How do you feel about this cycle in EDH? They seem solid in two color decks, their main drawback is drawing into them lategame with no other lands in hand.
Would you play them in three color decks? Maybe even four or five color?
I prefer lands that have a higher chance of entering untapped later in the game than earlier. Examples, I don’t like Seachrome Coast (aka fast-lands), but Prairie Stream (tango lands) and Glacial Fortress (check lands) are ok. In EDH, you can usually afford to be unproductive on Turn 1 and sometimes on Turn 2, but top-decking lands that ETB tapped is really bad.
And with enough playable lands in a 2-color deck that satisfy this criteria, I’m not sure that a deck that would want them would be able to play it untapped very often, because of the way it works. The more lands like the above, Future Sight lands, etc, that you put into a 2-color deck, the worse these lands become. I don’t like them for EDH.
I prefer lands that have a higher chance of entering untapped later in the game than earlier. Examples, I don’t like Seachrome Coast (aka fast-lands), but Prairie Stream (tango lands) and Glacial Fortress (check lands) are ok. In EDH, you can usually afford to be unproductive on Turn 1 and sometimes on Turn 2, but top-decking lands that ETB tapped is really bad.
Pretty much this. When it comes to lands that just produce mana and nothing else, I want to be able to fetch it or failing that I want it to come in untapped. As my games are not over in a handful of turns, something that ETB tapped early game is less a problem than something that comes in tapped late game.
I might be weird but I actually dislike playing them for a different reason than most above, although they're legit reasons. Mine is that I don't like revealing hand information to my opponents. I like bluffing opponents with extra lands in my hand, and revealing one to an opponent means they can keep track of if I've played that land I revealed, or not. If I have 4 cards in my hand and one of them is a land and the other is the SOI dual that I just played, that tells them I have one less potential answer in my hand. I don't like it one bit.
I prefer lands that have a higher chance of entering untapped later in the game than earlier. Examples, I don’t like Seachrome Coast (aka fast-lands), but Prairie Stream (tango lands) and Glacial Fortress (check lands) are ok. In EDH, you can usually afford to be unproductive on Turn 1 and sometimes on Turn 2, but top-decking lands that ETB tapped is really bad.
Pretty much this. When it comes to lands that just produce mana and nothing else, I want to be able to fetch it or failing that I want it to come in untapped. As my games are not over in a handful of turns, something that ETB tapped early game is less a problem than something that comes in tapped late game.
I feel the opposite way. I feel like I'm on the path to losing if I'm unproductive in the first few turns of the game. I value highly anything that can come in untapped on turn one and make either color.
In 3-color+ decks I would not play these. Those decks tend to run very few basics, and even though these can be turned on by shocks, I don't think it's consistent enough. The basics in 3-color manabases (that I've seen) can also tend to favor a heavy color in the deck, meaning that the lesser used colors have less of a chance of being turned on... if I was like, 5 forest, 1 island, 1 swamp, I wouldn't run the U/B land. Just as an example.
Oddly, this is a situation where not having access to OG duals would also make these harder to run.
Don't see how you couldn't play Port Town in a spirit-themed deck. But other than flavor, I don't think these lands offer much, even for casual players.
I don't really find these lands useful, but I really wish they saved the name "Game Trail" and possibly "Port Town" for better lands. "Choked Estuary" is also a good name for a poor land. There are just too many options that are more reliable, more of the time. In 2 color it should be alright, but still being a Tapped top deck hurts its value when Checks and Tangos can enter Untapped both early and late depending on the situation.
I only really see this in a 2 color deck where you want to get stuff going early.
But if you are a budget player they get much better because they are A cheap and B get better when you have more basics in your deck (as budget decks often do).
Depending on the deck, it's nearly exactly as reliable as Check Lands and often moreso than Tango lands. Again, completely dependant on build. I did the math in my Anafenza deck, for my needs they're playable. There aren't many duals that I'm not running, besides strictly coming into play tapped (Guildgates) these are always better, and you don't need to reveal a basic land - Any subtype would do.
the only way I might play them is if I start using lairs (which are halfway decent tri-lands, TBH), karoos, and things like Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger. So, basically, lands.dec. Or in an MLD-heavy meta, or if I'm playing a lot of MLD; in those cases, I'm keeping a hand full of lands just in case anyway.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think they're pretty much behind most lands. ETB tapped isn't so bad at the beginning of the game (unless you're playing something that has critical turn one or two plays), but, later on it would be terrible, and these lands could just come up tapped. It's pretty much the same reason I don't like the Scars duals either.
So, not my favourite, and there are quite a few other options for things that always enter untapped, or will likely enter untapped.
I'm really surprised I'm in the minority on this.
Okay, so I do think they're bad in three-color. But in two color? How many nonbasics are you playing that you don't have room for these? Even if they're worse than duals, shocks, pains, checks, filters, double-checks, scrylands, manlands, old filters, and a full set of fetches (which in two-color is 6), that's only 15 of 30-some lands you're playing. And for the record, I don't believe that these lands are worse than all of those. Even with Command Tower and some utility lands, I would still play Port Town over my eighth Island.
Why do people value untapped lands late in the game over early? I can't follow the logic on that. I don't care if my tenth mana source comes down tapped. I can more than likely still cast whatever I want. I do care if my second or third mana source comes in tapped. That prevents me from playing a lot!
Do people not play an abundance of turn-two rocks and ramp spells like Nature's Lore or Steve? I often feel like my deck is off to a rough start if I have to pass my second turn without doing anything. Even my casual decks want to be untapping with something on the board by turn three or four. Untapped mana early matters so much.
The only actual 2-color deck I run is Dimir, where I don't reliably have basics just hanging out in my hand to be shown so it can come in untapped. It's also a strategic disadvantage to have to reveal anything from your hand to opponents, which I dislike.
I just feel like most times this land is going to enter tapped for me, as opposed to the check lands and tango/battle lands that I think are great and likely to come in untapped. I run them in -most- of my decks (Narset has little tolerance for anything coming in tapped, so I only run the check lands in her, opting for pains and filters as my other dual cycles), but I run both allied tangos in my Bant list as well as the dimir tango in Grimgrin.
I think I'd just rather roll the dice with a basic in even my 2-color list. Extra swamps never hurt and not having the swamp subtype can be a negative as well. Another reason to love the tangos: you can fetch them.
I run it in Grenzo, which wants the untapped mana pronto and loves having 1BB, 1RB or 1RR available early on, so that one runs all the fast duals it can get. However, my Rasputin does not run it as it really doesn't want untapped lands as late in the game it fires off huge Blue Sun's Zeniths or Mind Springs, and every mana counts in those situations. Furthermore, between Vedalken Shackles and various plain-dependant cards, the deck really wants to keep lands without basic types to a minimum.
In the end, these lands suit your needs if you need early game specific mana setups. For that reason, I actually think the Dimir and Rakdos ones should see most play as Black tends to be pretty colour-intensive, so having multiple black/x sources early on is useful and they fill that niche with less risk of entering the game untapped early on as their checklands or something.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
They're probably playable in two-color enemy pair decks because unlike in allied pairs there aren't scars lands, future lands, battle lands, or Odyssey filters available. We're probably just one or two more decent lands away from them no longer making the cut, however.
I think the green ones are actually decent. You generally have a lot of effects like Cultivate that fetch basics into your hand, which helps these lands come into play untapped at any point in the game. I run Razorverge Thicket in two of my decks, so I may actually give Fortified Village a test drive.
I think they are fine in something like Borborygmos/Omnath, Locus of Rage, etc. because having lands in hand isn't a shocker to your opponents. Also, a lot of the time you WANT lands in hand to activate landfall/pitch to Borborygmos's ability.
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Playable in 2 color but still not great, mediocre in 3 color and slightly-better-than-guildgates in 5 color. There are about 10 cycles of dual lands that I would play before these lands, and the reaso why they're in 2 color is because you only play 1 of that cycle (outside of fetchlands) so you can stock up on a bunch of duals. But take a 3-color deck for example. After 9 fetches, 3 shocks, your triland, and ~10 basic lands, you only need ~15 more lands. 3 painlands, 3 filter lands, and a few utility lands depending on your color (e.g. Bojuka Bog) and you almost have your landbase done.
On a side note what's the "official" nickname for this cycle? Like how the battle for zendikar duals are called tango lands, the M10 cycle are called check lands, etc. Reveal land?
For those who don't run "all the fetches" they are perfectly fine lands. I run them in my Naya deck and they work well with the shocks, basics, and double checks. They are great t1 or t2 where the "battle lands/tangos" are terrible. The deck runs plenty of basics to support all of the ramp spells. I can see how in a non-green deck that didn't run many basics and therefore didn't run the battle lands these would not be as useful. I can't imagine many circumstances that a two-color deck should exclude them.
The biggest issue to me is that the SOI lands are ally colored, and while WoTC's definitely been trying to provide more enemy fixing in recent years, there's still an abundance of ally colored options. Excluding fetchlands and any-color-lands, the count is still about 3:2 in favor of ally lands, which means that any ally land that comes out has that much more competition to get through before I can justify picking them up for my decks.
Assuming Kaladesh is going to be enemy colored, I'll be looking forward for it's duals (even if they just completed the SOI cycle there), but the SOI lands simply haven't done it for me when they also have to compete with stuff like Snow Duals, Storage Duals, Signet Duals, or the Future Sight lands.
Foreboding Ruins
Fortified Village
Game Trail
Port Town
How do you feel about this cycle in EDH? They seem solid in two color decks, their main drawback is drawing into them lategame with no other lands in hand.
Would you play them in three color decks? Maybe even four or five color?
And with enough playable lands in a 2-color deck that satisfy this criteria, I’m not sure that a deck that would want them would be able to play it untapped very often, because of the way it works. The more lands like the above, Future Sight lands, etc, that you put into a 2-color deck, the worse these lands become. I don’t like them for EDH.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
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I feel the opposite way. I feel like I'm on the path to losing if I'm unproductive in the first few turns of the game. I value highly anything that can come in untapped on turn one and make either color.
In 3-color+ decks I would not play these. Those decks tend to run very few basics, and even though these can be turned on by shocks, I don't think it's consistent enough. The basics in 3-color manabases (that I've seen) can also tend to favor a heavy color in the deck, meaning that the lesser used colors have less of a chance of being turned on... if I was like, 5 forest, 1 island, 1 swamp, I wouldn't run the U/B land. Just as an example.
Oddly, this is a situation where not having access to OG duals would also make these harder to run.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
But if you are a budget player they get much better because they are A cheap and B get better when you have more basics in your deck (as budget decks often do).
In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
On phasing:
So, not my favourite, and there are quite a few other options for things that always enter untapped, or will likely enter untapped.
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Okay, so I do think they're bad in three-color. But in two color? How many nonbasics are you playing that you don't have room for these? Even if they're worse than duals, shocks, pains, checks, filters, double-checks, scrylands, manlands, old filters, and a full set of fetches (which in two-color is 6), that's only 15 of 30-some lands you're playing. And for the record, I don't believe that these lands are worse than all of those. Even with Command Tower and some utility lands, I would still play Port Town over my eighth Island.
Why do people value untapped lands late in the game over early? I can't follow the logic on that. I don't care if my tenth mana source comes down tapped. I can more than likely still cast whatever I want. I do care if my second or third mana source comes in tapped. That prevents me from playing a lot!
Do people not play an abundance of turn-two rocks and ramp spells like Nature's Lore or Steve? I often feel like my deck is off to a rough start if I have to pass my second turn without doing anything. Even my casual decks want to be untapping with something on the board by turn three or four. Untapped mana early matters so much.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
I just feel like most times this land is going to enter tapped for me, as opposed to the check lands and tango/battle lands that I think are great and likely to come in untapped. I run them in -most- of my decks (Narset has little tolerance for anything coming in tapped, so I only run the check lands in her, opting for pains and filters as my other dual cycles), but I run both allied tangos in my Bant list as well as the dimir tango in Grimgrin.
I think I'd just rather roll the dice with a basic in even my 2-color list. Extra swamps never hurt and not having the swamp subtype can be a negative as well. Another reason to love the tangos: you can fetch them.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
In the end, these lands suit your needs if you need early game specific mana setups. For that reason, I actually think the Dimir and Rakdos ones should see most play as Black tends to be pretty colour-intensive, so having multiple black/x sources early on is useful and they fill that niche with less risk of entering the game untapped early on as their checklands or something.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
GReki, the History of Kamigawa Legendfall
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest Drawmaster of Trest | GBGlissa the Traitor A Touch of Death | WBTeysa, Orzhov Scion Spinning in Graves
UWIsperia, Supreme Judge A Riddles of Sphinxes | RG Mena and Denn, Wildborn Beware Falling Rocks | GWSigarda, Host of Hurons The Enchantress
WRGRith the Awakener Superfriendly Tokens
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
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On a side note what's the "official" nickname for this cycle? Like how the battle for zendikar duals are called tango lands, the M10 cycle are called check lands, etc. Reveal land?
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
The mana base I run is below for reference.
1 Temple Garden
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Command Tower
1 Temple of the False God
4 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Forest
1 Blighted Woodland
1 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Glade
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Krosan Verge
1 Mosswort Bridge
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Boros Garrison
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Gruul Turf
1 Fortified Village
1 Game Trail
Assuming Kaladesh is going to be enemy colored, I'll be looking forward for it's duals (even if they just completed the SOI cycle there), but the SOI lands simply haven't done it for me when they also have to compete with stuff like Snow Duals, Storage Duals, Signet Duals, or the Future Sight lands.
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