Is anyone actually impressed to see these cards win a game? Too me it always feels like "oh we were having a fun game and then he cast X and all previous play is now pretty much irrelevant"
krosan grip?
Sudden spoiling?
misc other instants... red has copy spells which would work on the "rise of the dark realms"
silence?
Lots of things to do.
not to mention graveyard hate...(which every deck should have at least 1-2 cards for this... if possible.)
Of the ones listed, I have never seen anyone cast Insurrection, Living Death, or Mizzix's Mastery. I have personally cast Omniscience and Enter the Infinite but I play them in one deck that is meant to win as quickly as possible and I pretty much never play the deck. I have never seen anyone else cast them.
Rite of Replication has been seen a couple of times. The most common target is Solemn Simulacrum but I have seen it target Grave Titan to pretty good effect. Neither were even close to game breaking plays.
I have only seen Rise of the Dark Realms once and I don't even remember what came of it. It was such a non-event that it doesn't even register as being a big deal. I am pretty sure there was at least some instant speed grave hate involved. They may have won but I honestly don't remember.
I don't view any of these cards as being even close to game-breaking or game-ruining. They all have legitimate answers outside of counterspells. While "run more answers" is never an answer in itself, that these can be hated out a number of different ways mitigates some of their potential impact. If someone does get them off and wins with them, kudos to them. The format is at its best when big, splashy plays are possible and most of these cards (maybe with the exception of Omniscience combined with Enter the Infinite) fit the bill pretty good without being oppressive.
None of these cards represent anything bad about the format. I generally consider infinite combos and Mass LD to be the worst to play against (though others may disagree) and these cards don't do anything like that. They aren't even on my radar as cards to fear or hate. Again, I could offer the caveat that Omniscience paired with Enter the Infinite can be that, but I personally don't see the cards being played to bother worrying about them.
Regarding your actual question: No, Wizards is not slowly killing Commander with the printing of cards like these. Commander is still going strong. It would take a lot to print a truly gamebreaking card that would actually spell the demise of Commander.
If you have problems with cards like this then you need to work on your deck building. That's about all there is to it.
And as for if I'm impressed if someone actually wins with those cards? Yeah, I kind of am, actually. Moreso I'm impressed when in a multiplayer pod so many people build for solitaire without answers to other people's plays and such a lack of removal or ways to deal with these cards. Grave yard hate, permanent or enchantment spot removal. Players have basically the entire card pool available to them to build from and 99 cards to find a way to be prepared to take out a few permanent types or have mass removal, graveyard hate, and so on. If they can't answer these cards, that's on that player's shoulders.
Cyclonic Rift is, in itself, a gamebreaker (when overloaded). And the other colors do, in fact, have counterspells. Yes, there are cards that seem really OP, but there are very few that have NO answer for them, and of those, they aren't really that much of a gamebreaker in multiplayer. One-sided boardwipes like Rift aren't effective, usually, unless you've allowed that player to build a big enough army to take out multiple opponents in one swing. Rise of the Dark Realms and Living Death aren't usually effective enough to win on the same turn they're played without help from a haste enabler. As for Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, etc...well, sometimes ya just have let a jank card give a jank win. Next time you see that player pull that deck out, get your counterspells ready.
Is anyone actually impressed to see these cards win a game? Too me it always feels like "oh we were having a fun game and then he cast X and all previous play is now pretty much irrelevant"
It's too bad not enough people play graveyard hate and/or spot removal because those cards you listed seem relatively answerable by such. Haven't you mentioned on the forums many times that those types of cards (i.e. Spot removal) shouldn't be played?
Those cards are swingy but catching the mana cost of them, they better be.
Insurrection is a pretty cool card, don't see why anyone should complain about losing to that one.
Cards with big effects, even if that effect is a well used Grave Pact are what turn Commander from a 4 player gridlock of "I guess everyone has creatures so I'll pass" to an interesting format with options and fun plays. *shrug* Just my opinion. But if these cards really harsh your vibe and this isn't just a troll thread, I'd say maybe this isn't your format, or you need to find a group to play with that plays the way you like.
These are late game stalemate breakers that can be contextually bad (outside of crazies like Omniscience)
They are very powerful, but getting cards like these out quickly can carry significant opportunity costs. Other decks that are fast and proactive can put one under a decent amount of pressure to keep up.
I've never had problems with most of them even when they were good in the situation.
Without some haymakers, the format can easily devolve into a game of "Let's spend 20 turns doing literally nothing as we have Mutually Assured Destruction going on, whoever attacks first loses" or "Well we're all just durdling, we never really get a gamewin out." I have had games like that and they become a boring hell.
None of those games are a surefire gamewin. They all require further setup or backup to win, so no, I don't have a problem with any of them except in the design of some (Omniscience especially seems like it was made "just to give EDH players something that seems like fun") but seriously, if you can stick a 10 mana enchantment and have fuel available in your hand, perhaps you deserve to win.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
If anything, printing pushed linear legendary creatures seems more of a danger (think Ayli, Omnath, and Gitrog in Standard sets and almost everything printed in a Commander precon). Having game-ending plays is how you, uh, end the game.
Without some haymakers, the format can easily devolve into a game of "Let's spend 20 turns doing literally nothing as we have Mutually Assured Destruction going on, whoever attacks first loses" or "Well we're all just durdling, we never really get a gamewin out." I have had games like that and they become a boring hell.
None of those games are a surefire gamewin. They all require further setup or backup to win, so no, I don't have a problem with any of them except in the design of some (Omniscience especially seems like it was made "just to give EDH players something that seems like fun") but seriously, if you can stick a 10 mana enchantment and have fuel available in your hand, perhaps you deserve to win.
I much prefer my games to go for 20 turns of people gradually developing an edge rather than something like insurrection ending the game because 2 full turns went around with no boardwipe.
And omniscience's mana cost is kind of irrelevant. Hitting 10 mana in commander is pretty easy, and then it makes all your protection for it free, including your draw spells to get more protection. Of course, that's assuming you don't just end the game on the spot by casting your whole hand.
Without some haymakers, the format can easily devolve into a game of "Let's spend 20 turns doing literally nothing as we have Mutually Assured Destruction going on, whoever attacks first loses" or "Well we're all just durdling, we never really get a gamewin out." I have had games like that and they become a boring hell.
None of those games are a surefire gamewin. They all require further setup or backup to win, so no, I don't have a problem with any of them except in the design of some (Omniscience especially seems like it was made "just to give EDH players something that seems like fun") but seriously, if you can stick a 10 mana enchantment and have fuel available in your hand, perhaps you deserve to win.
I much prefer my games to go for 20 turns of people gradually developing an edge rather than something like insurrection ending the game because 2 full turns went around with no boardwipe.
And omniscience's mana cost is kind of irrelevant. Hitting 10 mana in commander is pretty easy, and then it makes all your protection for it free, including your draw spells to get more protection. Of course, that's assuming you don't just end the game on the spot by casting your whole hand.
Without some haymakers, the format can easily devolve into a game of "Let's spend 20 turns doing literally nothing as we have Mutually Assured Destruction going on, whoever attacks first loses" or "Well we're all just durdling, we never really get a gamewin out." I have had games like that and they become a boring hell.
None of those games are a surefire gamewin. They all require further setup or backup to win, so no, I don't have a problem with any of them except in the design of some (Omniscience especially seems like it was made "just to give EDH players something that seems like fun") but seriously, if you can stick a 10 mana enchantment and have fuel available in your hand, perhaps you deserve to win.
I much prefer my games to go for 20 turns of people gradually developing an edge rather than something like insurrection ending the game because 2 full turns went around with no boardwipe.
And omniscience's mana cost is kind of irrelevant. Hitting 10 mana in commander is pretty easy, and then it makes all your protection for it free, including your draw spells to get more protection. Of course, that's assuming you don't just end the game on the spot by casting your whole hand.
Until you get to the point where it becomes the same repetition of turns because everyone has ran out of resources, and any advantage is immediately negated by a boardwipe, a well-aimed spot removal or something else. Haymakers cause the table to scramble. There's a difference between grinding out a win (Something my Jori En, for example, is very proficient at - but it at least has a feeling of inevitability at one point) and grinding to a standstill which will likely never get resolved.
Insurrection only ends the game if there is more power on the board than your opponents have a combined life total. Omniscience only ends the game if you can chain up with drawspells - by the time you reach 10 mana, odds are your hand is either emptied or you're in such a strong position any 10 mana spell would likely win you the game.
Heck, I dare bet that in most of the decently powered metas, you'll even rarely see most of those cards you mentioned. Rise of the Dark Realms is the only one of those I see semi-regularly, and that's because it's a backup wincon in my Olivia deck, which is a Dragonstorm build. On that note, do you think Dragonstorm should be kicked out as well?
None, I repeat, NONE of those cards end the game on their own. Omiscience and Enter the Infinite are the only ones who combine to instantly end the game on the spot - and that requires you to hold on to Enter the Infinite, get Omniscience, and do this often enough without your playgroup telling you your deck is simply boring and they'd like to request a change of pace.
Seriously, your topics all tend to end the same way; you vs the rest. What are you expecting? The entire world to adapt to your specific playstyle? If those cards win so much at your LGS, why not talk to the people there? And if they win online, where do you find those low-powered games, cause I want to get in on that.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Completely disagree. These are all sorceries. They allow the table to deal with them before you can win. Insurrection might kill one player, but usually there are many wrath effects before you get 8 mana. Insurrection is also thwarted by Homeward path, which goes into every deck.
Cyclonic rift is the only card I truly find backbreaking. It is an instant. You play it at the end of your opponent's turn, and win on you turn. It is frustrating. You do not get a chance to deal with the situation.
Without some haymakers, the format can easily devolve into a game of "Let's spend 20 turns doing literally nothing as we have Mutually Assured Destruction going on, whoever attacks first loses" or "Well we're all just durdling, we never really get a gamewin out." I have had games like that and they become a boring hell.
None of those games are a surefire gamewin. They all require further setup or backup to win, so no, I don't have a problem with any of them except in the design of some (Omniscience especially seems like it was made "just to give EDH players something that seems like fun") but seriously, if you can stick a 10 mana enchantment and have fuel available in your hand, perhaps you deserve to win.
I much prefer my games to go for 20 turns of people gradually developing an edge rather than something like insurrection ending the game because 2 full turns went around with no boardwipe.
And omniscience's mana cost is kind of irrelevant. Hitting 10 mana in commander is pretty easy, and then it makes all your protection for it free, including your draw spells to get more protection. Of course, that's assuming you don't just end the game on the spot by casting your whole hand.
Until you get to the point where it becomes the same repetition of turns because everyone has ran out of resources, and any advantage is immediately negated by a boardwipe, a well-aimed spot removal or something else. Haymakers cause the table to scramble. There's a difference between grinding out a win (Something my Jori En, for example, is very proficient at - but it at least has a feeling of inevitability at one point) and grinding to a standstill which will likely never get resolved.
Insurrection only ends the game if there is more power on the board than your opponents have a combined life total. Omniscience only ends the game if you can chain up with drawspells - by the time you reach 10 mana, odds are your hand is either emptied or you're in such a strong position any 10 mana spell would likely win you the game.
Heck, I dare bet that in most of the decently powered metas, you'll even rarely see most of those cards you mentioned. Rise of the Dark Realms is the only one of those I see semi-regularly, and that's because it's a backup wincon in my Olivia deck, which is a Dragonstorm build. On that note, do you think Dragonstorm should be kicked out as well?
None, I repeat, NONE of those cards end the game on their own. Omiscience and Enter the Infinite are the only ones who combine to instantly end the game on the spot - and that requires you to hold on to Enter the Infinite, get Omniscience, and do this often enough without your playgroup telling you your deck is simply boring and they'd like to request a change of pace.
Seriously, your topics all tend to end the same way; you vs the rest. What are you expecting? The entire world to adapt to your specific playstyle? If those cards win so much at your LGS, why not talk to the people there? And if they win online, where do you find those low-powered games, cause I want to get in on that.
These are my observations after playing edhfor a while now.
EDH getting worse and worse.
Competitive commander is solitaire, and casual commander is 10 turns of "irrelevant" plays followed by some haymaker ending the game almost instantly. Sometimes its one card, sometimes it's synergy between multiple cards, but it's always some stupid explosive play that can take a table from full to 0.
There is no deck power level of commander I can enjoy anymore, because everyone thinks is super ok for a 10 mana spell to be game ending, despite the fact that you can easily reach that by the 5th turn. The idea of a grindy game almost doesn't exist anymore because of how many different game enders seem to be socially acceptable for a casual game of commander.
And all I get as responses is "run more removal" as if they fill their deck with 30 spot removal cards.
It's only game ending if you let it. It only comes out on the 5th turn if you let it.
Not to sound like a d***, even though I have evidence to back up I truely am a d***, this isn't a commander problem, this is more like a you(and others of this mindset)problem. There are a plethora of ways to deal with the Sorceries you listed, it's 100% on you if you let them steal your games.
I have to ask, after reading this thread, and your other about Avenger of Zendikar, what is it that you actually do in your games?
In my opinion, more options than 'Tooth and Nail, y'all lose!' the better the format is. I'm fortunate to have several gameshops with decent playgroups nearby - so I have my choice of games a few days a week, as do other players.
A side effect of this is also allowing players to discern who they enjoy playing against - and players that are antisocial or play with styles that many dislike run out of opponents.
What I've found that helps even more is adding variance into play - I've got the entire set of MTG Vanguard and Planechase (With 15 custom planes) that are geared to make a 4-6 player game more fun for all participants.
Personally, I find that I avoid playing any cards over 6CMC unless there is an extraordinarily compelling reason for it.
However, the ones I DO run, you'd likely hate - like Great Aurora and Dimensional Breach
It's only game ending if you let it. It only comes out on the 5th turn if you let it.
Not to sound like a d***, even though I have evidence to back up I truely am a d***, this isn't a commander problem, this is more like a you(and others of this mindset)problem. There are a plethora of ways to deal with the Sorceries you listed, it's 100% on you if you let them steal your games.
I have to ask, after reading this thread, and your other about Avenger of Zendikar, what is it that you actually do in your games?
So not drawing the answers you put in your deck is now "letting something happen"?
You are showing a fundamental misunderstanding in how card games work.
Just because you put a card in your deck, does not mean you will have it when you need it.
I have several lists posted in the forums if you go searching, although a lot of them have gotten revised without me posting the updates.
If your meta is filled with games that are 10 turns of irrelevant plays followed by a game-ender fairly often, then I agree that sucks.
However, I think you will find, at least from responses on this site, that your experience is definitely not the norm. What I mean is that while the plays you are seeing may occur outside your group, the idea that they are bad is not shared by the majority (at least the majority that frequent this site). Of the cards you listed, only Omniscience has the potential to end the game on turn 5 (if someone has truly ramped into 10 mana by then) and it still relies on them actually having a hand after spending the first 4 turns ramping. The others are not that strong on turn 5. Rise of the Dark Realms and Living Death will get a bunch of small creatures that people used for ramping. Insurrection with get small-ish creatures on the battlefield. Rite of replication will have very few game breaking targets that early on.
Mizzix's Mastery is at its best in a Storm build as they are just filling their graveyard with spells being cast. I assume someone is not running Storm in your meta though as it is mostly "casual" so what is that player getting into their graveyard early on that is winning the game on the spot?
Regarding the "run more answers" response you often get: Yes, this is not an answer to anything degenerate. Prophet could be answered "easily" but was centralizing. Same with Sylvan Primordial and Primeval Titan, but these cards were banned despite the plethora of answers. However, the responses you have gotten in this thread are centered more around the fact that players should already be running answers for these cards because they impact more than just these cards. Gravehate should be in most decks due to the number of graveyard interactions every color can have and that stops a couple of the cards you listed. Instant speed removal should be run due to the number of bombs players run. It is obviously possible that 3 players do not have an immediate answer to 1 player's Insurrection. If that Insurrection wins the game, the boardstate must have been somewhat out of control already to have enough creatures take out 3 other players. If everyone is already at low enough life for a relatively minor number of creatures to win "out of nowhere" then the previous turns in the game were obviously relevant. Rite of Replication falls into this too as it relies on the current boardstate.
I understand that your experience with EDH is not all what you want it to be. However, the responses you have given seem to indicate that your meta is one that I would enjoy playing in. Based on other responses, it seems that others would as well (or, at least, wouldn't have a problem with it).
On a side note, I know you also complained about Avenger of Zendikar in another thread so it seems like you want your meta to be "hyper casual" where these big splashy plays don't occur. I think it was asked in the Avenger thread, but what spells do you find acceptable at these mana costs? Blightsteel Colossus is just 2 mana more than Rise of the Dark Realms and if a deck is getting to 10 mana on turn 5, 11 mana on turn 6 is possible. Is that better or worse than the cards you listed? Do you want players to just play cards like Akroma, Angel of Wrath as their bombs? I mean, at some point if you are going to play a format that hinges on ramping, at least to a degree, there has to be a legitimate payoff for that investment, right?
Cards are costed for their impact and the ones you listed are costed more than fairly for what they do.
Competitive commander is solitaire, and casual commander is 10 turns of "irrelevant" plays followed by some haymaker ending the game almost instantly. Sometimes its one card, sometimes it's synergy between multiple cards, but it's always some stupid explosive play that can take a table from full to 0.
If the 10 turns of plays created game winning synergy, then they were not irrelevant. Nearly all the cards you mention require certain game events in order to be effective, whether a massive creature set on the battlefield for Insurrection, or a massive creature set in graveyards for Rise of the Dark Realms, or a graveyard full of instants and sorceries for Mizzix's Mastery. These cards supervene on previous plays, so your whole argument fails a priori.
There is no deck power level of commander I can enjoy anymore, because everyone thinks is super ok for a 10 mana spell to be game ending, despite the fact that you can easily reach that by the 5th turn. The idea of a grindy game almost doesn't exist anymore because of how many different game enders seem to be socially acceptable for a casual game of commander.
And all I get as responses is "run more removal" as if they fill their deck with 30 spot removal cards.
Let's see how many answers I have in my oldest deck ... Oh, it's got 19 instant-speed answers, and games with it tend to be grindy and fun.
Games become grindy because people run answers. If you want a grindy game, then build a deck that makes the game grindy.
That's not what I said. Based on the information you have provided, I have come to the conclusion that you only play lands, then pass the turn. Considering you "have no way" to answer any of those cards, or any of the other cards you've listed in other threads. Except there are ways, we've told you ways, and here we still are.
I really don't think I'm the one with the "fundamental misunderstanding" here.
This is true, so you run redundancy. Magic Fundamentals 101. What I also find interesting, is that you seem to be the only one who "doesn't have the cards when you need them", but somehow your opponents have these with enough power to end the game when they need them, and they also have those enablers you kept piling on in the AZ thread.
omniscience
enter the infinite
rise of the dark realms
mizzix's mastery
rite of replication
Some older ones:
living death
insurrection
Cards that have effects that are just too swingy.
Is anyone actually impressed to see these cards win a game? Too me it always feels like "oh we were having a fun game and then he cast X and all previous play is now pretty much irrelevant"
Cyclonic rift even stops 90% of them...
Only one color gets access to countermagic.
Sudden spoiling?
misc other instants... red has copy spells which would work on the "rise of the dark realms"
silence?
Lots of things to do.
not to mention graveyard hate...(which every deck should have at least 1-2 cards for this... if possible.)
Rite of Replication has been seen a couple of times. The most common target is Solemn Simulacrum but I have seen it target Grave Titan to pretty good effect. Neither were even close to game breaking plays.
I have only seen Rise of the Dark Realms once and I don't even remember what came of it. It was such a non-event that it doesn't even register as being a big deal. I am pretty sure there was at least some instant speed grave hate involved. They may have won but I honestly don't remember.
I don't view any of these cards as being even close to game-breaking or game-ruining. They all have legitimate answers outside of counterspells. While "run more answers" is never an answer in itself, that these can be hated out a number of different ways mitigates some of their potential impact. If someone does get them off and wins with them, kudos to them. The format is at its best when big, splashy plays are possible and most of these cards (maybe with the exception of Omniscience combined with Enter the Infinite) fit the bill pretty good without being oppressive.
None of these cards represent anything bad about the format. I generally consider infinite combos and Mass LD to be the worst to play against (though others may disagree) and these cards don't do anything like that. They aren't even on my radar as cards to fear or hate. Again, I could offer the caveat that Omniscience paired with Enter the Infinite can be that, but I personally don't see the cards being played to bother worrying about them.
Regarding your actual question: No, Wizards is not slowly killing Commander with the printing of cards like these. Commander is still going strong. It would take a lot to print a truly gamebreaking card that would actually spell the demise of Commander.
And as for if I'm impressed if someone actually wins with those cards? Yeah, I kind of am, actually. Moreso I'm impressed when in a multiplayer pod so many people build for solitaire without answers to other people's plays and such a lack of removal or ways to deal with these cards. Grave yard hate, permanent or enchantment spot removal. Players have basically the entire card pool available to them to build from and 99 cards to find a way to be prepared to take out a few permanent types or have mass removal, graveyard hate, and so on. If they can't answer these cards, that's on that player's shoulders.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Cyclonic Rift is, in itself, a gamebreaker (when overloaded). And the other colors do, in fact, have counterspells. Yes, there are cards that seem really OP, but there are very few that have NO answer for them, and of those, they aren't really that much of a gamebreaker in multiplayer. One-sided boardwipes like Rift aren't effective, usually, unless you've allowed that player to build a big enough army to take out multiple opponents in one swing. Rise of the Dark Realms and Living Death aren't usually effective enough to win on the same turn they're played without help from a haste enabler. As for Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, etc...well, sometimes ya just have let a jank card give a jank win. Next time you see that player pull that deck out, get your counterspells ready.
It's too bad not enough people play graveyard hate and/or spot removal because those cards you listed seem relatively answerable by such. Haven't you mentioned on the forums many times that those types of cards (i.e. Spot removal) shouldn't be played?
Those cards are swingy but catching the mana cost of them, they better be.
Insurrection is a pretty cool card, don't see why anyone should complain about losing to that one.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
They are very powerful, but getting cards like these out quickly can carry significant opportunity costs. Other decks that are fast and proactive can put one under a decent amount of pressure to keep up.
I've never had problems with most of them even when they were good in the situation.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
None of those games are a surefire gamewin. They all require further setup or backup to win, so no, I don't have a problem with any of them except in the design of some (Omniscience especially seems like it was made "just to give EDH players something that seems like fun") but seriously, if you can stick a 10 mana enchantment and have fuel available in your hand, perhaps you deserve to win.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
As another said, games have to end, and I would rather see one end via a haymaker instead of a combo.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
I much prefer my games to go for 20 turns of people gradually developing an edge rather than something like insurrection ending the game because 2 full turns went around with no boardwipe.
And omniscience's mana cost is kind of irrelevant. Hitting 10 mana in commander is pretty easy, and then it makes all your protection for it free, including your draw spells to get more protection. Of course, that's assuming you don't just end the game on the spot by casting your whole hand.
A fog can ruin Insurrection easilly
Until you get to the point where it becomes the same repetition of turns because everyone has ran out of resources, and any advantage is immediately negated by a boardwipe, a well-aimed spot removal or something else. Haymakers cause the table to scramble. There's a difference between grinding out a win (Something my Jori En, for example, is very proficient at - but it at least has a feeling of inevitability at one point) and grinding to a standstill which will likely never get resolved.
Insurrection only ends the game if there is more power on the board than your opponents have a combined life total. Omniscience only ends the game if you can chain up with drawspells - by the time you reach 10 mana, odds are your hand is either emptied or you're in such a strong position any 10 mana spell would likely win you the game.
Heck, I dare bet that in most of the decently powered metas, you'll even rarely see most of those cards you mentioned. Rise of the Dark Realms is the only one of those I see semi-regularly, and that's because it's a backup wincon in my Olivia deck, which is a Dragonstorm build. On that note, do you think Dragonstorm should be kicked out as well?
None, I repeat, NONE of those cards end the game on their own. Omiscience and Enter the Infinite are the only ones who combine to instantly end the game on the spot - and that requires you to hold on to Enter the Infinite, get Omniscience, and do this often enough without your playgroup telling you your deck is simply boring and they'd like to request a change of pace.
Seriously, your topics all tend to end the same way; you vs the rest. What are you expecting? The entire world to adapt to your specific playstyle? If those cards win so much at your LGS, why not talk to the people there? And if they win online, where do you find those low-powered games, cause I want to get in on that.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Cyclonic rift is the only card I truly find backbreaking. It is an instant. You play it at the end of your opponent's turn, and win on you turn. It is frustrating. You do not get a chance to deal with the situation.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
These are my observations after playing edhfor a while now.
EDH getting worse and worse.
Competitive commander is solitaire, and casual commander is 10 turns of "irrelevant" plays followed by some haymaker ending the game almost instantly. Sometimes its one card, sometimes it's synergy between multiple cards, but it's always some stupid explosive play that can take a table from full to 0.
There is no deck power level of commander I can enjoy anymore, because everyone thinks is super ok for a 10 mana spell to be game ending, despite the fact that you can easily reach that by the 5th turn. The idea of a grindy game almost doesn't exist anymore because of how many different game enders seem to be socially acceptable for a casual game of commander.
And all I get as responses is "run more removal" as if they fill their deck with 30 spot removal cards.
Not to sound like a d***, even though I have evidence to back up I truely am a d***, this isn't a commander problem, this is more like a you(and others of this mindset)problem. There are a plethora of ways to deal with the Sorceries you listed, it's 100% on you if you let them steal your games.
I have to ask, after reading this thread, and your other about Avenger of Zendikar, what is it that you actually do in your games?
Guttural Response, Pyroblast, Mana Tithe, Dash Hopes...
A side effect of this is also allowing players to discern who they enjoy playing against - and players that are antisocial or play with styles that many dislike run out of opponents.
What I've found that helps even more is adding variance into play - I've got the entire set of MTG Vanguard and Planechase (With 15 custom planes) that are geared to make a 4-6 player game more fun for all participants.
Personally, I find that I avoid playing any cards over 6CMC unless there is an extraordinarily compelling reason for it.
However, the ones I DO run, you'd likely hate - like Great Aurora and Dimensional Breach
So not drawing the answers you put in your deck is now "letting something happen"?
You are showing a fundamental misunderstanding in how card games work.
Just because you put a card in your deck, does not mean you will have it when you need it.
I have several lists posted in the forums if you go searching, although a lot of them have gotten revised without me posting the updates.
However, I think you will find, at least from responses on this site, that your experience is definitely not the norm. What I mean is that while the plays you are seeing may occur outside your group, the idea that they are bad is not shared by the majority (at least the majority that frequent this site). Of the cards you listed, only Omniscience has the potential to end the game on turn 5 (if someone has truly ramped into 10 mana by then) and it still relies on them actually having a hand after spending the first 4 turns ramping. The others are not that strong on turn 5. Rise of the Dark Realms and Living Death will get a bunch of small creatures that people used for ramping. Insurrection with get small-ish creatures on the battlefield. Rite of replication will have very few game breaking targets that early on.
Mizzix's Mastery is at its best in a Storm build as they are just filling their graveyard with spells being cast. I assume someone is not running Storm in your meta though as it is mostly "casual" so what is that player getting into their graveyard early on that is winning the game on the spot?
Regarding the "run more answers" response you often get: Yes, this is not an answer to anything degenerate. Prophet could be answered "easily" but was centralizing. Same with Sylvan Primordial and Primeval Titan, but these cards were banned despite the plethora of answers. However, the responses you have gotten in this thread are centered more around the fact that players should already be running answers for these cards because they impact more than just these cards. Gravehate should be in most decks due to the number of graveyard interactions every color can have and that stops a couple of the cards you listed. Instant speed removal should be run due to the number of bombs players run. It is obviously possible that 3 players do not have an immediate answer to 1 player's Insurrection. If that Insurrection wins the game, the boardstate must have been somewhat out of control already to have enough creatures take out 3 other players. If everyone is already at low enough life for a relatively minor number of creatures to win "out of nowhere" then the previous turns in the game were obviously relevant. Rite of Replication falls into this too as it relies on the current boardstate.
I understand that your experience with EDH is not all what you want it to be. However, the responses you have given seem to indicate that your meta is one that I would enjoy playing in. Based on other responses, it seems that others would as well (or, at least, wouldn't have a problem with it).
On a side note, I know you also complained about Avenger of Zendikar in another thread so it seems like you want your meta to be "hyper casual" where these big splashy plays don't occur. I think it was asked in the Avenger thread, but what spells do you find acceptable at these mana costs? Blightsteel Colossus is just 2 mana more than Rise of the Dark Realms and if a deck is getting to 10 mana on turn 5, 11 mana on turn 6 is possible. Is that better or worse than the cards you listed? Do you want players to just play cards like Akroma, Angel of Wrath as their bombs? I mean, at some point if you are going to play a format that hinges on ramping, at least to a degree, there has to be a legitimate payoff for that investment, right?
Cards are costed for their impact and the ones you listed are costed more than fairly for what they do.
If the 10 turns of plays created game winning synergy, then they were not irrelevant. Nearly all the cards you mention require certain game events in order to be effective, whether a massive creature set on the battlefield for Insurrection, or a massive creature set in graveyards for Rise of the Dark Realms, or a graveyard full of instants and sorceries for Mizzix's Mastery. These cards supervene on previous plays, so your whole argument fails a priori.
Let's see how many answers I have in my oldest deck ... Oh, it's got 19 instant-speed answers, and games with it tend to be grindy and fun.
Games become grindy because people run answers. If you want a grindy game, then build a deck that makes the game grindy.
I really don't think I'm the one with the "fundamental misunderstanding" here.
This is true, so you run redundancy. Magic Fundamentals 101. What I also find interesting, is that you seem to be the only one who "doesn't have the cards when you need them", but somehow your opponents have these with enough power to end the game when they need them, and they also have those enablers you kept piling on in the AZ thread.