I've recently acquired a Bitter Ordeal after keeping my eye out for quite awhile. Basically, I wanted one enough that if buy it if I saw it in a store, but not enough to order it online. Well, I found one in a store, so now I have it.
The question is whether to use Praetor's Grasp or Bitter Ordeal in my mono black control list. Currently, I'm leaning towards Ordeal now. Liliana is my commander, so I tend to make things hit the GY fairly often during my turn, which can kill many birds with one stone. On the other hand, Grasp keeps the card hidden and gives me the chance to play it later. I could steal a Coffers or Damnation and just sit on it for awhile until I need it.
Let's discuss, since my list only has room for one.
Bitter Ordeal. Praetor's Grasp is more flexible, but less powerful in its use. One way to use it is to get rid of a single card, which is often not enough to make much difference. If you use it against another black player, maybe it becomes an unreliable tutor (no guarantee they have the card you want), but the card does go back to its owner's graveyard if you cast it.
Bitter Ordeal, cast after a board wipe, can go in and gut multiple people's decks, or just really shut down a combo deck. If I'm against combo, I think I'd like the ability to remove their redundancies more than I'd like the tutor.
My buddy and I just were talking about how good PG is, and we had different angles. He plays against more combo decks and uses it defensively. I always end up swiping something useful for myself.
It's one of my favorite black cards, but it sounds like its use is meta-dependent.
Bitter Ordeal. Praetor's Grasp is more flexible, but less powerful in its use. One way to use it is to get rid of a single card, which is often not enough to make much difference. If you use it against another black player, maybe it becomes an unreliable tutor (no guarantee they have the card you want), but the card does go back to its owner's graveyard if you cast it.
Bitter Ordeal, cast after a board wipe, can go in and gut multiple people's decks, or just really shut down a combo deck. If I'm against combo, I think I'd like the ability to remove their redundancies more than I'd like the tutor.
I should have noted that I use Xiahou Dun, so I can reuse PG if I want. A lot of my control actually comes from Liliana's +2, which I take advantage of through Madness and the like. PG helps me deal with things like RIP and Skullclamp that are otherwise impossible without tons of mana. The big advantage PG has over BO is being able to cast it. With the new mana rules, that means I can grab someone's KGrip if something like those manage to come out.
I'm still leaning towards BO because like you said, I can hit 3+ decks at the same time in one fell swoop.
My buddy and I just were talking about how good PG is, and we had different angles. He plays against more combo decks and uses it defensively. I always end up swiping something useful for myself.
It's one of my favorite black cards, but it sounds like its use is meta-dependent.
Every deck has something monoblack has trouble with. I won't say I use it defensively or offensively, but rather proactively.
If your deck has a tendency to kill lots of your opponents creatures or if you like to death cloud everyone done to zero permanents, then bitter ordeal should be a nice card, but only if your opponents tend to play lots of creature-heavy strategies.
If your deck has access to some sort of graveyard loop combo like with grave titan + nim deathmantle + ashnod's altar sort of afair, then this should make a nice win condition.
The biggest issue with using bitter ordeal outside a combo is you are relying on some other card to enable the creature/land removal, and assuming that your opponents have enough creatures in play to actually make it worthwhile to spend your turn/mana/cards doing this.
Otherwise, I would choose praetor's grasp over it. In most games, to me, praetor's grasp is going to be at worst a spell version of trinket mage and go grab some opponents sol ring. The extra utility if you can find a better card to play is just bonus. With the new commander rule change you can even get a non-black land and product the opponents colors if you had some other agenda.
In short, praetor's grasp will rarely be a dead card, while bitter ordeal is more of a possible win-condition. If you are not using bitter ordeal to exile their entire deck, and you just want to exile scary cards, then possibly consider sadistic sacrament instead? The turn bitter ordeal can net you 13+ cards would most likely require you to expend some other spell and spend possibly the same amount of mana as just kicking sadistic sacrament. This should be easier to pull off without having to rely on permanents being destroyed. The only downside is you are targeting one specific person instead of all possible opponents.
Unless you're gravestorming a Bitter Ordeal for infinite, I would use Praetor's Grasp. Sure, sometimes you can get a few extra cards with Ordeal, but I think the ability to grab a Sol Ring/Mana Crypt with Grasp is stronger. Though, I also think this is meta dependent. I know a lot of decks around me that would be crippled (even if they aren't flat-out eliminated) by taking one card. Food Chain from Prossh, half of the Kiki/Conscripts combo, Reiterate from the Turnabout combo... but there are other combo decks that pack multiple combos, and against those picking extra cards could be better. Even decks that focus on a single combo will probably still have a way to win without it, unless they are very very glass cannon. Still, the ability to further your own gameplan, or the ability to swipe a Pact of Negation to protect your own combo... again, very deck and meta dependent, but for myself, I play Grasp.
Praetor's grasp all day. Provided you can generate a non-black color of mana with mana rocks, you could steel a crazy bomb like insurrection and win the game right there.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Bitter Ordeal is generally used to exile everyone else's libraries after doing an infinite loop, but has the secondary use of stripping a combo player of his wincons in the event you can't set up the infinite loop.
Praetor's grasp is more a card to find a silver bullet, but it's only really useful if you're 3 or 5 color as if you're 2color or monoblack there's a lower chance that you'll be able to get something useful and cast it in a given game. For example if you're monoblack and nobody else on the table is black, you probably will be stuck only getting artifacts or lands, which greatly limits the usefulness of grasp. Also if you're 2color or monoblack you probably don't have many (if any) cards that produce mana of any color (e.g. Chromatic Lantern). Whereas if you're 5 color, you can usually cast anything you grasp for.
Bitter Ordeal is a giant middle finger to combo decks, but a minor annoyance to other deck archetypes unless you've got some sort of infinite death trigger combo going (and there are other wincons then, like Blood Artist). Praetor's Graspcan stop combo decks (assuming the combo player is stupid enough to only have one win condition) but mostly is just "steal a sweet artifact or land".
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
The question is whether to use Praetor's Grasp or Bitter Ordeal in my mono black control list. Currently, I'm leaning towards Ordeal now. Liliana is my commander, so I tend to make things hit the GY fairly often during my turn, which can kill many birds with one stone. On the other hand, Grasp keeps the card hidden and gives me the chance to play it later. I could steal a Coffers or Damnation and just sit on it for awhile until I need it.
Let's discuss, since my list only has room for one.
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
Bitter Ordeal, cast after a board wipe, can go in and gut multiple people's decks, or just really shut down a combo deck. If I'm against combo, I think I'd like the ability to remove their redundancies more than I'd like the tutor.
It's one of my favorite black cards, but it sounds like its use is meta-dependent.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I should have noted that I use Xiahou Dun, so I can reuse PG if I want. A lot of my control actually comes from Liliana's +2, which I take advantage of through Madness and the like. PG helps me deal with things like RIP and Skullclamp that are otherwise impossible without tons of mana. The big advantage PG has over BO is being able to cast it. With the new mana rules, that means I can grab someone's KGrip if something like those manage to come out.
I'm still leaning towards BO because like you said, I can hit 3+ decks at the same time in one fell swoop.
Every deck has something monoblack has trouble with. I won't say I use it defensively or offensively, but rather proactively.
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
If your deck has access to some sort of graveyard loop combo like with grave titan + nim deathmantle + ashnod's altar sort of afair, then this should make a nice win condition.
The biggest issue with using bitter ordeal outside a combo is you are relying on some other card to enable the creature/land removal, and assuming that your opponents have enough creatures in play to actually make it worthwhile to spend your turn/mana/cards doing this.
Otherwise, I would choose praetor's grasp over it. In most games, to me, praetor's grasp is going to be at worst a spell version of trinket mage and go grab some opponents sol ring. The extra utility if you can find a better card to play is just bonus. With the new commander rule change you can even get a non-black land and product the opponents colors if you had some other agenda.
In short, praetor's grasp will rarely be a dead card, while bitter ordeal is more of a possible win-condition. If you are not using bitter ordeal to exile their entire deck, and you just want to exile scary cards, then possibly consider sadistic sacrament instead? The turn bitter ordeal can net you 13+ cards would most likely require you to expend some other spell and spend possibly the same amount of mana as just kicking sadistic sacrament. This should be easier to pull off without having to rely on permanents being destroyed. The only downside is you are targeting one specific person instead of all possible opponents.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Bitter Ordeal is generally used to exile everyone else's libraries after doing an infinite loop, but has the secondary use of stripping a combo player of his wincons in the event you can't set up the infinite loop.
Praetor's grasp is more a card to find a silver bullet, but it's only really useful if you're 3 or 5 color as if you're 2color or monoblack there's a lower chance that you'll be able to get something useful and cast it in a given game. For example if you're monoblack and nobody else on the table is black, you probably will be stuck only getting artifacts or lands, which greatly limits the usefulness of grasp. Also if you're 2color or monoblack you probably don't have many (if any) cards that produce mana of any color (e.g. Chromatic Lantern). Whereas if you're 5 color, you can usually cast anything you grasp for.
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Bitter Ordeal is a giant middle finger to combo decks, but a minor annoyance to other deck archetypes unless you've got some sort of infinite death trigger combo going (and there are other wincons then, like Blood Artist).
Praetor's Grasp can stop combo decks (assuming the combo player is stupid enough to only have one win condition) but mostly is just "steal a sweet artifact or land".
On phasing: