4 mana for a card that taps to ping Someone for 27. Pretty strong in your typical casual mono black big mana I kill with grey merchant and exsanguinate style deck? Doran at least should be happy
Another effect that interacts poorly with edh and feels terrible to play against like sorin and magister sphinx. Bad in competitive and not fun to play against in casual. Useless card.
I can't wait to be at 13 life on turn 2 because someone goes sol ring -> lighting greaves -> this. Gonna have a real fun game of edh when that happens.
Another effect that interacts poorly with edh and feels terrible to play against like sorin and magister sphinx. Bad in competitive and not fun to play against in casual. Useless card.
I can't wait to be at 13 life on turn 2 because someone goes sol ring -> lighting greaves -> this. Gonna have a real fun game of edh when that happens.
Blame fast mana not the tree mate
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
The "exchange" part makes it kind of anemic in multiplayer, but I like the political aspect of it (make the tree a 0/40 and then later save someone from death by making their life total 40 and then turn it on the biggest threat). Cool card, hope I can get it with Triskaidekaphobia in limited at least once.
Another effect that interacts poorly with edh and feels terrible to play against like sorin and magister sphinx. Bad in competitive and not fun to play against in casual. Useless card.
I can't wait to be at 13 life on turn 2 because someone goes sol ring -> lighting greaves -> this. Gonna have a real fun game of edh when that happens.
I don't know if you're being serious or over-estimating the amount this card will see play...
Another effect that interacts poorly with edh and feels terrible to play against like sorin and magister sphinx. Bad in competitive and not fun to play against in casual. Useless card.
I can't wait to be at 13 life on turn 2 because someone goes sol ring -> lighting greaves -> this. Gonna have a real fun game of edh when that happens.
I don't know if you're being serious or over-estimating the amount this card will see play...
It doesn't really matter how much it sees play.
Everyone who puts it into their casual deck has failed the "is it fun to play against" test.
No one is going to put it into their competitive deck because it is way to slow.
There is no reason for this card to see any amount of play.
Another effect that interacts poorly with edh and feels terrible to play against like sorin and magister sphinx. Bad in competitive and not fun to play against in casual. Useless card.
I can't wait to be at 13 life on turn 2 because someone goes sol ring -> lighting greaves -> this. Gonna have a real fun game of edh when that happens.
I don't know if you're being serious or over-estimating the amount this card will see play...
It doesn't really matter how much it sees play.
Everyone who puts it into their casual deck has failed the "is it fun to play against" test.
No one is going to put it into their competitive deck because it is way to slow.
There is no reason for this card to see any amount of play.
Cards aren't unfun to play against. Players are what make things unfun. And the least fun to play against, regardless of how casual or competitive a group is, are those that wont stop whining about everything.
Another effect that interacts poorly with edh and feels terrible to play against like sorin and magister sphinx. Bad in competitive and not fun to play against in casual. Useless card.
I can't wait to be at 13 life on turn 2 because someone goes sol ring -> lighting greaves -> this. Gonna have a real fun game of edh when that happens.
I don't know if you're being serious or over-estimating the amount this card will see play...
It doesn't really matter how much it sees play.
Everyone who puts it into their casual deck has failed the "is it fun to play against" test.
No one is going to put it into their competitive deck because it is way to slow.
There is no reason for this card to see any amount of play.
Cards aren't unfun to play against. Players are what make things unfun. And the least fun to play against, regardless of how casual or competitive a group is, are those that wont stop whining about everything.
This is empirically false. The existence of the edh ban list is a perfect example. It's not a good time if someone casts a card like limited resources.
I hate apologists who think that just because a card sees print it makes for a good game. They aren't better players for just accepting every card as legitimate. Apply some simple thought to how people will react to a given card.
This card for example:
-They can't block it
-If there is a haste enabler, only instant speed removal works. Two of the most played cards in commander are haste enablers( lightning greaves and swiftfoot boots
-Even if they have instant speed removal, it's very possible they tapped out for some threat because you can't answer an entire multiplayer table.
-Then it taps to do 27 damage. Clearly WAY over the normal intended effect for a tap, so you are just taking advantage of a stupid rule difference. In normal games, letting this thing tap nets you 7 damage to the opponent, which is much more in line with what you'd expect from a 4 mana card.
-Even if you don't die immediately after, your whole gameplan for the rest of the game is messed up because your life total is so low, so there are tons of options you can no longer take.
Overall it's a very, very poor card to play against and should not be included by anyone who wants a table to have fun.
This is empirically false. The existence of the edh ban list is a perfect example. It's not a good time if someone casts a card like limited resources.
I hate apologists who think that just because a card sees print it makes for a good game. They aren't better players for just accepting every card as legitimate. Apply some simple thought to how people will react to a given card.
This card for example:
-They can't block it
-If there is a haste enabler, only instant speed removal works. Two of the most played cards in commander are haste enablers( lightning greaves and swiftfoot boots
-Even if they have instant speed removal, it's very possible they tapped out for some threat because you can't answer an entire multiplayer table.
-Then it taps to do 27 damage. Clearly WAY over the normal intended effect for a tap, so you are just taking advantage of a stupid rule difference. In normal games, letting this thing tap nets you 7 damage to the opponent, which is much more in line with what you'd expect from a 4 mana card.
-Even if you don't die immediately after, your whole gameplan for the rest of the game is messed up because your life total is so low, so there are tons of options you can no longer take.
Overall it's a very, very poor card to play against and should not be included by anyone who wants a table to have fun.
Even cards like limited Resources aren't inherently unfun. It depends how they're used - i.e. it depends on the players. That's not to say I think it should be unbanned, but that ultimately, everything comes down to the people playing not the cards they're using. And frankly, it's a lot less fun to play against someone who is constantly whining and *****ing and trying to force their personal interpretation of how a format is supposed to be played upon everyone else than it is playing against any card with decent people.
As for this particular one, wow. It's really not that impressive. So I lost 27 life. Big deal. If you're playing "competitively", you should be glad you didn't lose all your life to an infinite combo, and if you're playing "casually", you've got plenty of time to recover given the slowness of the typical casual EDH game.
And hell, stupid effects like this are exactly what drew many people to the format in the first place.
This is empirically false. The existence of the edh ban list is a perfect example. It's not a good time if someone casts a card like limited resources.
I hate apologists who think that just because a card sees print it makes for a good game. They aren't better players for just accepting every card as legitimate. Apply some simple thought to how people will react to a given card.
This card for example:
-They can't block it
-If there is a haste enabler, only instant speed removal works. Two of the most played cards in commander are haste enablers( lightning greaves and swiftfoot boots
-Even if they have instant speed removal, it's very possible they tapped out for some threat because you can't answer an entire multiplayer table.
-Then it taps to do 27 damage. Clearly WAY over the normal intended effect for a tap, so you are just taking advantage of a stupid rule difference. In normal games, letting this thing tap nets you 7 damage to the opponent, which is much more in line with what you'd expect from a 4 mana card.
-Even if you don't die immediately after, your whole gameplan for the rest of the game is messed up because your life total is so low, so there are tons of options you can no longer take.
Overall it's a very, very poor card to play against and should not be included by anyone who wants a table to have fun.
Even cards like limited Resources aren't inherently unfun. It depends how they're used - i.e. it depends on the players. That's not to say I think it should be unbanned, but that ultimately, everything comes down to the people playing not the cards they're using. And frankly, it's a lot less fun to play against someone who is constantly whining and *****ing and trying to force their personal interpretation of how a format is supposed to be played upon everyone else than it is playing against any card with decent people.
As for this particular one, wow. It's really not that impressive. So I lost 27 life. Big deal. If you're playing "competitively", you should be glad you didn't lose all your life to an infinite combo, and if you're playing "casually", you've got plenty of time to recover given the slowness of the typical casual EDH game.
And hell, stupid effects like this are exactly what drew many people to the format in the first place.
No, it's not just the players.
Take the vintage super league for example. I'll bet almost anything it is the main reason lodestone golem saw a restriction in the latest update to the vintage banned list.
You have some of the most prominent, well known pro players in the world, and what are they doing? Complaining about shops in vintage in their post match talks.
You can try and argue that certain cards have narrow cases in which the table can enjoy them, but those are still extremely narrow cases. The average use case of most of the cards on the ban list does not make the game more enjoyable.
Cards can be inherently less fun to play against. Saying the occasional person can like them doesn't change that 99% of the playerbase won't enjoy going against them.
Not realizing this makes anyone a less fun player at a table. The game is not about winning, it's about making sure the table is having a good time.
This is empirically false. The existence of the edh ban list is a perfect example. It's not a good time if someone casts a card like limited resources.
I hate apologists who think that just because a card sees print it makes for a good game. They aren't better players for just accepting every card as legitimate. Apply some simple thought to how people will react to a given card.
This card for example:
-They can't block it
-If there is a haste enabler, only instant speed removal works. Two of the most played cards in commander are haste enablers( lightning greaves and swiftfoot boots
-Even if they have instant speed removal, it's very possible they tapped out for some threat because you can't answer an entire multiplayer table.
-Then it taps to do 27 damage. Clearly WAY over the normal intended effect for a tap, so you are just taking advantage of a stupid rule difference. In normal games, letting this thing tap nets you 7 damage to the opponent, which is much more in line with what you'd expect from a 4 mana card.
-Even if you don't die immediately after, your whole gameplan for the rest of the game is messed up because your life total is so low, so there are tons of options you can no longer take.
Overall it's a very, very poor card to play against and should not be included by anyone who wants a table to have fun.
Even cards like limited Resources aren't inherently unfun. It depends how they're used - i.e. it depends on the players. That's not to say I think it should be unbanned, but that ultimately, everything comes down to the people playing not the cards they're using. And frankly, it's a lot less fun to play against someone who is constantly whining and *****ing and trying to force their personal interpretation of how a format is supposed to be played upon everyone else than it is playing against any card with decent people.
As for this particular one, wow. It's really not that impressive. So I lost 27 life. Big deal. If you're playing "competitively", you should be glad you didn't lose all your life to an infinite combo, and if you're playing "casually", you've got plenty of time to recover given the slowness of the typical casual EDH game.
And hell, stupid effects like this are exactly what drew many people to the format in the first place.
Exactly. I'm eager to throw this in my Phenax deck just to be able to mill for 13. If its own tap ability is necessary, great. Otherwise it's a great rattlesnake to eat some of the targeted removal my meta runs. It's the same reason I run Ashiok in the deck. I never actually have activated Ashiok's second or third abilities, but it'll distract opponents that irrationally dislike planeswalkers and eat some attacks. That's value to me for 3 mana.
Considering there are cards that set people to 10 that see play, I wouldn't be surprised if this saw play for the same reason, though you do need haste or to untap making it considerably worse.
IMO, I'll probably play around with it a little, but it won't survive any long term cuts.
Not realizing this makes anyone a less fun player at a table. The game is not about winning, it's about making sure the table is having a good time.
If no one at the table is making an effort to win, I'm not having a good time. I would be miserable at a table full of group hug decks. This is still a game with clearly defined goals and trying to win the game doesn't preclude you from considering other player's experiences. What the table finds fun also varies wildly from group to group. I wouldn't want to play against prison and stax all the time, but they're fun every once in a while. Playing against nothing but midrange-y goodstuff decks would be extremely boring after a little while. As an aside, if any vintage restrictions are based around what's not fun something has gone horribly, horribly wrong with that format's management.
I like Tree. I don't know how much I'll play with or against it, but it's an interesting card.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
You know, I can't believe I agree with Carthage, but I do. This design is a neat call back to Tree of Redemption but, like Magister Sphinx and Sorin Markov, it will only cause groans around the table when its played. At least from me. I can understand while people like it, just like I understand why people like group hug and chaos decks. But, like those decks, I'll try to avoid tables playing this card.
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EDH UBRJeleva, Nephalia's Scourge BWTeysa,Orzhov Scion GWKarametra, God of Harvests UW Dragonlord Ojutai R Daretti, Scrap Savant
I have been thinking about a Vhati deck for a while and this tree might put it over the edge.
Independent of any combos this is just an awesome card.
I will definitely be plugging this into my Vhati deck. While I don't want to come out of the gate swinging with a massive life drain like this, I do like the option to tutor it up in the later rounds to bring a game closer to it's end. Use Tree + Vhati and then finish off with my [[Staff of Nin]] for the win.
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Not realizing this makes anyone a less fun player at a table. The game is not about winning, it's about making sure the table is having a good time.
If no one at the table is making an effort to win, I'm not having a good time. I would be miserable at a table full of group hug decks. This is still a game with clearly defined goals and trying to win the game doesn't preclude you from considering other player's experiences. What the table finds fun also varies wildly from group to group. I wouldn't want to play against prison and stax all the time, but they're fun every once in a while. Playing against nothing but midrange-y goodstuff decks would be extremely boring after a little while. As an aside, if any vintage restrictions are based around what's not fun something has gone horribly, horribly wrong with that format's management.
I like Tree. I don't know how much I'll play with or against it, but it's an interesting card.
You can try to win and still try to do it in a fun way.
For example, from this same set, docent of perfection + a bunch of cantrips to create a flying wizard army. You can block fliers, you can remove the docent, to make it fast you need a mass haste enabler which is much rarer/more expensive than the single haste enabler. You don't feel bad for losing to it because it's not abusing any rules, it's not excessively fast, it doesn't single anyone out, the setup required to speed it up is extensive etc.
You are still trying to win the game, you just deliberately doing it in a way that the whole table can interact with and enjoy.
I believe the tree's most common use case will be coming down on turns 2, 3 or 4, and tapping to ruin one player's game, where that guy is now miserable for the rest of the game, which could be a long time. Perhaps they die really early because of the life loss, at which point they could be out of a game that could otherwise go on for an hour or more in the first 10 minutes. That's not a fun gathering. That's a "screw you guys I'm going home" moment.
Another use case that I'm sure will happen frequently is the classic "oh I won't actually use powerful play X that I included in my deck, it's not fun." In this case, replace X with tree of perdition tapping. Then the moment they feel threatened they will bust it out after convincing themselves that because they delayed it by a turn it's suddenly ok. God I hate it when players do that.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I can see Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim using it to great effect to wipe a table with it, her ability, and Vizkopa Guildmage too.
I can't wait to be at 13 life on turn 2 because someone goes sol ring -> lighting greaves -> this. Gonna have a real fun game of edh when that happens.
It makes me wish my buddy still had his oloro deck together. I wouldn't mind a 0/100 blocker and a nearly dead oloro player.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Blame fast mana not the tree mate
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
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| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
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[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
This one has the potential to be incredible nuts.
Cool card, but it seems to be very dangerous.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
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Cheers!
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It doesn't really matter how much it sees play.
Everyone who puts it into their casual deck has failed the "is it fun to play against" test.
No one is going to put it into their competitive deck because it is way to slow.
There is no reason for this card to see any amount of play.
Cards aren't unfun to play against. Players are what make things unfun. And the least fun to play against, regardless of how casual or competitive a group is, are those that wont stop whining about everything.
This is empirically false. The existence of the edh ban list is a perfect example. It's not a good time if someone casts a card like limited resources.
I hate apologists who think that just because a card sees print it makes for a good game. They aren't better players for just accepting every card as legitimate. Apply some simple thought to how people will react to a given card.
This card for example:
-They can't block it
-If there is a haste enabler, only instant speed removal works. Two of the most played cards in commander are haste enablers( lightning greaves and swiftfoot boots
-Even if they have instant speed removal, it's very possible they tapped out for some threat because you can't answer an entire multiplayer table.
-Then it taps to do 27 damage. Clearly WAY over the normal intended effect for a tap, so you are just taking advantage of a stupid rule difference. In normal games, letting this thing tap nets you 7 damage to the opponent, which is much more in line with what you'd expect from a 4 mana card.
-Even if you don't die immediately after, your whole gameplan for the rest of the game is messed up because your life total is so low, so there are tons of options you can no longer take.
Overall it's a very, very poor card to play against and should not be included by anyone who wants a table to have fun.
Even cards like limited Resources aren't inherently unfun. It depends how they're used - i.e. it depends on the players. That's not to say I think it should be unbanned, but that ultimately, everything comes down to the people playing not the cards they're using. And frankly, it's a lot less fun to play against someone who is constantly whining and *****ing and trying to force their personal interpretation of how a format is supposed to be played upon everyone else than it is playing against any card with decent people.
As for this particular one, wow. It's really not that impressive. So I lost 27 life. Big deal. If you're playing "competitively", you should be glad you didn't lose all your life to an infinite combo, and if you're playing "casually", you've got plenty of time to recover given the slowness of the typical casual EDH game.
And hell, stupid effects like this are exactly what drew many people to the format in the first place.
No, it's not just the players.
Take the vintage super league for example. I'll bet almost anything it is the main reason lodestone golem saw a restriction in the latest update to the vintage banned list.
You have some of the most prominent, well known pro players in the world, and what are they doing? Complaining about shops in vintage in their post match talks.
You can try and argue that certain cards have narrow cases in which the table can enjoy them, but those are still extremely narrow cases. The average use case of most of the cards on the ban list does not make the game more enjoyable.
Cards can be inherently less fun to play against. Saying the occasional person can like them doesn't change that 99% of the playerbase won't enjoy going against them.
Not realizing this makes anyone a less fun player at a table. The game is not about winning, it's about making sure the table is having a good time.
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old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Cards awesome, just the type of stuff I love to see in EDH.
Never, ever, ever heard of somebody complain about a 0 power creature, regardless of its effect.
IMO, I'll probably play around with it a little, but it won't survive any long term cuts.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
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I have been thinking about a Vhati deck for a while and this tree might put it over the edge.
Independent of any combos this is just an awesome card.
In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
I like Tree. I don't know how much I'll play with or against it, but it's an interesting card.
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
BWTeysa,Orzhov Scion
GWKarametra, God of Harvests
UW Dragonlord Ojutai
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
Modern
GB Tron
UW UW Control
I will definitely be plugging this into my Vhati deck. While I don't want to come out of the gate swinging with a massive life drain like this, I do like the option to tutor it up in the later rounds to bring a game closer to it's end. Use Tree + Vhati and then finish off with my [[Staff of Nin]] for the win.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
You can try to win and still try to do it in a fun way.
For example, from this same set, docent of perfection + a bunch of cantrips to create a flying wizard army. You can block fliers, you can remove the docent, to make it fast you need a mass haste enabler which is much rarer/more expensive than the single haste enabler. You don't feel bad for losing to it because it's not abusing any rules, it's not excessively fast, it doesn't single anyone out, the setup required to speed it up is extensive etc.
You are still trying to win the game, you just deliberately doing it in a way that the whole table can interact with and enjoy.
I believe the tree's most common use case will be coming down on turns 2, 3 or 4, and tapping to ruin one player's game, where that guy is now miserable for the rest of the game, which could be a long time. Perhaps they die really early because of the life loss, at which point they could be out of a game that could otherwise go on for an hour or more in the first 10 minutes. That's not a fun gathering. That's a "screw you guys I'm going home" moment.
Another use case that I'm sure will happen frequently is the classic "oh I won't actually use powerful play X that I included in my deck, it's not fun." In this case, replace X with tree of perdition tapping. Then the moment they feel threatened they will bust it out after convincing themselves that because they delayed it by a turn it's suddenly ok. God I hate it when players do that.