII notes, this is a perfect example of why proxying can suck. Pro-proxy people talk about proxying letting people play on an even field, and in some metagames, particularly those (often more competitive ones) in which proxying is the norm and actively encouraged and expected, that may well be the case, but in a lot of cases, heavy proxying gives those players who to it an unfair advantage over people who play within their means.
Seriously, unless you are playing in which turn-five wins are considered long games, you really don't need to proxy to play enjoyable and interesting games of Commander, or to win those games. Just play with what you own, or at most, very selectively proxy a few key cards you don't own but feel your deck really needs while planning to eventually pick up those cards. That will make it feel a lot more satisfying when you eventually do obtain those cards.
Well, the thing is that the size of my playgroup usually varies over the course of a night. People come early and start off with a quick 1-on-1, then the games get bigger as more ppl arrive. So we're usually playing the same EDH decks both in 1-on-1 and in 4+ multiplayer games. And let me tell you, being able to play on-curve in a duel is so much more important than in a 4 player game. Nowadays, I think I pretty much refuse to play his Sliver Queen 1-on-1 while we're waiting for other ppl to arrive.
You own the cards, but they're in another deck? I'm cool
You don't own the cards, but you want to test before buying? Cool, as long as you announce that beforehand.
You don't own the cards, but you want to destroy everything? Not so cool, and I wouldn't even play this if I knew before the game started.
My biggest pet peeve in all of magic is players who use proxies, that are basically just a name on a piece of paper, and then expect everyone to know everything that card does, and then when asked don't even know the card that well by themselves. Same goes for foreign cards, know your own *****!
I don't mind proxies, but I appreciate seeing them done with some more effort than just writing down a shortened name on a slip of paper.
For me personally, I think if you are testing a card or own an expensive card but don't want to damage it, then proxy is okay. For all else, it's a collectable card game for a reason and there is a sea full of alternatives to play at the casual table.
I think if someone struggles to acquire a rare or expensive card, that feeling of satisfaction should not be cheapened by the player next just sharpying up a common. However, on the flip side, a player could just as well drop $1000 on cards and this too cheapens a players experience who struggles to obtain the good card. So in the end....it's meta driven.
Ultimately, imo, if you are part of a meta that shares similar financial outlook on card acquisition, this is the best meta to find enjoyment in.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
I recently got back into the game after being out for like 15 years and I was playing with some old stuff that has gained value. I had a guy make me some custom proxies with differant arts so I could slab some of the valuable cards. Over the last few months Ive started shifting out most of those for more modern equivalents just for the sake of more fair play ( old duals and rares).
One thing about Magic is that throwing money down gives a player the advantage of having better cards if you are playing a co strutted format and I dislike that to a degree. I play with a guy that is a phenomenal builder and player but he simply doesn't have the $ to throw down on stuff that is high dollar. I wish wizards could somehow take that element out of the game. I could see limited printing of stuff that is in the modern or standard rotation , but maybe doing something like $2/ card custom orders for stuff that would be legacy and vintage. If the Chinese can do it wizards could too. That would keep the power level checked a bit for the DCI players and keep the market reasonably strong for buying new sets, drafts, etc. I feel like it simply crazy for cards to cost hundreds of dollars. Take something like imperial seal- super expensive, not as good as vampiric tutor, but because it was printed in a set that didn't sell much it's price is crazy high. That is why the Chinese are making a killing printing proxys/ fakes. If wizards would either offer custom order reprints the Chinese woukd have no market. They offer modern masters but paying 12-13 bucks a pack with little to no guarantee of pulling what you want? No thanks- I support wizards but they need to offer us a better option than buying fake cards if they want to stop the proxies. Eventually the Chinese will nail the paper recipe and the foil core rares and then there really will be trouble for wizards
I'd prefer if you had a decent printout, but then I do know nearly every card by name. Mostly it's just easier to grok from a quick look at the table, if you've got printed out pictures instead of sharpie jobs.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
1) Proxies of cards that are owned.
2) Testing cards intending to purchase things if the deck works out.
3) Budget is an issue for the player.
In the case of #3, I prefer that they do not proxy $50+ cards they do not intend to buy. I really have no issue if this sort of situation arises and they need to proxy $20 cards and such but as someone who strives to own at least a copy of everything I own, I would be a bit annoyed if someone just full time proxied Tabernacle, Moat, and other big expensive cards they never intend to own. You do not NEED a Mana Drain to play commander, but if you have the cash its nice. I personally try to long term buy duplicates for cards that fall under $50 that I use in multiple locations.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
When I build a deck, I play the deck I want to play, and expect my opponents to do the same, often comparing it to Chess - I do not care if you use custom or 'fake' chess pieces, as long as they are clearly identifiable, and function in the same way. I both use proxies, and encourage others to do the same outside of sanctioned events.
Generally, you should either be fine with proxies, or disallow them entirely. The secondary market value of a card should never be a restriction on if you allow a proxy or not. If you do want to allow proxies, but restrict it in some way, instead limit the number of proxies that may be used in a deck.
For anyone curious about what I personally do, and do not proxy:
A list of every card I currently play with, from among four different decks, and do not own at least one legitimate copy of.
Tundra
Gavony Township
Opal Palace
Yavimaya Hollow
Archangel of Thune
Glen Elendra Archmage
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Imperial Recruiter
Birds of Paradise
Seedborn Muse
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
Blightsteel Colossus
Karn Liberated
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Force of Will
Trickbind
Damnation
Crop Rotation
Voidslime
Duelist's Heritage
The Abyss
Memory Jar
Oblivion Stone
Scroll Rack
Conqueror's Flail
Sphere of Resistance
Sword of Light and Shadow
Grim Monolith
Mana Vault
A list of the majority of cards I do own worth ~$20 or more.
2 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Diamond Valley
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Academy Rector
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Metalworker
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Counterspell (beta)
1 Mana Drain
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Entomb
1 Grim Tutor
2 Vampiric Tutor
2 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Sylvan Library
1 Survival of the Fittest
2 Aether Vial
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Mana Crypt
2 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice