Liliana of the Veil seems like a great card, but at the same time, I have never seen her really perform outstandingly in edh.
What are others experience using her in EDH? She normally gets 1 ability off in my groups before being removed, and while the discard is a nice ability, I always feel I'd have hit harder if i had played Smallpox instead.
I want to play her but have yet to because I'm just not convinced she's worth a slot in my deck. As far as EDH goes it feels like there's just so many more effective options. I'd still prefer Liliana Vess for two more mana because getting a Vampiric Tutor is worth way more than Liliana of the Veil's ability. I could maybe see her in my Teysa, Orzhov Scion deck because there's potential to protect her without going out of my way to do so. But once again, it comes down to choosing her over so many other options and her not quite standing up. Her +1 is probably the best thing about her, as her -2 targets one player and if that player has Hexproof from anything it's a moot point.
Mandatory inclusion.
If you are unable to protect Liliana in a Stax build, you have done something very wrong, and she is easily one of the best mass discard effects available - other top contenders being Cunning Lethemancer & Mindslicer
Liliana Vess is not even worth considering. The card is way to high of a cost for the effect.
Very slow and vulnerable relative to basically any other option. Pretty much every option that discards upfront is better for that reason - Delirium Skeins, Noxious Vapors, Sire of Insanity, Sadistic Hypnotist etc. These reverse Howling Mine's are really not very good in comparison, because they give opponents forever to play one card like Life from the Loam, Crucible or Worlds, etc, that mitigates the discard entirely.
The only cards like this that I really consider are Oppression (scales well against "spellslinger"/"storm"), Words of Waste (potentially more discard upfront, if built that way), and possibly Bottomless Pit if my own deck can weather the random discard. I sometimes consider Stronghold Rats, but mostly for being a good attacker in addition to the disruption. The Rats are also nearly strictly superior to Cunning Lethemancer for that reason, and because you actually get one more draw prior to the discard with the Rats. The standard Necrogen Mists looks great to players who are in love with effects that trigger every upkeep, but they are seriously lacking in impact.
LOTV gives you a little more immediacy on the discard, and the really longshot option of an edict in a pinch, but in exchange for being the most vulnerable permanent type in the entire game. Just a very underwhelming card in EDH stax.
LoTV's biggest issue in Stax is that if your deck is doing its job, then your opponent's hand should generally be stuffed pretty full anyways, and discarding is not as effective in these situations. Of course, she can kill creatures too, but you can do that for BB1 pretty easily anyway with lots of other options. So that leaves you with her ultimate, and if you've got the board state locked down where you've protected her to that point, well, it feels a little "win more."
Still, you could do worse than her, and if your deck can make benefits out of discarding cards through, say, Madness or reanimation, she becomes more tempting.
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I never been impressed with this card in edh it could make the cut in some decks, but its never amazing. Calling it a mandatory inclusion is a stretch. you cant just trade down like you can in 1v1 and have it be a threat taht must be dealt with and the sac effect is far less effective. I am with jusstice on this one.
I ult'd her against a pillowfort deck (playing my Thraximundar stax deck) a few weeks ago to clear away some of his defenses. Felt good.
Granted, that game had me playing stax, an Angus Mackenzie creatureless deck, a Liliana Heretical Healer discard deck, and Oloro pillowfort. (Both Angus and Oloro got Tabernacle out, too, and I had Pendrell Mists because I'm too cheap to get an actual Tabernacle.) A planeswalker staying out long enough to hit its ultimate was not too surprising, and the only reason the Liliana deck didn't get the Defiant Necromancer emblem was because of my Pithing Needle.
Very slow and vulnerable relative to basically any other option. Pretty much every option that discards upfront is better for that reason - Delirium Skeins, Noxious Vapors, Sire of Insanity, Sadistic Hypnotist etc. These reverse Howling Mine's are really not very good in comparison, because they give opponents forever to play one card like Life from the Loam, Crucible or Worlds, etc, that mitigates the discard entirely.
The only cards like this that I really consider are Oppression (scales well against "spellslinger"/"storm"), Words of Waste (potentially more discard upfront, if built that way), and possibly Bottomless Pit if my own deck can weather the random discard. I sometimes consider Stronghold Rats, but mostly for being a good attacker in addition to the disruption. The Rats are also nearly strictly superior to Cunning Lethemancer for that reason, and because you actually get one more draw prior to the discard with the Rats. The standard Necrogen Mists looks great to players who are in love with effects that trigger every upkeep, but they are seriously lacking in impact.
LOTV gives you a little more immediacy on the discard, and the really longshot option of an edict in a pinch, but in exchange for being the most vulnerable permanent type in the entire game. Just a very underwhelming card in EDH stax.
This is exactly my stance on her. Thanks for posting tons of alternatives for me to consider. My meta is very creature heavy lately, and she just doesnt stick long enough to provide value
I think Liliana of the Veil only makes the cut in reanimator decks as the self-discard is worth a lot there. She's really good there though as she pressurizes your opponents at the same time as helping you.
I think Liliana of the Veil only makes the cut in reanimator decks as the self-discard is worth a lot there. She's really good there though as she pressurizes your opponents at the same time as helping you.
I also run her in my Olivia, Mobilized for War deck that has a fair bit of madness (including Falkenrath Gorger and a good number of vampires), Squee, and something like 8 different wheel effects (some of which are repeatable).
I know this is about Liliana of the Veil, but I want to start by saying that Liliana of the Dark Realms is super underrated. She does everything you could want out of a black walker. She gives you +1 card a turn, and that card is guaranteed to be a much needed swamp. "Swamps matter" is a sub theme in black. Cabal Coffers, Nightmare Lash, Lashwrithe, Corrupt, Tendrils of Corruption, and Liliana herself count the swamps you have in play. In a stax deck, you will likely be losing your own lands to Smoke Stack, and having an extra card in hand to throw away each turn to a Necrogen Mists is no joke as well. Additionally, Liliana of the Dark Realms works wonders with Scroll Rack. Just throw the swamp back on top with other cards you don't want, then search it out again next turn as a shuffle effect and get an extra card to look at next time off a fresh deck.
Liliana Vess is not very good. Her discard effect only hits one player, so unless you are finishing someone off, you are really only playing her for the tutor effect... and let's be honest, there are a lot better tutors in black than Liliana Vess. When you add in the fact that she fights for play space with other versions of herself (can't have more than one Liliana in play at once), she really isn't worth it. She was a lot better when her and Sorin were Black's only planeswalkers.
Liliana of the Veil is an amazing card in modern and (at least for me) an average card in EDH/Commander. Alone, she can help fight a resource war. You normally only draw one card a turn, and Liliana forces you to lose a card each turn she makes it around the table, so if you want to actually play cards from your hand, you will eventually run out of gas and find yourself in top deck mode. However, in black (and stax decks), you should have ways of generating positive card advantage and winning such a resource war. If you actually build around that, she can become even better. For example, Geth's Grimoire fits perfectly in a deck that has a variety of mass discard effects. Necroegen Mists, Bottomless Pit, Cunning Lethemancer, Word of Waste, Delirium Skeins, Unnerve, Syphon Mind, and those sorts of cards become all the better. Veilborn Ghoul is about as close to Squee, Goblin Nabob as mono black can get. While not great, it is a nice repeatable discard outlet.
So, in my opinion, LiliVeil is best when you have alread built your deck around similar effects. In my Ghoulcaller Gisa deck, which isn't Stax and as a result a bad example for this thread, LiliVeil has been underwhelming. I don't think she is an auto include in every black deck like some do.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
LotV is good in any deck where Necrogen Mists, Bottomless Pit, Cunning Lethemancer and other 3cmc "everyone discards 1 per turn" effects are good, which are only a few as far as I'm aware.
She's still one of the best Lilianas (alongside flip-walker Lili) if only because the other two are so underwhelming, Vess can be too clunky for any fast metas with her 5cmc and Dark Realms doesn't do enough outside of a "big swamps" Cabal Coffers build.
What are others experience using her in EDH? She normally gets 1 ability off in my groups before being removed, and while the discard is a nice ability, I always feel I'd have hit harder if i had played Smallpox instead.
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If you are unable to protect Liliana in a Stax build, you have done something very wrong, and she is easily one of the best mass discard effects available - other top contenders being Cunning Lethemancer & Mindslicer
Liliana Vess is not even worth considering. The card is way to high of a cost for the effect.
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The only cards like this that I really consider are Oppression (scales well against "spellslinger"/"storm"), Words of Waste (potentially more discard upfront, if built that way), and possibly Bottomless Pit if my own deck can weather the random discard. I sometimes consider Stronghold Rats, but mostly for being a good attacker in addition to the disruption. The Rats are also nearly strictly superior to Cunning Lethemancer for that reason, and because you actually get one more draw prior to the discard with the Rats. The standard Necrogen Mists looks great to players who are in love with effects that trigger every upkeep, but they are seriously lacking in impact.
LOTV gives you a little more immediacy on the discard, and the really longshot option of an edict in a pinch, but in exchange for being the most vulnerable permanent type in the entire game. Just a very underwhelming card in EDH stax.
Still, you could do worse than her, and if your deck can make benefits out of discarding cards through, say, Madness or reanimation, she becomes more tempting.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Granted, that game had me playing stax, an Angus Mackenzie creatureless deck, a Liliana Heretical Healer discard deck, and Oloro pillowfort. (Both Angus and Oloro got Tabernacle out, too, and I had Pendrell Mists because I'm too cheap to get an actual Tabernacle.) A planeswalker staying out long enough to hit its ultimate was not too surprising, and the only reason the Liliana deck didn't get the Defiant Necromancer emblem was because of my Pithing Needle.
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Liliana Vess is not very good. Her discard effect only hits one player, so unless you are finishing someone off, you are really only playing her for the tutor effect... and let's be honest, there are a lot better tutors in black than Liliana Vess. When you add in the fact that she fights for play space with other versions of herself (can't have more than one Liliana in play at once), she really isn't worth it. She was a lot better when her and Sorin were Black's only planeswalkers.
Liliana of the Veil is an amazing card in modern and (at least for me) an average card in EDH/Commander. Alone, she can help fight a resource war. You normally only draw one card a turn, and Liliana forces you to lose a card each turn she makes it around the table, so if you want to actually play cards from your hand, you will eventually run out of gas and find yourself in top deck mode. However, in black (and stax decks), you should have ways of generating positive card advantage and winning such a resource war. If you actually build around that, she can become even better. For example, Geth's Grimoire fits perfectly in a deck that has a variety of mass discard effects. Necroegen Mists, Bottomless Pit, Cunning Lethemancer, Word of Waste, Delirium Skeins, Unnerve, Syphon Mind, and those sorts of cards become all the better. Veilborn Ghoul is about as close to Squee, Goblin Nabob as mono black can get. While not great, it is a nice repeatable discard outlet.
So, in my opinion, LiliVeil is best when you have alread built your deck around similar effects. In my Ghoulcaller Gisa deck, which isn't Stax and as a result a bad example for this thread, LiliVeil has been underwhelming. I don't think she is an auto include in every black deck like some do.
She's still one of the best Lilianas (alongside flip-walker Lili) if only because the other two are so underwhelming, Vess can be too clunky for any fast metas with her 5cmc and Dark Realms doesn't do enough outside of a "big swamps" Cabal Coffers build.
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