I have just been thinking about some of the more subtle things about the game and I realized that I tend to have more of a problem with the player to my right than I do the player to my left when I play games. Why is this you ask? If you ask me there are two things to be gained by seating position at a game.
When rolling to see who goes first the person to your right has a much higher chance of having an extra turn on you because you only have 1/4 chance of being first. That person on average will be a turn up on you because of this. You have 1/4 chance to be first at any given game which means they have a 3/4s chance of being before you which means they will on average have more resources than you.
When going around the table in turn order assuming you have responses in hand you have to keep those responses the longest to get to that last person. That means if you are sitting on counters the two players before them will be casting and doing things that may require responses as well meaning that the last person has some advantage when it comes to your response window.
So, I guess I am curious if anyone does take heed in who is sitting where and where you sit yourself when it comes to a game of magic. Obviously the things I have brought up can be minor but I guess its just something small to think about next time you go to sit down at a table. Look who will be on your left and who will be on your right. If you ask me you have small but distinct advantage on the person you put to your left.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
There's also the case where you're sitting on a Counterspell and a Windfall/Time Spiral effect and "want" the Counterspell to be used before losing them anyway. (unless there's other blue at the table)
In cases like these, I feel the player to my right has the least amount of luck as anything he casts won't happen either way.
It's subtle things like this, that put the disadvantage in the other direction.
I suppose it comes down a little to how you tend to play also when it comes to answers. Some people will try to avoid blowing their one answer on the next person because it means that the next two people will leave you tapped out on. Its a little bit of a mentality of play on the answers front. The going before them 3/4 of the time though is still strong with the person to the right though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I never change where I sit based on decks, but being the guy to go after the counterspell heavy blue deck is horrible.
Every turn looks like:
-Blue player: Threat, leave mana up, pass
-You: Threat that gets countered, blue player now has no untapped mana
-Next player: Even bigger threat that can't be answered
-Next player: Even bigger threat that can't be answered
I look at it opposite from Carthage, I hate going before the blue/reactive player. That's when they're MOST likely to use their answers. The best seat in my mind is 2 of 4, in that scenario.
That being said, I have considered seat placement before jumping into a pod with certain known control decks.
Personally, I don't find that Blue players in my group will use their counterspells before their turn just because they have them. There are enough Tooth and Nails being slung that they'll hold them. For that reason, it's most advantageous to sit to the right of the control player in my group, as the second person who attempts to combo often is more likely to succeed.
A lot of time seating order will matter in terms of whose abilities go on the stack first, or who has the first chance to respond. For example, if I'm the one holding onto a counterspell, and the person to my right casts his Food Chain or what have you, I may suspect that other players are holding counters, and would obviously rather them burn their resources than me (and bluff not having a counterspell), but if I decline to respond and they don't have anything, then everyone's passed priority and the spell resolves and we all lose. Or someone casts a wheel effect, and I burn an instant for little value just to get something out of it, and someone further down the line counters the wheel.
It's something that everyone in the game has to deal with, and it wouldn't be something we could be prepared for... except for the fact that EDH is a format where you typically know your opponents. One reason it's nice to have more than one deck I guess, so my opponents can't assume I do/don't have counters and seat themselves accordingly.
Personally, I don't find that Blue players in my group will use their counterspells before their turn just because they have them. There are enough Tooth and Nails being slung that they'll hold them. For that reason, it's most advantageous to sit to the right of the control player in my group, as the second person who attempts to combo often is more likely to succeed.
Well ofcourse not, I was just showing a scenario where you only have a Counterspell and a Time Spiral-kind of card as your last two cards in hand, which are not uncommon situations in control.
It definitely can have an impact on the game, but I don't consciously try for an optimal seat. Feels sort of scummy to me, at least in my casual playgroup.
It matters a whole lot with counterspells. If you are immediately to the left of the blue player, you have to deal with more countermagic than the player to blue's right.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
.
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
I don't worry about what the turn order is or who I play before/after, but my playgroup has a lot of 5 and 6 player games on rectangular tables, and as the control player, I like to sit in the middle seats so I can see what's going on.
I make a note of which players are sitting where and what decks they're playing when the games begin, but I never pick my seat before hand based on that information. I think people should be aware of who is where in the turn order, especially in relation to counter magic, but shouldn't worry too much over it. It's more accurate and less stressful to view it as just another level of randomness or variance in the match.
I don't actively look to choose my seat based on where other people are sitting, but I have definitely noticed its impact on games. For example, one game I was sitting directly to the left of the Maelstrom Wanderer player. Every time me or another would board wipe, everyone else at the table would have a chance to either leave open mana for removal or play creatures to block with. This meant that every time the Wanderer player would cast his general, I was the one getting smacked in the face. Even though I played more removal in that game than anyone else, I was the first one dead to being attacked over and over without being able to defend myself.
Christ, why is this topic in double-digit posts? Why do you guys play competitively or even think about this stuff? I just try to play some stuff and see what I can do before other people do their stuff.
Christ, why is this topic in double-digit posts? Why do you guys play competitively or even think about this stuff? I just try to play some stuff and see what I can do before other people do their stuff.
It's not even a matter of level of competition. Even in relatively casual groups it's been my observation that "when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail" applies to countermagic. It probably applies to countermagic MORE in casual groups.
On the blue player with counterspells thing: I'm glad to say generally speaking the blue players at my LGS don't just impatiently counter everything the player after them casts and actually do threat-assessment first (they really can't be blamed if they played the prediction game wrongly on who might cast the biggest threat in that turn cycle though).
However, for all the threat-assessment they do (and every other playgroup that does)... I think it's safe to say if you're the player going before the blue-counterspell player, you statistically still stand a better chance of getting your stuff not countered, unless they turn out to be those over-cautious until the last-minute players and you end up with the short end instead (or just have enough mana and spells to counter everybody, but that's not the point).
Not that I really care where I sit anyway, I have trust that they do threat assessment and generally don't completely mess up the prediction games.
There's two guys who play counterspells in my group. I like to be as close to last to act prior to their turn as possible to reduce the risk of my stuff getting countered.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I think EDH would be more fun for the majority of participants if players just showed eachother their decks rather than actually playing games out."
Yes it matters but magic is a complicated fans and as to which seat you want to be in changes game to have and deck to deck just like everything else. Hell even Simone playstyle matters. In general I want to win the die roll and go first and after that I want to be next to the guy who wins the die roll and go second. I would guess based on memory of personal experience that wether I go first or last tends to matter more than who's to my left and right at just about any power level. There are however tables where I do not want to be the first to play after the guy who litteraly plays 20-30 counters with a personally equivalent to an itchy trigger finger and sprints counters at anything as soon as possible. So as always " yes but it depends"
if you sit to the left of the guy who goes first, theres definitely a higher chance that you're gonna have fewer turns, since you're the last in the round to go. having 1 less draw, land drop and so on really can put a damper on your progress. having said that, if you're playing a control deck, it might be more beneficial for you, since you get to see what you need to react to during that round, and you have more time to choose what you actually need to react to.
but overall, unless its star, emperor or some other variants, i dont think i really care about who sits where.
I do get pretty annoyed when I find the blue mage sitting to my right whimsically tossing out counterspells at the end of my turn just because he assumed I had the bigger threats. There is sometimes a desire to just spend the excess counter magic you have if you know you can untap and still have another counter ready.
This largely goes away when the control deck is more experienced with what the entire table is playing, and being able to know what is worth countering, but at newbie tables or with unfamiliar players, it is pretty frustrating.
It is not always just the guy with countermagic sitting to your right that can be frustrating. If the guy who has the most mass removal sits to your left, then playing out creatures becomes a pretty tedious task. If your deck wants to attack, then you need creatures, and the players to your right will want creatures to block yours, and if MrDamnation sits to your left, then they have little reason to not wipe the table when they can. This is even more punishing when (stupidly) playing a voltron deck in multiplayer and any sort of grave-yard shenanigan deck with fleshbag marauder variants sits to your left.
I never change where I sit based on decks, but being the guy to go after the counterspell heavy blue deck is horrible.
Every turn looks like:
-Blue player: Threat, leave mana up, pass
-You: Threat that gets countered, blue player now has no untapped mana
-Next player: Even bigger threat that can't be answered
-Next player: Even bigger threat that can't be answered
Sad times.
This reads like a bad blue player to me.
It kinda matters I mean sure everyone likes going at the end step of the turn before theirs if at all possible because it makes you look more threatening.
It comes down to threat assessment. The political aspect the nips at my heels is when the other players gamble that you will respond to a threat from the player on your left. Sometimes I let it through, even if I have an answer...why should I spend my resources for the player on my left? They're for the player on my right...
I am not sure I've got the idea correctly, but we always play on the floor, on the rectangular carpet and two opposite players attack each other more often than other two opposite players because they sit too close/too far from each other. That's how it works.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
There's also the case where you're sitting on a Counterspell and a Windfall/Time Spiral effect and "want" the Counterspell to be used before losing them anyway. (unless there's other blue at the table)
In cases like these, I feel the player to my right has the least amount of luck as anything he casts won't happen either way.
It's subtle things like this, that put the disadvantage in the other direction.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Every turn looks like:
-Blue player: Threat, leave mana up, pass
-You: Threat that gets countered, blue player now has no untapped mana
-Next player: Even bigger threat that can't be answered
-Next player: Even bigger threat that can't be answered
Sad times.
That being said, I have considered seat placement before jumping into a pod with certain known control decks.
A lot of time seating order will matter in terms of whose abilities go on the stack first, or who has the first chance to respond. For example, if I'm the one holding onto a counterspell, and the person to my right casts his Food Chain or what have you, I may suspect that other players are holding counters, and would obviously rather them burn their resources than me (and bluff not having a counterspell), but if I decline to respond and they don't have anything, then everyone's passed priority and the spell resolves and we all lose. Or someone casts a wheel effect, and I burn an instant for little value just to get something out of it, and someone further down the line counters the wheel.
It's something that everyone in the game has to deal with, and it wouldn't be something we could be prepared for... except for the fact that EDH is a format where you typically know your opponents. One reason it's nice to have more than one deck I guess, so my opponents can't assume I do/don't have counters and seat themselves accordingly.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Well ofcourse not, I was just showing a scenario where you only have a Counterspell and a Time Spiral-kind of card as your last two cards in hand, which are not uncommon situations in control.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
Click here and check out my Formerly Pauper Cube.
check out my EDH and Pauper EDH decks here
Going after the group hug guy ensures I get to use his hugs; going right before him typically means his hugs are gone before I go again.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls - Knowledge is Power U [Primer]
R Heartless Hidetsugu - The Art of Ending Games R
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - The Cluster HungersBG
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
It's not even a matter of level of competition. Even in relatively casual groups it's been my observation that "when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail" applies to countermagic. It probably applies to countermagic MORE in casual groups.
GReki, the History of Kamigawa Legendfall
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest Drawmaster of Trest | GBGlissa the Traitor A Touch of Death | WBTeysa, Orzhov Scion Spinning in Graves
UWIsperia, Supreme Judge A Riddles of Sphinxes | RG Mena and Denn, Wildborn Beware Falling Rocks | GWSigarda, Host of Hurons The Enchantress
WRGRith the Awakener Superfriendly Tokens
However, for all the threat-assessment they do (and every other playgroup that does)... I think it's safe to say if you're the player going before the blue-counterspell player, you statistically still stand a better chance of getting your stuff not countered, unless they turn out to be those over-cautious until the last-minute players and you end up with the short end instead (or just have enough mana and spells to counter everybody, but that's not the point).
Not that I really care where I sit anyway, I have trust that they do threat assessment and generally don't completely mess up the prediction games.
There's two guys who play counterspells in my group. I like to be as close to last to act prior to their turn as possible to reduce the risk of my stuff getting countered.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
but overall, unless its star, emperor or some other variants, i dont think i really care about who sits where.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
This largely goes away when the control deck is more experienced with what the entire table is playing, and being able to know what is worth countering, but at newbie tables or with unfamiliar players, it is pretty frustrating.
It is not always just the guy with countermagic sitting to your right that can be frustrating. If the guy who has the most mass removal sits to your left, then playing out creatures becomes a pretty tedious task. If your deck wants to attack, then you need creatures, and the players to your right will want creatures to block yours, and if MrDamnation sits to your left, then they have little reason to not wipe the table when they can. This is even more punishing when (stupidly) playing a voltron deck in multiplayer and any sort of grave-yard shenanigan deck with fleshbag marauder variants sits to your left.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
This reads like a bad blue player to me.
It kinda matters I mean sure everyone likes going at the end step of the turn before theirs if at all possible because it makes you look more threatening.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.