First a bit of backstory. When I first started playing Magic I did not like the idea of commander/EDH. The reason for this was that commander was always described to me as a more casual format- the starting life total of 40 and the singleton deck construction made efficient, linear decks far less effective than in other formats. Rather, all sorts of jank and nonsense that wasn't possible/effective in other formats became possible as a result of this. I like my jank as much as the next guy but I like effective jank. Not strange, hard to assemble combos, and synergies that are in short not worth the pain it is to make them work. I was told that in commander you could get away with playing wierd enchantments that had no immediate effect on the board and would have some sort of lategame synergy. Basically the raw efficiency of cards was devalued. I think we need a healthy balance of efficiency/power and creativity but commander was taking it too far. However, my magic friends were all active edh players or starting to get into it so I decided what the heck, I'll loosen up a bit. I did grow to enjoy commander but for different reasons. The singleton and 100 card construction made every game unique and presented the ultimate deck building challenge. I still don't like the 40 life though. I'd want to at least test it at 30 if my playgroup was willing.
So I looked around for a commander that had seemed like a cool, fun build around, one that also represented a color combination that had access to powerful tools. I came up with Daxos of Meletis. I wanted a commander that wanted to be turned sideways but didn't care about commander damage and he also fit that bill. The deck was a sort of voltron-control deck utilizing powerful auras plus draw spells like Sphinx's Revelation and Jace's Ingenuity, and a healthy suite of O-ring effects and board wipes. All sewn together with a jank synergy that I came up with- take some of the the most efficient cards that put permanents or spells on top of a players library, some fateseal effects like Precognition, etc., and that would be hilarious with Daxos. I used some cards I already had, traded for some others, and spent about 30 bucks on Amazon and got this deck together. It was pretty cool- there would be games where my card advantage gave me access to answers while other players were topdecksing and hoping for the best, and meanwhile I'd be manipulating everyone's topdecks, stealing the best one with Daxos, and sending everybody else's to the bottom or the graveyard or whatver as a pleased. I realized fairly early on what the decks strength's and weaknesses were- it was great at dominating a single player and was significantly faster than everyone else's deck, but it was bad on defense and could not survive when targeted early on. Therefore, politically in a 4 player game my tactics were to try and dominate a single player and ignore the other two, and convince them that it was in my best interest to let me do their work for them and not interfere. My deck is actually really bad when it has to deal with multiple opponents and they all knew that/had chances to learn it, yet another friend (who plays Daxos the Returned enchantress) would always convince them that if I was left untouched I would eventually become impossible to deal with despite not posing an immediate threat. Whenever we discuss it my friends always admit that this is not true- no matter how good I look at the moment I can almost always be brought down if players cooperate- it's a fairly fragile strategy.
I eventually decided to switch the general to Geist of Saint Traft as he was just a superior version of Daxos. I removed the top of your library shenanigans and went for a straightforward control deck that would eventually close it out with a suited-up Geist. Now I'll cut to the chase on that one- it was only a little better. My opponents decks are mostly creature based so I relied on a critical mass of sweeper effects and card draw to find them on time. I was however very vulnerable to combos and "out of nowhere" tactics. And despite not having the most powerful deck I'm still ganged up on. I don't have mana crypt or jace the mind sculptor etc, so I don't have any obvious annoying cards for them to complain about. I don't have any win the game combos or infinities either. I'm also purposely not annoying in commander. I try to make more friends than enemies and I try to play passively in some situations. it doesn't work. I'm used to it however, we're in high school and ever since elementary school I've always been ganged up on no matter what. In Risk, and Monopoly, and NintendoLand, and sports you name it. I'm naturally competitive and I'm also really good at a lot of the things we compete in so I guess I'm a natural target. They also think it's funny that I get annoyed when they gang me. They just say "you're annoying" when I really am not and they can't name any specific, recent examples when I ask what I do that is annoying.
Essentially I need these criteria in a deck:
Wants:
-A deck that wants to, be it early or late, turn creatures sideways repeatedly.
AND
-A deck that has a good balance of making good use of the general and not relying on him
AND
-A sort of midrangey feel... not mindless beatdown or draw go control, something that results in every game playing differently, and a balance of proactive play and interactive play
AND
-A deck/general that is naturally great in multiplayer for whatever reason and gives players incentives to focus other people etc
AND/OR
-A deck/general that doesn't look threatening until it's about to win (comes out of nowhere)
OR
-A deck that's so good that no matter if I'm ganged up on or what I'll still win at least 1/4 games. (I think that's fair, there are 4 players after all)
Don't Want
-A combo deck or any infinites that aren't incidental (if a card or a few cards are already really good in general and happen to combo with other cards in the deck, I'm fine with that, but no food chain or reanimator or turn 4-5 wins etc you get it)
-A deck that absolutely relies on the commander and can't ever compete without it OR a goodstuff deck with little or no general synergies
-A deck that would annoy others to the point where they'd want to gang me or has glaring weaknesses that can be exploited if it's ganged up on
-A deck that relies on expensive cards
Now a little about my meta to help you advise me:
Daxos the Returned - Enchantment synergies, assorted BW goodstuff, wins more than anybody else but nobody ever learns to gang it before it's too late despite me frantically pointing it out. For him I want access to hate and brutal borderline unfair cards (at least against him) like Peace and Quiet, Polis Crusher, Primeval Light, Spring Cleaning, Back to Nature etc. Basically a green deck or a color combination with access to cards like these, as he's too resilient to beat otherwise and I've given up on getting help from the others to gang him.
Ezuri, Claw of Progress - He has some cheap shenanigans like free wins off of Sage of Hours and Blighted Agent etc, but he's mostly jut a weenies deck that more or less relies on the commander. I don't usually have a problem with him when he's not part of a team ganging me because all I have to do is repeatedly remove his commander and occasionally wipe his board. It would be nice if I ended up in colors that could continue to do this, in addition to having more cheap instant speed answers to his combos.
Omnath, Locus of Rage - I also don't really have a problem with him because my deck is fast and his deck does little more than ramp until he can cast his commander. All I need is some early lines of play, and I just have to avoid being too durdley.
These are my primary opponents. While I know that we may have a problem outside of just Magic and commander, I would appreciate deck ideas rather than just advice on how to deal with them as people. I'll take a little of that sure but I don't think there's a good solution other than don't play with them.
Currently I'm thinking about the new Leovold, Edric, and some sort of Bant deck as those just seem like good colors based on what I want.
Bottom line: what deck/general should I play? Thanks
Your idea of commander really closely mirrors mine. I really like winning with creatures, but, that doesn't mean I like being at the mercy of everyone's answers. Off the top of my head, Meren of Clan Nel Toth probably has a good mix of control and mid-range options (you can and should play other cards that duplicate your General's abilities). Ephara, God of the Polis also likes creatures, though you might have trouble finding good threats in those colours. I've also had some success with Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer.
More than anything, I think your opponents are sick of you having all the answers. Many players don't like sitting across from control decks because they can't 'play the game'. If you're looking for ways to keep other players off your back, you could try the tax-when attacking effects (Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Windborn Muse).
You should try looking into a Tasigur, the Golden Fang deck. While he doesn't do anything while attacking, he provides a very versitile shell for a sultai commander. There are many ways you can build him and because he utilizes the graveyard he's always evolving through new card choices, early game you can play cards like grizzly salvage or grapple with the past to fill your graveyard and drop tasigur early, he's not threating on his own either so he should be able to stick. With tasigur you can go with a midrangy/tempo option that lets you use your graveyard as a psudo toolbox depending on factors like politics and grabeyard thining.
Marchesa, the Black Rose is another good choice and also benifits from swinging. She can revive herself after combat. There's plenty of tricky things you can do with her including permanently stealing cards through act of treason and a sac outlet. Undying cards have strong synergies with her as well.
I currently have a few creature heavy decks. Marchesa, the Black Rose has the most resilient board presence of any commander deck that I have ever played. Things just tend to stick. Maelstrom Wanderer has an excellent balance of using the commander while not relying on him, especially since the cards that make him great are ramp, draw, and bombs. He is big, attacks, helps your other attacks, and brings friends along! I noticed you don't like Food Chain, but it is especially fantastic in here and is not an infinite combo.
Other fun creature decks include: Mayael the Anima, Ghave, Guru of Spores, Animar, Soul of Elements, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, and one of my personal favorites: Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker.
Any big green deck is great with creatures. The new Selvala, Heart of the Wilds could also be an excellent candidate. Mana and card draw in one commander that encourages you to do the things you already want to do? Seems good to me.
Thanks guys! (well except for that first guy, swift2210...)
I have a few follow up questions and remarks based on the feedback you all gave me. First, someone mentioned prison effects. My friends hate those. Whenever they see them they go out of their way to attack the "jailer" if you will. Next someone mentioned Derevi... I've thought about him but how do you build around him? The only primers and lists I see seek to use his ability to form combos, whereas I'd prefer some more generic synergies with cards that are already good.
Finally I did mention the new Leovold... does anybody think he would work? Thanks again
Lol, you sound a lot like me.
I am used to be targeted and "picked on". The reason is probably similar to yours, especially if you started in Blue/White; our decks are too good and everyone knows the only way to win is to team up on you, otherwise you (or I) will win every single time.
There are several solutions.
1. Up the power of your deck even more so that it doesn't matter if 3 team up on you, you can still beat them. I'd recommend BUG. I had a friend that would come by, play 4 player games involving me and 2 other decent players, and the 3 of us would obviously and clearly work together to try and beat him. 7 games we have played. 7 games the 3 of us have lost...
2. Weaken your deck, or make it more fun. By more fun I mean Not Blue... Blue is great, but it generally isn't fun. Control is generally not fun. Aggro-control can be fun, but you may want to look into some GR/WR/RW/GRW/BR/etc deck that is more aggressive, with some control but not nearly as much as UW.
3. Try to help others make their decks better. One of the rules I always liked in my shop, was we want to play against the player, not their wallet. Let them use Proxies. They have to be 'decent' proxies, no sharpies on cards, but print out a card on paper cut it out and slip it in is fine. That way full oracle text and art is visible. That way they can build their decks more powerfully so they won't necessarily feel the only way to win is by taking you out first.
4. You could also get archenemy and try playing as the archenemy. That way they can team up on you all they want, and you have an additional advantage to try and overcome the 3 on 1 effect.
Just my thoughts. But you did start with a really jerky mentality. I did too, so please don't think I am being insulting, I suffer the same exact issue.
To answer your new questions, I had my eye on Leovold too. I like BUG. BUG is the 3 most powerful colors in the game. In EDH, most agree most powerful is actually green, very closely VERY closely followed by blue, trailing in 3rd is black, distant 4th is white, and way WAY in the back is red. Leovold looks like it could easily be built into a deck that is not going to solve your problem about people picking on you. It may solve your problem of losing to 3 when they team up on you if you power it up, but it doesn't look like a 'fun' general, it looks far more 'competitive'.
Mayeal is a fun deck, and can be built strong, but not broken. Meren is a blast, I love my new meren deck. Tasigur is breakable. He like most BUG generals can be made stupid strong.
Derevi is an interesting guy. He is grouphug colors, but can be easily broken (hence why he is banned in french). For GUW decks I've always liked goodstuff builds. Put in a couple of useful counters, a couple of mass board wipes, a few equipment, most mana ramp, couple of pin point kills, some card draw, add land, and there is about 60-70 cards for a good start, and gives you 30-40 to tailor to your own desires. Derevi could probably be built into a nice stabby group hug deck, potentially a kingmaker (you pick a player, you help them win, and when it is just the two of you, you try and stab him in the back to take the victory).
If you really want to make friends, build a second deck that is either grouphug or something like Norin.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I basically only play EDH:
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
An excellent general who likes to turn creatures sideways is Brago, King Eternal (Still the true king in my eyes, Marchesa is nothing but a traitor). He is an amazing blink engine for value, and all the creatures you turn sideways you can blink for pseudo-vigilance as well as reusing EtBs. Even little cards like Man-o'-War are all stars, stalling early game and helping to out-tempo the rest of the board. He can hold off an entire table once the deck starts ticking, constantly exiling/bouncing/destroying problems while stacking up combat damage. Without him, all you have is some EtB creatures which are often terrible when not flickering repeatedly.
Hola muchachos! Ok so this is my official first post on MTG Salvation forums. I used to use the Wizards but they apparently shut that down. I've been away from the game, as we all do from time to time and seent this post and am salivating at the bit to respond. There are several suggestions I have:
- Implement the "High Man" rule and this eliminates targeting for the most part.
- Target the primary offender and go after them, every single game and knock that person out first. Every game, week after week. They will get the point and begin to leave you alone. Rinse, repeat on the next butthead on the list. I had to do this and it is very effective. NOW, some insight to this. I did this to person #1, he cried, quit playing multiplayer with us and that problem was solved. However, he tucked tail and now plays again, and for the most part, leaves me alone. When I rotated to the #2 butthead, after like, I dunno, 6 months of targeting just him ('cause you have to be that stubborn that I may lose, but you will lose first or even if you out last me will not win the game)he stood up mid game and challenged me in a very threatening tone. I then told him as I stood up, and I quote, "Sit the **** down! Shut the **** up! And play your ******* hand! I put up with your ganging up on me, I manned up, and now I kick your ass so take it the mans way or tuck you ******* ***** tail and get the **** out of here!" Now, he froze, apologized,and sat down and has left me alone ever since. Then, something that I didn't know would happen, as I moved to target #3 that was in the gang pile group, he then started to leave me alone after the very first game, I went to #4, they did the same, etc. etc. Now, everyone lets me play without ganging up on me and it's worked itself out fine. I used Kaalia as my General and tweeted it to take the first person out by turn 5, every game. No one makes multiplayer decks that fast because they need to endure over time to win, typically. Since my strategy wasn't to win, rather to take one or two people out, this worked for me.
- The last part, which was my first piece, which was really my first strategy to make the above plan work, is to make a deck that can defeat everyone at once! It is not impossible. Play test it in other groups, like at the local magic shop on Friday nights or the next neighborhood over's magic shop. I personally use the deck listed below because it was built, just to kill everyone at once, several times over. I call it "Hate" because it gets hate and it gives hate, without prejudice. I use Skythiryx as my general and he is the ONLY infect creature in the deck. However, just the threat of playing him, keeps everyone on edge and they don't play their spot, because they know if they burn it out, he can one turn kill them. They don't use their "counters" because they know they have to keep that blue mana open. They don't use their global wipe, for all the same reasons listed above. The absolute fear of a one turn kill by Skith, wins me games, every time I play this deck. Like I said earlier, I haven't played in almost a year (family medical stuff) and busted this out my first game back, guess what? It won again, heheheehehehhehe...so take this to the bank:
Instants (8): Tainted Strike (one turn kill incase opponent attacks another opponent/dick move) Hatred (one turn kill with Skithiryx) Darkness (fog for black, no one expects it) Vampiric Tutor (search) Bone Harvest (recursion) Not of this World (protection and no one expects this either, draws out other counter spells) Necrologia (combo's with Psychosis Crawler for game win) Grim Return (recursion)
Lol, you sound a lot like me.
I am used to be targeted and "picked on". The reason is probably similar to yours, especially if you started in Blue/White; our decks are too good and everyone knows the only way to win is to team up on you, otherwise you (or I) will win every single time.
There are several solutions...
2. Weaken your deck, or make it more fun. By more fun I mean Not Blue... Blue is great, but it generally isn't fun. Control is generally not fun. Aggro-control can be fun, but you may want to look into some GR/WR/RW/GRW/BR/etc deck that is more aggressive, with some control but not nearly as much as UW.
3. Try to help others make their decks better. One of the rules I always liked in my shop, was we want to play against the player, not their wallet. Let them use Proxies. They have to be 'decent' proxies, no sharpies on cards, but print out a card on paper cut it out and slip it in is fine. That way full oracle text and art is visible. That way they can build their decks more powerfully so they won't necessarily feel the only way to win is by taking you out first...
I appreciate the thought but I don't think you're understanding the situation- I probably wasn't clear. My deck doesn't have jerky or overly expensive cards in it. It just doesn't. There is no consecrated sphinx, no bribery, no mana crypt, no Jace tMS, and only one counterspell (as filler). My Daxos the Returned friend has FAR more effort and money put into his deck than me, and his card quality is higher. None of us have mana crypt for example or anything REALLY expensive but I'm definitely not "that guy" in our group. If there is one it's Daxos guy but again even he's not that bad just so you know. In our group we have always allowed proxies for people testing cards that they plan to put in for real eventually, and I use that privilege as much as the next guy in the group.
I think you are very correct in that I misunderstood. I have played in all different levels, and Daxos I have only seen at scary level; mana crypt, drains, forces, like 20 counters, a bunch of board wipes, and all that. I assumed (making an ass of myself) you had the same thing, which would explain (to me) why everyone was ganging up on you.
I think the high man is what he went and explained. Otherwise I have no idea either. Just target one guy, make his game as unfun as possible, and if he asks why explain it is because he always targeted you and made the game unfun for you, so you 'manned up' and decided to return the favor.
You could always make a combo deck... one that takes out everyone at the same time, but that gets away (generally) from use of the commander. Most of the combo decks I've built basically have the general as color binding.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I basically only play EDH:
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
High Man rule means, only the player with the highest life can be attacked.
I completely understand your problem and you're deck isn't the problem at all, your play friends are the problem. So, I gave you very simple ways to solve it.
Though I must say I find your reply somewhat confusing to say no one, not even the Daxos guy, is "that bad". If they weren't that bad, why would you post here on how to beat them or solve this? Clearly it irritates you and you feel targeted. If that is the case, you sound almost too nice to play Magic. Play for blood mang!!! No, just kidding, they may be like many people and pick on the weakling bully type, they just do it nicely.
Either way, if they aren't "that bad" then bring up the "high man" rule and that should solve your problem. If they don't, then they really are picking on you and you move to stage two while working on stage three.
See, solved it again, damn I'm good, even on day one on the Forums :)>
I can empathize man it is difficult to find that sweet spot in edh. Honestly, I avoid sweepers of any cost or type (whether it be mass land, artifact/enchantment or creature based). I also avoid anything that grants extra turn effects, Tutors of all kinds and varieties, and no combo wins by any means whatsoever. This is personally for me, as I got really tired of being a Target all the time, and I also got tired of playing with and against edh Staples and common strategies.
In regard to what you're asking, I would go with some midrange strategy. Right now I play Bant. I am building this silly concept around Roon and the creatures that make me the Monarch, as well as the obvious goodstuff ETB creatures. I avoid anything obnoxious or overly common but still use many of the utility creatures one would see in Roon. I also think midrange is a pleasant default strategy after all is said and done.
Lastly, its not always about the general but it is often enough. Many generals are just feel bads, tutor or are difficult to handle or associated with a bunch of bologna.
My understanding from reading this thread is that its just yet another case of problems arising from different expectations at the table.
I feel OP simply has a more competitive/control mindset than the rest of the group is comfortable with, and is suffering the consequences of his reputation - which is either "get him, he'll win out of nowhere" or as the "control guy".
Most of the suggestions here and the solutions posited in the first post seem to address the symptoms, not the cause. I'd suggest you talk to your group. Explain that you don't want to be the guy thats always targetted, and ask them why exactly that happens. In honesty from the OP it looks like you've gone way out and overanalysed things by your self, and to be frank I'm not certain your perception of the situation would necessarily match up with theirs. Let them tell you how to fix this problem, not some random guys on the internet.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Former pariah here: I, too, was once the "first to get ganged up on" player. Then I learned the secret: it's not always that you're the biggest threat, it can also be because you're EASY TO KILL OFF. In a four-player game, killing off the weak opponent first lets you focus on the stronger opponents. It's conter-intuitive, but if a player can obviously be toasted in just a turn with barely any effort, more hard-nose players will just do that rather than worry that you may become a threat later.
For the alternate route, just pack the most unfair combo deck you can think of and enough tutors and mana ramp to choke a horse, then bust out turn five wins before anybody else has their shoes on yet. I've found Sydri, Galvanic Genius to be excellent for this, but fast combo decks are a dime a dozen. At least that way you can luck out a win one out of every four games, giving more justification for the times you're getting choked off. You're already public enemy- why not live it?
I think you would be well served by punisher cards like Martyr's Bond, Ghostly Prison, and Dictate of Erebos. You don't need to necessarily go full stax/prison, but you want to consistently have cards that loudly telegraph to the table that attacking you will cost them severely. This type of card tends to work well with tokens and is conveniently concentrated in black and white, which are good token colors. Queen Marchesa might be a good commander. She draws you cards, produces deathtouch tokens whenever some rude dude steals your crown, and is cheap enough to cast repeatedly throughout the game. Token producers like Assemble the Legion are your win con.
Make it a point to not get aggressive early on and to punish the players who are aggressive toward you as hard as your current board will allow. I get the sense that you're struggling with the political aspect of the game, but tit for tat is a simple and generally pretty effective strategy.
Look at the Alesha, Who Smiles at Death in my signature. Keep in mind that, while the deck is good, agro is a heavily unfavored strategy in this format; it sounds like your group is of a low enough power level that it should work well, maybe even be the strongest at the table, but it has a pretty low win rate in my area specifically because it is supposed to be an agro deck (well over half the games I do win are from a combo loop, sadly)
Alternatively, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician prison.
You said they do not enjoy that? Continue using your current deck, and switch to it for a week any time you feel they are unjustly targeting you. They should learn pretty quickly.
Both provide ample means to stomp enchantments, while also handily winning games through creatures - most Xenagod decks even feature one or more ways for infinite attacks, although that is far from necessary. While both Commanders have optimal builds, they are both fun without said optimization.
Include a few legends in the 99 to alternate commanders without having to rebuild a deck. While you'll find you have preferred legends in command, each will lead to different play strategies, keeping variety high.
Cheers!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If in the area, check out Gamers N Geeks and Mini War Games in Mobile, Alabama and Underhill's Games in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio.
The initial deck you described sounds like something that could get you focused, as it seems to be a loose EDH parallel of lantern control.
That aside, initiating an arms race won't do you much good. Your meta doesn't sound particularly fierce, so bringing anything that this thread recommends built up to a decent standard will probably roll it like no tomorrow. That in turn will get you focused harder, even when the rest of the guys tune their lists up.
It seems the problem may lay elsewhere. They get a ruse out of picking on you. You react to them picking on you, and it sounds like there's a track record of that happening. I'd suggest leaving Leovold and Wanderer out of this, and just stop feeding them. It sounds like a mechanism eerily similar to that of bullying, except done in good enough spirits for you to still play with them. It's not going to be easy, but it's something that will make your life far easier if you manage to fight through it.
I would suggest Purphoros, God of the Forge with a swarm strategy. i go goblin tribal with my purphy deck and while my games are usually Won with purphy, I can win with just straight "too much to handle" bar a boardwipe.
Most games Purpy does not even become a creature as I focus more on token generation, and thus get almost no devotion (and it is still only 5 devotion needed.)
Another fun deck I made was The Mimeoplasm people saw it as a threat as they know that when I play blue, Combos are going to happen. But it was actually an Infect beatdown deck. My friend built a BUG deck after I did with similar strategy, but since he prefers control it became an "Instill the infection, then proliferate like crazy) deck.
I alos had fun with Ghave Fungus Tribal. Runs tons of Jank, yet can combo for win pretty easily as well. Nothing to scary.
Now my current running deck are Purphy Goblin tribal, Rafiq Voltron, Doran wall tribal and Mizzix Spellslinger combo Control. I am working on a Riku clone tribal and an Eldrazi Tribal (i like tribal)
Thing is I don't see any deck that can reach your criteria as it seems you want everything in your deck.
Though if you really need to stop form being Gnaged up on, I know pillowfort and Stax can do that. Or combo, Or fast beatdown decks.
Or Build Arcum Dagsson, i could deal with 3v1 every game and still come out on top laughing at how easy it was. (And it started off bad, people saw arcum, thought he was scary ad world target me, and I evolve, if I get ganged up on, i will build my deck faster and stronger than before. To the point that a 6 turn game was a LONG game. Turn 3 blightsteel Colossus... turn 4 have 2 more with haste... and bet them down. Or just deal millions of damage by having infinite mana and pump it into a rocket launcher. or Mindslaver Lock them, all teh while keeping contro of the game since you are in blue...
So I looked around for a commander that had seemed like a cool, fun build around, one that also represented a color combination that had access to powerful tools. I came up with Daxos of Meletis. I wanted a commander that wanted to be turned sideways but didn't care about commander damage and he also fit that bill. The deck was a sort of voltron-control deck utilizing powerful auras plus draw spells like Sphinx's Revelation and Jace's Ingenuity, and a healthy suite of O-ring effects and board wipes. All sewn together with a jank synergy that I came up with- take some of the the most efficient cards that put permanents or spells on top of a players library, some fateseal effects like Precognition, etc., and that would be hilarious with Daxos. I used some cards I already had, traded for some others, and spent about 30 bucks on Amazon and got this deck together. It was pretty cool- there would be games where my card advantage gave me access to answers while other players were topdecksing and hoping for the best, and meanwhile I'd be manipulating everyone's topdecks, stealing the best one with Daxos, and sending everybody else's to the bottom or the graveyard or whatver as a pleased. I realized fairly early on what the decks strength's and weaknesses were- it was great at dominating a single player and was significantly faster than everyone else's deck, but it was bad on defense and could not survive when targeted early on. Therefore, politically in a 4 player game my tactics were to try and dominate a single player and ignore the other two, and convince them that it was in my best interest to let me do their work for them and not interfere. My deck is actually really bad when it has to deal with multiple opponents and they all knew that/had chances to learn it, yet another friend (who plays Daxos the Returned enchantress) would always convince them that if I was left untouched I would eventually become impossible to deal with despite not posing an immediate threat. Whenever we discuss it my friends always admit that this is not true- no matter how good I look at the moment I can almost always be brought down if players cooperate- it's a fairly fragile strategy.
I eventually decided to switch the general to Geist of Saint Traft as he was just a superior version of Daxos. I removed the top of your library shenanigans and went for a straightforward control deck that would eventually close it out with a suited-up Geist. Now I'll cut to the chase on that one- it was only a little better. My opponents decks are mostly creature based so I relied on a critical mass of sweeper effects and card draw to find them on time. I was however very vulnerable to combos and "out of nowhere" tactics. And despite not having the most powerful deck I'm still ganged up on. I don't have mana crypt or jace the mind sculptor etc, so I don't have any obvious annoying cards for them to complain about. I don't have any win the game combos or infinities either. I'm also purposely not annoying in commander. I try to make more friends than enemies and I try to play passively in some situations. it doesn't work. I'm used to it however, we're in high school and ever since elementary school I've always been ganged up on no matter what. In Risk, and Monopoly, and NintendoLand, and sports you name it. I'm naturally competitive and I'm also really good at a lot of the things we compete in so I guess I'm a natural target. They also think it's funny that I get annoyed when they gang me. They just say "you're annoying" when I really am not and they can't name any specific, recent examples when I ask what I do that is annoying.
Essentially I need these criteria in a deck:
Wants:
-A deck that wants to, be it early or late, turn creatures sideways repeatedly.
AND
-A deck that has a good balance of making good use of the general and not relying on him
AND
-A sort of midrangey feel... not mindless beatdown or draw go control, something that results in every game playing differently, and a balance of proactive play and interactive play
AND
-A deck/general that is naturally great in multiplayer for whatever reason and gives players incentives to focus other people etc
AND/OR
-A deck/general that doesn't look threatening until it's about to win (comes out of nowhere)
OR
-A deck that's so good that no matter if I'm ganged up on or what I'll still win at least 1/4 games. (I think that's fair, there are 4 players after all)
Don't Want
-A combo deck or any infinites that aren't incidental (if a card or a few cards are already really good in general and happen to combo with other cards in the deck, I'm fine with that, but no food chain or reanimator or turn 4-5 wins etc you get it)
-A deck that absolutely relies on the commander and can't ever compete without it OR a goodstuff deck with little or no general synergies
-A deck that would annoy others to the point where they'd want to gang me or has glaring weaknesses that can be exploited if it's ganged up on
-A deck that relies on expensive cards
Now a little about my meta to help you advise me:
Daxos the Returned - Enchantment synergies, assorted BW goodstuff, wins more than anybody else but nobody ever learns to gang it before it's too late despite me frantically pointing it out. For him I want access to hate and brutal borderline unfair cards (at least against him) like Peace and Quiet, Polis Crusher, Primeval Light, Spring Cleaning, Back to Nature etc. Basically a green deck or a color combination with access to cards like these, as he's too resilient to beat otherwise and I've given up on getting help from the others to gang him.
Ezuri, Claw of Progress - He has some cheap shenanigans like free wins off of Sage of Hours and Blighted Agent etc, but he's mostly jut a weenies deck that more or less relies on the commander. I don't usually have a problem with him when he's not part of a team ganging me because all I have to do is repeatedly remove his commander and occasionally wipe his board. It would be nice if I ended up in colors that could continue to do this, in addition to having more cheap instant speed answers to his combos.
Omnath, Locus of Rage - I also don't really have a problem with him because my deck is fast and his deck does little more than ramp until he can cast his commander. All I need is some early lines of play, and I just have to avoid being too durdley.
These are my primary opponents. While I know that we may have a problem outside of just Magic and commander, I would appreciate deck ideas rather than just advice on how to deal with them as people. I'll take a little of that sure but I don't think there's a good solution other than don't play with them.
Currently I'm thinking about the new Leovold, Edric, and some sort of Bant deck as those just seem like good colors based on what I want.
Bottom line: what deck/general should I play? Thanks
Your idea of commander really closely mirrors mine. I really like winning with creatures, but, that doesn't mean I like being at the mercy of everyone's answers. Off the top of my head, Meren of Clan Nel Toth probably has a good mix of control and mid-range options (you can and should play other cards that duplicate your General's abilities). Ephara, God of the Polis also likes creatures, though you might have trouble finding good threats in those colours. I've also had some success with Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer.
More than anything, I think your opponents are sick of you having all the answers. Many players don't like sitting across from control decks because they can't 'play the game'. If you're looking for ways to keep other players off your back, you could try the tax-when attacking effects (Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Windborn Muse).
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak
Marchesa, the Black Rose is another good choice and also benifits from swinging. She can revive herself after combat. There's plenty of tricky things you can do with her including permanently stealing cards through act of treason and a sac outlet. Undying cards have strong synergies with her as well.
Other fun creature decks include: Mayael the Anima, Ghave, Guru of Spores, Animar, Soul of Elements, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, and one of my personal favorites: Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker.
Any big green deck is great with creatures. The new Selvala, Heart of the Wilds could also be an excellent candidate. Mana and card draw in one commander that encourages you to do the things you already want to do? Seems good to me.
I have a few follow up questions and remarks based on the feedback you all gave me. First, someone mentioned prison effects. My friends hate those. Whenever they see them they go out of their way to attack the "jailer" if you will. Next someone mentioned Derevi... I've thought about him but how do you build around him? The only primers and lists I see seek to use his ability to form combos, whereas I'd prefer some more generic synergies with cards that are already good.
Finally I did mention the new Leovold... does anybody think he would work? Thanks again
I am used to be targeted and "picked on". The reason is probably similar to yours, especially if you started in Blue/White; our decks are too good and everyone knows the only way to win is to team up on you, otherwise you (or I) will win every single time.
There are several solutions.
1. Up the power of your deck even more so that it doesn't matter if 3 team up on you, you can still beat them. I'd recommend BUG. I had a friend that would come by, play 4 player games involving me and 2 other decent players, and the 3 of us would obviously and clearly work together to try and beat him. 7 games we have played. 7 games the 3 of us have lost...
2. Weaken your deck, or make it more fun. By more fun I mean Not Blue... Blue is great, but it generally isn't fun. Control is generally not fun. Aggro-control can be fun, but you may want to look into some GR/WR/RW/GRW/BR/etc deck that is more aggressive, with some control but not nearly as much as UW.
3. Try to help others make their decks better. One of the rules I always liked in my shop, was we want to play against the player, not their wallet. Let them use Proxies. They have to be 'decent' proxies, no sharpies on cards, but print out a card on paper cut it out and slip it in is fine. That way full oracle text and art is visible. That way they can build their decks more powerfully so they won't necessarily feel the only way to win is by taking you out first.
4. You could also get archenemy and try playing as the archenemy. That way they can team up on you all they want, and you have an additional advantage to try and overcome the 3 on 1 effect.
Just my thoughts. But you did start with a really jerky mentality. I did too, so please don't think I am being insulting, I suffer the same exact issue.
To answer your new questions, I had my eye on Leovold too. I like BUG. BUG is the 3 most powerful colors in the game. In EDH, most agree most powerful is actually green, very closely VERY closely followed by blue, trailing in 3rd is black, distant 4th is white, and way WAY in the back is red. Leovold looks like it could easily be built into a deck that is not going to solve your problem about people picking on you. It may solve your problem of losing to 3 when they team up on you if you power it up, but it doesn't look like a 'fun' general, it looks far more 'competitive'.
Mayeal is a fun deck, and can be built strong, but not broken. Meren is a blast, I love my new meren deck. Tasigur is breakable. He like most BUG generals can be made stupid strong.
Derevi is an interesting guy. He is grouphug colors, but can be easily broken (hence why he is banned in french). For GUW decks I've always liked goodstuff builds. Put in a couple of useful counters, a couple of mass board wipes, a few equipment, most mana ramp, couple of pin point kills, some card draw, add land, and there is about 60-70 cards for a good start, and gives you 30-40 to tailor to your own desires. Derevi could probably be built into a nice stabby group hug deck, potentially a kingmaker (you pick a player, you help them win, and when it is just the two of you, you try and stab him in the back to take the victory).
If you really want to make friends, build a second deck that is either grouphug or something like Norin.
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
- Implement the "High Man" rule and this eliminates targeting for the most part.
- Target the primary offender and go after them, every single game and knock that person out first. Every game, week after week. They will get the point and begin to leave you alone. Rinse, repeat on the next butthead on the list. I had to do this and it is very effective. NOW, some insight to this. I did this to person #1, he cried, quit playing multiplayer with us and that problem was solved. However, he tucked tail and now plays again, and for the most part, leaves me alone. When I rotated to the #2 butthead, after like, I dunno, 6 months of targeting just him ('cause you have to be that stubborn that I may lose, but you will lose first or even if you out last me will not win the game)he stood up mid game and challenged me in a very threatening tone. I then told him as I stood up, and I quote, "Sit the **** down! Shut the **** up! And play your ******* hand! I put up with your ganging up on me, I manned up, and now I kick your ass so take it the mans way or tuck you ******* ***** tail and get the **** out of here!" Now, he froze, apologized,and sat down and has left me alone ever since. Then, something that I didn't know would happen, as I moved to target #3 that was in the gang pile group, he then started to leave me alone after the very first game, I went to #4, they did the same, etc. etc. Now, everyone lets me play without ganging up on me and it's worked itself out fine. I used Kaalia as my General and tweeted it to take the first person out by turn 5, every game. No one makes multiplayer decks that fast because they need to endure over time to win, typically. Since my strategy wasn't to win, rather to take one or two people out, this worked for me.
- The last part, which was my first piece, which was really my first strategy to make the above plan work, is to make a deck that can defeat everyone at once! It is not impossible. Play test it in other groups, like at the local magic shop on Friday nights or the next neighborhood over's magic shop. I personally use the deck listed below because it was built, just to kill everyone at once, several times over. I call it "Hate" because it gets hate and it gives hate, without prejudice. I use Skythiryx as my general and he is the ONLY infect creature in the deck. However, just the threat of playing him, keeps everyone on edge and they don't play their spot, because they know if they burn it out, he can one turn kill them. They don't use their "counters" because they know they have to keep that blue mana open. They don't use their global wipe, for all the same reasons listed above. The absolute fear of a one turn kill by Skith, wins me games, every time I play this deck. Like I said earlier, I haven't played in almost a year (family medical stuff) and busted this out my first game back, guess what? It won again, heheheehehehhehe...so take this to the bank:
General Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Planes walkers:(2)
Liliana Vess (card draw and targeted discard)
Liliana of the Dark Realms (ramp)
Creatures: (23)
Hythonia the Cruel (mass removal, creature advantage)
Psychosis Crawler (group damage and game winner combo with Necrologia)
Platinum Angel (buys me time, makes someone waste a spot or, combo's with Phage recursion)
Magus of the Coffers (ramp)
Filth (combos with Urborg for attack freedom)
Butcher of Malakir (creature control)
Nirkana Revenant (ramp)
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled (search control)
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief (pump kill)
Triskelion (win combo with Mikaeus)
Vampire Hexmage (Planeswalker control)
Sepulchral Primordial (creature ramp)
Phage the Untouchable (combo's with Platinum Angel)
Mephidross Vampire (combat ramp)
Necropolis Regent (combat ramp)
Harvester of Souls (draw)
Steel Hellkite (permanent control)
Visara the Dreadful (creature control)
Dread (aggro protection)
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed (win combo with Triskelion)
Reaper from the Abyss (creature control)
Pestilence Demon (creature control, draws out counter spells, combo's with Wound Reflection)
Bloodgift Demon (draw)
Enchantments (4):
Pestilence (creature control, draws out counter spells)
Necropotence (draw)
Phyrexian Arena (draw)
Wound Reflection (combo's with Psychosis Crawler and Necrologia)
Artifacts (11):
Dark Sphere (protection)
Swiftfoot Boots (protection)
Prowler's Helm (protection)
Surestrike Trident (combo's with Skithiryx)
Extraplanar Lens (ramp)
Whispersilk Cloak (protection)
Fireshrieker (combo's with Skithiryx)
Sensei's Divining Top (search, draw)
Caged Sun (ramp)
Mana Vault (ramp)
Gauntlet of Might (ramp)
Instants (8):
Tainted Strike (one turn kill incase opponent attacks another opponent/dick move)
Hatred (one turn kill with Skithiryx)
Darkness (fog for black, no one expects it)
Vampiric Tutor (search)
Bone Harvest (recursion)
Not of this World (protection and no one expects this either, draws out other counter spells)
Necrologia (combo's with Psychosis Crawler for game win)
Grim Return (recursion)
Sorcery (15):
Aphetto Dredging (recursion)
Extinguish All Hope (creature control)
Rise from the Grave (recursion)
Demonic Tutor (search)
Repay in Kind (levels the playing field for sudden one turn kill)
Rise of the Dark Realms (creature advantage, draws out counter spells)
Diabolic Revelation (search)
Profane Command (utility)
Disturbed Burial (recursion)
Sadistic Sacrament (deck destruction)
Sickening Dreams (combo's with Exsanguinate & is a life advantage late game winner)
Diabolic Tutor (search)
Corrupt (creature control)
Beseech the Queen (search)
Yawgmoth's Will (I've almost NEVER played this card and not won the game! It should be banned)
Land:
25x Snow-covered Swamp
Cathedral of War
Volrath's Stronghold
Rogue's Passage
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Cabal Coffers
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Temple of the False God
Homeward Path
So this is what I would do but that's just me. Some people like to play nice, I play to win! Good luck and remember, silence, is acceptance.
Warm regards
DReyRose
I appreciate the thought but I don't think you're understanding the situation- I probably wasn't clear. My deck doesn't have jerky or overly expensive cards in it. It just doesn't. There is no consecrated sphinx, no bribery, no mana crypt, no Jace tMS, and only one counterspell (as filler). My Daxos the Returned friend has FAR more effort and money put into his deck than me, and his card quality is higher. None of us have mana crypt for example or anything REALLY expensive but I'm definitely not "that guy" in our group. If there is one it's Daxos guy but again even he's not that bad just so you know. In our group we have always allowed proxies for people testing cards that they plan to put in for real eventually, and I use that privilege as much as the next guy in the group.
What is the "high man" rule?
I think the high man is what he went and explained. Otherwise I have no idea either. Just target one guy, make his game as unfun as possible, and if he asks why explain it is because he always targeted you and made the game unfun for you, so you 'manned up' and decided to return the favor.
You could always make a combo deck... one that takes out everyone at the same time, but that gets away (generally) from use of the commander. Most of the combo decks I've built basically have the general as color binding.
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
I completely understand your problem and you're deck isn't the problem at all, your play friends are the problem. So, I gave you very simple ways to solve it.
Though I must say I find your reply somewhat confusing to say no one, not even the Daxos guy, is "that bad". If they weren't that bad, why would you post here on how to beat them or solve this? Clearly it irritates you and you feel targeted. If that is the case, you sound almost too nice to play Magic. Play for blood mang!!! No, just kidding, they may be like many people and pick on the weakling bully type, they just do it nicely.
Either way, if they aren't "that bad" then bring up the "high man" rule and that should solve your problem. If they don't, then they really are picking on you and you move to stage two while working on stage three.
See, solved it again, damn I'm good, even on day one on the Forums :)>
Have fun mang!
Warm regards
DReyRose
In regard to what you're asking, I would go with some midrange strategy. Right now I play Bant. I am building this silly concept around Roon and the creatures that make me the Monarch, as well as the obvious goodstuff ETB creatures. I avoid anything obnoxious or overly common but still use many of the utility creatures one would see in Roon. I also think midrange is a pleasant default strategy after all is said and done.
Lastly, its not always about the general but it is often enough. Many generals are just feel bads, tutor or are difficult to handle or associated with a bunch of bologna.
I feel OP simply has a more competitive/control mindset than the rest of the group is comfortable with, and is suffering the consequences of his reputation - which is either "get him, he'll win out of nowhere" or as the "control guy".
Most of the suggestions here and the solutions posited in the first post seem to address the symptoms, not the cause. I'd suggest you talk to your group. Explain that you don't want to be the guy thats always targetted, and ask them why exactly that happens. In honesty from the OP it looks like you've gone way out and overanalysed things by your self, and to be frank I'm not certain your perception of the situation would necessarily match up with theirs. Let them tell you how to fix this problem, not some random guys on the internet.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
So there's two ways to answer this: Pillow Fort or Combo. To solve the immediate problem, practice Pillow Fort. Some great cards for that are Glacial Chasm, Solitary Confinement, Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Jace, Architect of Thought (first ability), Kiora, the Crashing Wave (first ability), Moat, Sphere of Safety, Orbs of Warding, and so on. Play Pillow Fort often enough and you become invisible, players would rather annihilate each other than deal with trying to fight through your tangled web of defense.
For the alternate route, just pack the most unfair combo deck you can think of and enough tutors and mana ramp to choke a horse, then bust out turn five wins before anybody else has their shoes on yet. I've found Sydri, Galvanic Genius to be excellent for this, but fast combo decks are a dime a dozen. At least that way you can luck out a win one out of every four games, giving more justification for the times you're getting choked off. You're already public enemy- why not live it?
Make it a point to not get aggressive early on and to punish the players who are aggressive toward you as hard as your current board will allow. I get the sense that you're struggling with the political aspect of the game, but tit for tat is a simple and generally pretty effective strategy.
Alternatively, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician prison.
You said they do not enjoy that? Continue using your current deck, and switch to it for a week any time you feel they are unjustly targeting you. They should learn pretty quickly.
Edit: Specific cards for Derevi are Static Orb, Winter Orb, Stasis, Tangle Wire, Mana Web, Trinisphere, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, Lodestone Golem, Vryn Wingmare, Kismet, Blind Obedience, Frozen Æther, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Cataclysm, Armageddon, along with the typical control & filtering options in White/Blue. There are likely more that I simply forgot.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
Both provide ample means to stomp enchantments, while also handily winning games through creatures - most Xenagod decks even feature one or more ways for infinite attacks, although that is far from necessary. While both Commanders have optimal builds, they are both fun without said optimization.
Include a few legends in the 99 to alternate commanders without having to rebuild a deck. While you'll find you have preferred legends in command, each will lead to different play strategies, keeping variety high.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
That aside, initiating an arms race won't do you much good. Your meta doesn't sound particularly fierce, so bringing anything that this thread recommends built up to a decent standard will probably roll it like no tomorrow. That in turn will get you focused harder, even when the rest of the guys tune their lists up.
It seems the problem may lay elsewhere. They get a ruse out of picking on you. You react to them picking on you, and it sounds like there's a track record of that happening. I'd suggest leaving Leovold and Wanderer out of this, and just stop feeding them. It sounds like a mechanism eerily similar to that of bullying, except done in good enough spirits for you to still play with them. It's not going to be easy, but it's something that will make your life far easier if you manage to fight through it.
Most games Purpy does not even become a creature as I focus more on token generation, and thus get almost no devotion (and it is still only 5 devotion needed.)
Another fun deck I made was The Mimeoplasm people saw it as a threat as they know that when I play blue, Combos are going to happen. But it was actually an Infect beatdown deck. My friend built a BUG deck after I did with similar strategy, but since he prefers control it became an "Instill the infection, then proliferate like crazy) deck.
I alos had fun with Ghave Fungus Tribal. Runs tons of Jank, yet can combo for win pretty easily as well. Nothing to scary.
Now my current running deck are Purphy Goblin tribal, Rafiq Voltron, Doran wall tribal and Mizzix Spellslinger combo Control. I am working on a Riku clone tribal and an Eldrazi Tribal (i like tribal)
Thing is I don't see any deck that can reach your criteria as it seems you want everything in your deck.
Though if you really need to stop form being Gnaged up on, I know pillowfort and Stax can do that. Or combo, Or fast beatdown decks.
Or Build Arcum Dagsson, i could deal with 3v1 every game and still come out on top laughing at how easy it was. (And it started off bad, people saw arcum, thought he was scary ad world target me, and I evolve, if I get ganged up on, i will build my deck faster and stronger than before. To the point that a 6 turn game was a LONG game. Turn 3 blightsteel Colossus... turn 4 have 2 more with haste... and bet them down. Or just deal millions of damage by having infinite mana and pump it into a rocket launcher. or Mindslaver Lock them, all teh while keeping contro of the game since you are in blue...
hmm maybe arcum is your best bet.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist