I have always been a fan of milling. Spent my time during the llorwyn block at FNM as the mill player. I spent my time in Zendikar running a mill deck. I have always done what I could to play mill in competitive magic as I love eating the opponent's deck. Even Eldrazi player who sideboarded one against me would lose. In EDH however I have yet to find a way to build a successful mill deck than can be used in muti-player. (One thta mills the opponents, I have done one that mill myself early and win with Laboratory Maniac.
So I want Ideas, ways to utilize Phenax, God of Deception while not fully relying on him. I don't mind infinite combos, but the only infinite combo with him i know is Eater of Dead. I also do not want this to be extremely expensive as my bank account has other things to worry about. Still list cards that are more budget friendly as I may own them.
And don't worry about mana base i have that covered.
Some of the best mill options are contradictory. For instance, you probably want Planar Void, but then you're missing out on stuff that escalates very quickly like Consuming Aberration. The best solution might be cards that exile from the graveyard at instant speed.
I will also note that Tree of Perdition puts in a lot of work with Phenax.
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Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Some of the best mill options are contradictory. For instance, you probably want Planar Void, but then you're missing out on stuff that escalates very quickly like Consuming Aberration. The best solution might be cards that exile from the graveyard at instant speed.
I will also note that Tree of Perdition puts in a lot of work with Phenax.
on that note Tree is going into Doran. (Kinda wish he was a treefolk though)
Another real winner is Mesmeric Orb. It seems so insignificant but that's the trick - it usually doesn't get removed because it's non-threatening. If you stick it early is starts to quickly punish anyone casting bombs or overextending, and not just the land ramping players. Just last friday we almost had a game end with Undead Alchemist and Altar of the Brood. In a big enough game it's very likely to chain until everyone else is decked and you've exiled all their creatures. That combo works just fine without Phenax also, although it's much more reliable with him in play (I guess that requires haste though). I've seen Clone Legion and Rite of Replication use as finishers too.
I have played a couple of games with Phenax and one and obvious combo would be Mindcrank + Duskmantle Guildmage. It may not however suit you as it more often kills by damage than mill.
With huge cratures like Consuming Aberration or Sewer Nemesis you can try adding Altar of dementia. Altar should speed up thing whenever they try to kill your creature and get some more value of those who will die anyway.
Other cards I would consider: Traumatize - mind that the sooner you play it the more powerfull it is and I would look for options to recast it (Twincast or Dralnu, Lich Lord). Riddlekeeper - it will discourage people from attacking you(unless they want things in graveyard) it is 1/4 so it can block some minor threats and mill nicely with Phenax. Mind Grind - It may be quite good later in the game when you force somebody to search for 10 or more lands. Oona, Queen of the Fae - mills and puts some blockers(even better agains mono decks). Szadek, Lord of Secrets - I think it needs some testing. I used to play 1 vs 1 and he either was not able to connect with his attacks or I had better things to play. Anyway it might be better in multi. Jace's Erasure - if you plan on having a lot of draw Dreamborn Muse Extractor Demon Wrexial, The Risen Deep - why not use those milled cards? Jace, Memory Adept Memory Erosion Slagwurm Armor
You can also add walls if you want to mill with Phenax.
Do not forget about some graveyard hate also(Relic of Progenitus). I think that most of those cards are budget friendly(depending on your budget).
Most of the cards I would mention are cards that have already been mentioned, but I would like to expound upon their brokenness with Phenax.
Eater of the Dead is broken with Phenax alone, as you've noticed. You might have to prime graveyards with a few creatures (even if it's your own) before Eater comes down, but he can easily mill out a table by himself. This is the kind of situation where milling yourself a bit with everybody else via something like Mesmeric Orb is really handy.
Intruder Alarm turns on a number of ridiculous synergies with or without Phenax. You get to mill and make stupid numbers of tokens with Ghoulcaller Gisa with a ridiculous efficiency of your black mana, particularly if you can mill with the zombies immediately. Bloodline Keeper provides some air defense and goes infinite with Alarm. Undead Alchemist and Elixir cleared out more than one library in a game, just because I kept hitting creature cards. Curse of the Swine takes on another dimension of usefulness with Alarm.
My friends hate to see King Macar, the Gold-Cursed on the field because they know I run tappers like Springleaf Drum to give me a non-combat way of tapping my Inspired creatures. I once milled out two players' 80-85 card libraries because Macar had Slagwurm armor and Freed from the Real on him. Those Gold tokens just kept it going as long as there were creatures to target. Wiping the board while milling is great. Huge target on your head afterward, though.
If you run Disciple of Deceit, you only need to memorize the cmc of your "solution" cards at first.
Also, don't discount resource denial and control. You need to protect your stuff, so making your opponents discard can be handy. And some creatures like Surgespanner or Spellskite can help mill and control. (The latter is hilarious against Uril.)
If you use a toughness boost with untapping, such as Triton Tactics or Umbral Mantle, activate it in response to the mill ability activation, since that checks the toughness on resolution.
If you mill lightly at first, especially with triggers (such as Memory Erosion), it helps get rid of the top 20-30% of a deck while you set up for tap-milling the rest. Players in my meta, for example, don't mind 2 cards here and there, but there does come a point where they notice the size of their graveyard is approaching the size of their remaining library and start wanting you dead.
Milling yourself can be useful if you add a bit of reanimation. You end up with more options of creatures to bring in from your graveyard. You can also use those creatures to fuel Eater against creature-light decks.
That's what's weird about the psychology of milling -- it is not a disruption, but players feel like it is.
Milling yourself can be useful if you add a bit of reanimation. You end up with more options of creatures to bring in from your graveyard. You can also use those creatures to fuel Eater against creature-light decks.
That's what's weird about the psychology of milling -- it is not a disruption, but players feel like it is.
I feel it is disruption if your deck is meant to mill others, if you also mill yourself you are lacking those cards you need to mill the opponents.
If you are afraid of milling yourself you can also try Quest for Ancient Secrets but I feel is way weaker than Spiral.
I was thinking about Mind Funeral and Glimpse the Unthinkable and I would consider if this kind of single target + single use effects are significatn enough. I know I have mentioned Traumatize and Mind Grind myself but I think that Traumatize will usually mill twice or three times more cards than Glimpse or Funeral and Mind Grind gets stronger the longer the game is while those two do not. In addition I would not consider Glimpse a budget friendly card at all(Mind Sculpt can be a budget replacement) ... If you however like Mind Funeral you should consider Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker provided that it will connect with attack it can mill multiple times or block or mill from Phenax. Another addition that I would consider if you choose Mirko, Szadek or Wrexial would be Rogue's Passage to make it easier for those guys to reach your opponents.
You may also like Broken Ambitions as counter/mill option.
And what about Startled Awake as someting from the newer sets?
Well I own a glimpse so not too worried. (At least I think i do, How much is it now.
Ho crap 45 bucks please, PLEASE tell me i still have mine. I'll have to check my collection.
If i did sell it I will have to just put it on a wait list, and buy a new copy.
What is with the newer sets and the number 13?
As for control i have that covered. i have some really nice and even some very expensive counters.
Milling yourself can be useful if you add a bit of reanimation. You end up with more options of creatures to bring in from your graveyard. You can also use those creatures to fuel Eater against creature-light decks.
That's what's weird about the psychology of milling -- it is not a disruption, but players feel like it is.
I feel it is disruption if your deck is meant to mill others, if you also mill yourself you are lacking those cards you need to mill the opponents.
Lyonhaert is making a really important point there- and it's going to matter a lot that you understand what he's trying to say if you want to make a good mill deck. Milling people, in the vast majority of cases, benefits them rather than harming them until it actually causes them to lose. Don't think of milling alone as a disruptive gameplan.
I'm happy to give you a clear expansion of why, I just didn't want to do it here and come off as condescending if you already understand what I mean.
Milling yourself can be useful if you add a bit of reanimation. You end up with more options of creatures to bring in from your graveyard. You can also use those creatures to fuel Eater against creature-light decks.
That's what's weird about the psychology of milling -- it is not a disruption, but players feel like it is.
I feel it is disruption if your deck is meant to mill others, if you also mill yourself you are lacking those cards you need to mill the opponents.
Lyonhaert is making a really important point there- and it's going to matter a lot that you understand what he's trying to say if you want to make a good mill deck. Milling people, in the vast majority of cases, benefits them rather than harming them until it actually causes them to lose. Don't think of milling alone as a disruptive gameplan.
I'm happy to give you a clear expansion of why, I just didn't want to do it here and come off as condescending if you already understand what I mean.
If you are referring to graveplay i understand, however graveplay decks are very rare in my meta. We have a few but not enough for mill to not be painful.
What I mean is, independent of the graveyard, it almost never hampers people to mill them (Unless they're playing a toolbox deck or something). There are some cases, you mentioned the graveyard, in which it benefits them but that's not really the point.
What I mean is, independent of the graveyard, it almost never hampers people to mill them (Unless they're playing a toolbox deck or something). There are some cases, you mentioned the graveyard, in which it benefits them but that's not really the point.
There is a good number of toolbox/combo decks in my meta. Or synergy decks. Ones that can be hampered by mill.
Ah, understood. I was just trying to figure out if you're one of the players at my LGS who shows up to modern nights and can't figure out why his dimir deck never slows down all the Jund decks.
Well, that's good that they'll be hampered a bit by milling, but it's still very mild disruption at best.
What I meant about it feeling like disruption is that discard, sacrifice, tapping, removal, etc. are actual disruption to the forward progress of their gameplan most of the time. Milling, on the other hand, doesn't make a probabilistic impact on what cards they draw next. If the cards in the library are in a random order then any particular card has the same probability of being in any position in the library. A card the opponent needs has just as much chance of being the top card before milling as it does being the Nth card down (and possibly becoming the top card after milling N-1 cards).
Actually, if anything, for any particular card the opponent desires, the probability of drawing it increases as the size of the library decreases so long as it hasn't been milled yet.
Basically I was just trying to relate that an opponent's negative reaction to being milled is more emotional than objective.
As far as card suggestions, I forgot to mention that Ashiok has been pretty helpful. Comes down early, gets rid of some cards, makes people worry, and eats some attacks. They get paranoid about Ashiok's second and third abilities, I think, though I haven't used them yet. I have friends who have a compulsion to attack planeswalkers whenever one is on the board. Last week I cast Elspeth, Sun's Champion and immediately used her second ability. So she's got 1 loyalty counter and can't do anything but spit out a few soldiers that are just chump blockers as far as that deck is concerned, but somebody still thought running a 12/12 into her instead of me was the better choice. It's fun to exploit these behaviors.
So I want Ideas, ways to utilize Phenax, God of Deception while not fully relying on him. I don't mind infinite combos, but the only infinite combo with him i know is Eater of Dead. I also do not want this to be extremely expensive as my bank account has other things to worry about. Still list cards that are more budget friendly as I may own them.
And don't worry about mana base i have that covered.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I will also note that Tree of Perdition puts in a lot of work with Phenax.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
on that note Tree is going into Doran. (Kinda wish he was a treefolk though)
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
I y also add glimpse the unthinkable and mind funeral
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
You do not know my meta. That card is almost insta-kill. (then again when you ave two sidisi players who both have orb out, it is scary.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Mindcrank + Bloodchief Ascension for infinite mill/damage also both cards are very solid on their own.
Hinder or Spell Crumple or Proteus Staff + Tunnel Vision for a nasty knockout
Untaps:
Pemmin's Aura
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Umbral Mantle
Sword of the Paruns
Intruder Alarm
Thousand-Year Elixir
Creatures that do work when they untap:
Siren of the Silent Song
Arbiter of the Ideal
King Macar, the Gold-Cursed
Disciple of Deceit
Creatures that grow with the size of graveyards:
Mortivore
Nighthowler
Consuming Aberration
Wight of Precinct Six
Sewer Nemesis
Darn good cards to have:
Keening Stone
Guiltfeeder
Illusionist's Bracers
Geth, Lord of the Vault
Undead Alchemist
Profane Memento
Phenax - Mill
Breya - Combo
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Token
Oloros - Combo
Jeleva - eh...working on it
Yidris - Soft Combo
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Eater of the Dead is broken with Phenax alone, as you've noticed. You might have to prime graveyards with a few creatures (even if it's your own) before Eater comes down, but he can easily mill out a table by himself. This is the kind of situation where milling yourself a bit with everybody else via something like Mesmeric Orb is really handy.
Intruder Alarm turns on a number of ridiculous synergies with or without Phenax. You get to mill and make stupid numbers of tokens with Ghoulcaller Gisa with a ridiculous efficiency of your black mana, particularly if you can mill with the zombies immediately. Bloodline Keeper provides some air defense and goes infinite with Alarm. Undead Alchemist and Elixir cleared out more than one library in a game, just because I kept hitting creature cards. Curse of the Swine takes on another dimension of usefulness with Alarm.
My friends hate to see King Macar, the Gold-Cursed on the field because they know I run tappers like Springleaf Drum to give me a non-combat way of tapping my Inspired creatures. I once milled out two players' 80-85 card libraries because Macar had Slagwurm armor and Freed from the Real on him. Those Gold tokens just kept it going as long as there were creatures to target. Wiping the board while milling is great. Huge target on your head afterward, though.
If you run Disciple of Deceit, you only need to memorize the cmc of your "solution" cards at first.
Also, don't discount resource denial and control. You need to protect your stuff, so making your opponents discard can be handy. And some creatures like Surgespanner or Spellskite can help mill and control. (The latter is hilarious against Uril.)
You may need to exile pesky cards: Withered Wretch, Praetor's Grasp, Extract, etc.
Untap tricks like Domineering Will, Turnabout, Breaking Wave can help tactically as well as help finish someone off.
If you use a toughness boost with untapping, such as Triton Tactics or Umbral Mantle, activate it in response to the mill ability activation, since that checks the toughness on resolution.
Rather than Illusionist's Bracers (or in addition) you might consider Rings of Brighthearth.
For pillow forting, I have not found Riddlekeeper to be very dissuasive, especially against voltron or graveyard decks. I prefer Propaganda, Dissipation Field, No Mercy, Silent Arbiter, Crawlspace, Meishin, the Mind Cage.
Draw-milling via cards like Memory Jar, Jace's Archivist, and Forced Fruition is a valid strategy, too.
If you mill lightly at first, especially with triggers (such as Memory Erosion), it helps get rid of the top 20-30% of a deck while you set up for tap-milling the rest. Players in my meta, for example, don't mind 2 cards here and there, but there does come a point where they notice the size of their graveyard is approaching the size of their remaining library and start wanting you dead.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Phenax - Mill
Breya - Combo
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Token
Oloros - Combo
Jeleva - eh...working on it
Yidris - Soft Combo
i was worried about milling myself, but now it seems everything is okay.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
That's what's weird about the psychology of milling -- it is not a disruption, but players feel like it is.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I feel it is disruption if your deck is meant to mill others, if you also mill yourself you are lacking those cards you need to mill the opponents.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Ho crap 45 bucks please, PLEASE tell me i still have mine. I'll have to check my collection.
If i did sell it I will have to just put it on a wait list, and buy a new copy.
What is with the newer sets and the number 13?
As for control i have that covered. i have some really nice and even some very expensive counters.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Lyonhaert is making a really important point there- and it's going to matter a lot that you understand what he's trying to say if you want to make a good mill deck. Milling people, in the vast majority of cases, benefits them rather than harming them until it actually causes them to lose. Don't think of milling alone as a disruptive gameplan.
I'm happy to give you a clear expansion of why, I just didn't want to do it here and come off as condescending if you already understand what I mean.
If you are referring to graveplay i understand, however graveplay decks are very rare in my meta. We have a few but not enough for mill to not be painful.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
There is a good number of toolbox/combo decks in my meta. Or synergy decks. Ones that can be hampered by mill.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
What I meant about it feeling like disruption is that discard, sacrifice, tapping, removal, etc. are actual disruption to the forward progress of their gameplan most of the time. Milling, on the other hand, doesn't make a probabilistic impact on what cards they draw next. If the cards in the library are in a random order then any particular card has the same probability of being in any position in the library. A card the opponent needs has just as much chance of being the top card before milling as it does being the Nth card down (and possibly becoming the top card after milling N-1 cards).
Actually, if anything, for any particular card the opponent desires, the probability of drawing it increases as the size of the library decreases so long as it hasn't been milled yet.
Basically I was just trying to relate that an opponent's negative reaction to being milled is more emotional than objective.
As far as card suggestions, I forgot to mention that Ashiok has been pretty helpful. Comes down early, gets rid of some cards, makes people worry, and eats some attacks. They get paranoid about Ashiok's second and third abilities, I think, though I haven't used them yet. I have friends who have a compulsion to attack planeswalkers whenever one is on the board. Last week I cast Elspeth, Sun's Champion and immediately used her second ability. So she's got 1 loyalty counter and can't do anything but spit out a few soldiers that are just chump blockers as far as that deck is concerned, but somebody still thought running a 12/12 into her instead of me was the better choice. It's fun to exploit these behaviors.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko