I think the deck can most certainly be streamlined a bit.
In addition to the suggestions mentioned, you need more ramp or more lands to account for your mana curve. You don't have a lot at 6 or 7, which is fine, but when you are stuck on a bunch of 5s, being able to do multiple things a turn at 9 mana late enough in the game is important.
Also, you absolutely need to play graveyard hate. This is not a question. A Nihil Spellbomb is my first option for most decks. Doesn't hurt your graveyard and you get your card back out of it so it isn't useless even when it is dead.
Probably the best route to go in future pick-up games is to talk to the other players and say, "Hey, I want to have a fun, interactive game in which everyone gets a chance to do things and nobody plays super-heavy control or "I win" combos. How about we all play decks like that?" That sort of discussion is part of the EDH social contract, and a part I think too many people ignore.
Thanks for the recommendation. I have been thinking how I could communicate the expectation that I actually want to play my deck, while at the same time, wanting to see everyone else play their decks as well. I will keep working on what I should actually say at the start of a game. I think I also want to include something that speaks to everyone being involved in the game, and no "solitaire" play experiences.
Sounds like the Commander in question was Maralen of the Mornsong. One never knows, but I suspect you might have found the experience of seeing that deck play out to be less fun than you expect, because Maralen players are, generally speaking, never up to anything good.
Yeah, thats the commander another player was using. Maybe one of us could have tutored for something to at least make the game playable?
I think the deck can most certainly be streamlined a bit.
In addition to the suggestions mentioned, you need more ramp or more lands to account for your mana curve. You don't have a lot at 6 or 7, which is fine, but when you are stuck on a bunch of 5s, being able to do multiple things a turn at 9 mana late enough in the game is important.
Also, you absolutely need to play graveyard hate. This is not a question. A Nihil Spellbomb is my first option for most decks. Doesn't hurt your graveyard and you get your card back out of it so it isn't useless even when it is dead.
Thanks for the recommendation. I wanted to see how the deck plays, then make some adjustments. I think I need a board wipe and graveyard hate that doesnt impact my graveyard.
To me, playing out my deck means doing what my deck is designed to do. I expect to get my commander on the field, and then actually cast spells. For my Sidisi deck, I would expect to get her on the battlefield turn 4 or 5, put cards in my graveyard, get a few 2/2 zombies to block, a see few of my cool foil creatures on the battlefield. I just want a chance to see the mechanics of my deck in action.
That is not a realistic or reasonable expectation even in a "casual" format. Part of the lure of Magic in general is the ability to "counter" opponents' strategies. And I don't (necessarily) mean counter spells. In the end, even in casual play, the goal is to out play your opponents and preventing them from accomplishing their goals is a very good way of accomplishing this goal. Every player should be ready to react to these situations. They should be able to alter their gameplan and react to what is happening in the game state. Or they should understand that a situation like the one you presented will happen from time to time.
This belief that some EDH players have that decks shouldn't interact with each other and that every game should be a (long) race to see which player drops his stupid bombs first is counter to one of the most key ideals of the game of Magic.
It looks like his deck obeyed all the rules you had and the game lasted over an hour. Sounds fair to me.
The fact that you play once a month (and how much your deck cost) is irrelevant. There's no point in repeating that over and over.
Oh bull. He specifically said a "casual" experience. Casual is a broad term, but locking players out of the game through hand destruction and taking ten minute turns is not casual. A game lasting an hour isn't fun if people don't actually get to do stuff for that hour.
Oh bull. He specifically said a "casual" experience. Casual is a broad term, but locking players out of the game through hand destruction and taking ten minute turns is not casual. A game lasting an hour isn't fun if people don't actually get to do stuff for that hour.
He said they 'pretty much agreed' to a casual game and it sounds like the guy did just that, played a slow, casual deck with no infinite combos and no counterspells. If your opponents aren't casting spells and your deck takes an hour to kill people, that deck sounds pretty casual to me. If nobody was having fun after a while, they should have quit and started a new game. If I was in the same circumstances, I'd have congratulated him on making a good play. Complaining about mindslicer is just sour grapes.
While I was hoping to play my newly constructed deck and evaluate its performance to make a few tweaks, I don't think I want to make significant changes based on that experience.
You don't want to make changes based on that experience? That is exactly the kind of experience that should make you want to make changes. When my decks get crushed, I don't make threads complaining about it, I look for weaknesses in my deck and my playstyle and learn from it. Losing is great in a way - those are the games where you learn the most.
Sidisi is a BUG general, which is perhaps the single strongest color combination in edh, and yet you have very few of the cards that make it strong. You admit your deck gets rolling around turn 12, which is extremely slow, so why don't you add green ramp cards and/or more artifact mana. You mentioned you draw/go, so why not add some of the great blue and black sorceries/instants that give you card advantage. And black tutors are nice if you can afford them.
In addition to the deck suggestions you've gotten so far, you might also take a look at the various sidisi threads on here.
Sidisi also happens to be the most common combo general to place top8 in duel commander right now. Here's a link the top sidisi decks: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=500&meta=121&f=EDH
Obviously duel commander has some different rules than regular edh, but those are still a nice guide.
While I think games are normally more enjoyable when players have decks at similar power level I have to ask, why didn't you concede? And how did that game last so long when your post states the crazy advantage of the Meren player?
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Sounds like Meren got a nut draw. I think it would have been correct to concede after realizing how far ahead the Meren player had become. If you were playing for prizes, this kind of route to victory is expected if it becomes available. If it was purely casual, I think conceding would have been correct so you could lightly shuffle up and start over.
Its entirely possible that the deck in question runs just the 1 of mindslicer as the only actual way of pulling off this specific game. I remember one game on cockatrice with my riku of two reflections deck where i felt particularly terrible
The room was titles casual no infinite/mld. I proceeded to drop an acidic slime on like turn 3 followed shortly after with a duplicated kicked rite of replication destroying every land in play. Obviously i won this game, but it took a painfully long time to do so. This is not how games turn out with that deck ever, but in that particular game my deck probably seemed extremely oppressive and unfun
I know how frustrating it is when people aren't on the same page when a game begins/gets into full swing, but did you happen to talk to the player after the game? I've always felt that with random groups discussion after a game is just as important as discussion before a game. It helps build social bonds and communicates feedback that might be helpful in the event that you all paired up in a pod at some point in the future.
While I think games are normally more enjoyable when players have decks at similar power level I have to ask, why didn't you concede? And how did that game last so long when your post states the crazy advantage of the Meren player?
That's a fair question.
I didn't concede because I thought I might draw into another land and could get my commander in play. Also, I didn't think he would recur the creature to make us discard our hands again, however, I was wrong, lol.
He passed the turn multiple times when he could have attacked with multiple creatures on the battlefield. None of us had creatures to block with, or spells in hand to play combat tricks. One turn I asked him if he was going to attack me (assuming he could put me out of my misery so I could respectfully leave and do other things with my time) and he said I wasn't a threat. I asked him which player was, because we were all in the same situation. I think he had about 6 creatures in play before he started attacking.
I know how frustrating it is when people aren't on the same page when a game begins/gets into full swing, but did you happen to talk to the player after the game? I've always felt that with random groups discussion after a game is just as important as discussion before a game. It helps build social bonds and communicates feedback that might be helpful in the event that you all paired up in a pod at some point in the future.
I didn't really talk to him after the game, other than congratulating him on my way out.
Although I have played magic for 2 years now, I play so infrequently, I am still hesitant to determine what I should be OK with and what I shouldn't be OK with. That's pretty much the reason for my post.
While I think games are normally more enjoyable when players have decks at similar power level I have to ask, why didn't you concede? And how did that game last so long when your post states the crazy advantage of the Meren player?
That's a fair question.
I didn't concede because I thought I might draw into another land and could get my commander in play. Also, I didn't think he would recur the creature to make us discard our hands again, however, I was wrong, lol.
He passed the turn multiple times when he could have attacked with multiple creatures on the battlefield. None of us had creatures to block with, or spells in hand to play combat tricks. One turn I asked him if he was going to attack me (assuming he could put me out of my misery so I could respectfully leave and do other things with my time) and he said I wasn't a threat. I asked him which player was, because we were all in the same situation. I think he had about 6 creatures in play before he started attacking.
Ah I hate it when people have a huge advantage or some kind of lock on the board and don't attack when they can. While I wouldn't concede in most situations I believe I can come back from if a person is clearly ahead and making clearly sub-optimal plays (e.g. not attacking when so far ahead) then I would consider conceding (especially if I have been in a game 65 minutes and haven't casted a spell or if the player who is ahead and making suboptimal plays is known for making suboptimal plays when ahead to prolong the game and their experience of being ahead).
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It happens, sometimes a well timed wrath of god by an opponent followed by some land flooding on your part can ruin the game. Even casual games can quite frequently be a "bad experience."
Also, that deck list is way too slow. Almost no one or two drops. You still want to curve out your decks, even in edh. Skullclamp, pyrite spellbomb, relic of progenitus, all make fine one drops.
It happens, sometimes a well timed wrath of god by an opponent followed by some land flooding on your part can ruin the game. Even casual games can quite frequently be a "bad experience."
In my experience casual games often are a worse experience than playing with and against slightly more tuned decks. Casual decks (as in decks that doesn't plan to do anything until turn 10+) are so vulnerable and are so susceptible to just sit and look at the board doing nothing. Either that or everyone just floods the board with big dumb beaters staring at eachother, that isn't fun for any player.
Somewhat more tuned decks have a lot more ways to get out of sticky situations making the matches far more interactive
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As soon as he made everyone discard on t4, if I had no real way to stay in the game, I would have scooped, and if others wanted to stay in and grind it out, found a new group to play with.
It's fine to play casual, but u have to be able to protect urself and interact with what ppl r doing, u never know what ppl r going to bring even to "casual" games. Now u know some weaknesses to ur deck that needs to be covered.
While I was hoping to play my newly constructed deck and evaluate its performance to make a few tweaks, I don't think I want to make significant changes based on that experience. I did that early on with my Oloro deck when I played against a mill deck. I added like 8 anti mill cards, then never played against a mill deck again, and now only run one anti mill card that also gains me life.
I was looking over ur deck a little, ur running loam but none of the cycle lands which creates a powerful engine that synergies with ur commander.
Lands like rupture spire and temple of the false god I find to be terrible, even on a budget. Rupture spire u lose tempo because it can prevent u from being able to cast a spell as it costs mana to play and it comes in tapped. Idk how many times temple has gotten stuck in my hand as my 4th land, preventing me from doing anything.
I find bounce lands to be dangerous, land destruction punishes u so badly for playing them.
God hand and best draw possible. But yea that game was over turn 2. I guess when you pull a win like that out of your ass you may as well play it and then switch decks... granted I switched to purphy and then won turn 4.
It happens, sometimes a well timed wrath of god by an opponent followed by some land flooding on your part can ruin the game. Even casual games can quite frequently be a "bad experience."
In my experience casual games often are a worse experience than playing with and against slightly more tuned decks. Casual decks (as in decks that doesn't plan to do anything until turn 10+) are so vulnerable and are so susceptible to just sit and look at the board doing nothing. Either that or everyone just floods the board with big dumb beaters staring at eachother, that isn't fun for any player.
Somewhat more tuned decks have a lot more ways to get out of sticky situations making the matches far more interactive
I have to agree with this. In the groups I most enjoy playing with, we don't go for competitively powered decks, but they are tuned and fairly powerful. There are cards I've removed to tone down a few decks because there are hardly any situations where I could use those cards in a casual manner.
And that's where we get into the difference between a casually built deck that's fragile and inconsistent versus playing a tuned deck in a casual manner. For example, discarding a creature card to Fauna Shaman and beginning to search for a creature and choosing the Sin Prodder I hadn't tried in play yet instead of the Dragonlord Atarka or something that would be more crushing. Or not playing that Magus of the Moon when your friend is already struggling to keep up using a General Tazri deck with janky Vivid lands and guildgates.
In addition to the suggestions mentioned, you need more ramp or more lands to account for your mana curve. You don't have a lot at 6 or 7, which is fine, but when you are stuck on a bunch of 5s, being able to do multiple things a turn at 9 mana late enough in the game is important.
Also, you absolutely need to play graveyard hate. This is not a question. A Nihil Spellbomb is my first option for most decks. Doesn't hurt your graveyard and you get your card back out of it so it isn't useless even when it is dead.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Thanks for the recommendation. I have been thinking how I could communicate the expectation that I actually want to play my deck, while at the same time, wanting to see everyone else play their decks as well. I will keep working on what I should actually say at the start of a game. I think I also want to include something that speaks to everyone being involved in the game, and no "solitaire" play experiences.
Yeah, thats the commander another player was using. Maybe one of us could have tutored for something to at least make the game playable?
Thanks for the recommendation. I wanted to see how the deck plays, then make some adjustments. I think I need a board wipe and graveyard hate that doesnt impact my graveyard.
That is not a realistic or reasonable expectation even in a "casual" format. Part of the lure of Magic in general is the ability to "counter" opponents' strategies. And I don't (necessarily) mean counter spells. In the end, even in casual play, the goal is to out play your opponents and preventing them from accomplishing their goals is a very good way of accomplishing this goal. Every player should be ready to react to these situations. They should be able to alter their gameplan and react to what is happening in the game state. Or they should understand that a situation like the one you presented will happen from time to time.
This belief that some EDH players have that decks shouldn't interact with each other and that every game should be a (long) race to see which player drops his stupid bombs first is counter to one of the most key ideals of the game of Magic.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Oh bull. He specifically said a "casual" experience. Casual is a broad term, but locking players out of the game through hand destruction and taking ten minute turns is not casual. A game lasting an hour isn't fun if people don't actually get to do stuff for that hour.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
You don't want to make changes based on that experience? That is exactly the kind of experience that should make you want to make changes. When my decks get crushed, I don't make threads complaining about it, I look for weaknesses in my deck and my playstyle and learn from it. Losing is great in a way - those are the games where you learn the most.
Sidisi is a BUG general, which is perhaps the single strongest color combination in edh, and yet you have very few of the cards that make it strong. You admit your deck gets rolling around turn 12, which is extremely slow, so why don't you add green ramp cards and/or more artifact mana. You mentioned you draw/go, so why not add some of the great blue and black sorceries/instants that give you card advantage. And black tutors are nice if you can afford them.
In addition to the deck suggestions you've gotten so far, you might also take a look at the various sidisi threads on here.
Sidisi also happens to be the most common combo general to place top8 in duel commander right now. Here's a link the top sidisi decks: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=500&meta=121&f=EDH
Obviously duel commander has some different rules than regular edh, but those are still a nice guide.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
UBRGrixis Kiki Control
BGUSultai Shadow
GWRBushwhacker Zoo
EDH:
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
GWU Roon of the Hidden Realm
The room was titles casual no infinite/mld. I proceeded to drop an acidic slime on like turn 3 followed shortly after with a duplicated kicked rite of replication destroying every land in play. Obviously i won this game, but it took a painfully long time to do so. This is not how games turn out with that deck ever, but in that particular game my deck probably seemed extremely oppressive and unfun
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls - Knowledge is Power U [Primer]
R Heartless Hidetsugu - The Art of Ending Games R
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - The Cluster HungersBG
That's a fair question.
I didn't concede because I thought I might draw into another land and could get my commander in play. Also, I didn't think he would recur the creature to make us discard our hands again, however, I was wrong, lol.
He passed the turn multiple times when he could have attacked with multiple creatures on the battlefield. None of us had creatures to block with, or spells in hand to play combat tricks. One turn I asked him if he was going to attack me (assuming he could put me out of my misery so I could respectfully leave and do other things with my time) and he said I wasn't a threat. I asked him which player was, because we were all in the same situation. I think he had about 6 creatures in play before he started attacking.
I didn't really talk to him after the game, other than congratulating him on my way out.
Although I have played magic for 2 years now, I play so infrequently, I am still hesitant to determine what I should be OK with and what I shouldn't be OK with. That's pretty much the reason for my post.
Ah I hate it when people have a huge advantage or some kind of lock on the board and don't attack when they can. While I wouldn't concede in most situations I believe I can come back from if a person is clearly ahead and making clearly sub-optimal plays (e.g. not attacking when so far ahead) then I would consider conceding (especially if I have been in a game 65 minutes and haven't casted a spell or if the player who is ahead and making suboptimal plays is known for making suboptimal plays when ahead to prolong the game and their experience of being ahead).
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
Also, that deck list is way too slow. Almost no one or two drops. You still want to curve out your decks, even in edh. Skullclamp, pyrite spellbomb, relic of progenitus, all make fine one drops.
In my experience casual games often are a worse experience than playing with and against slightly more tuned decks. Casual decks (as in decks that doesn't plan to do anything until turn 10+) are so vulnerable and are so susceptible to just sit and look at the board doing nothing. Either that or everyone just floods the board with big dumb beaters staring at eachother, that isn't fun for any player.
Somewhat more tuned decks have a lot more ways to get out of sticky situations making the matches far more interactive
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It's fine to play casual, but u have to be able to protect urself and interact with what ppl r doing, u never know what ppl r going to bring even to "casual" games. Now u know some weaknesses to ur deck that needs to be covered.
I was looking over ur deck a little, ur running loam but none of the cycle lands which creates a powerful engine that synergies with ur commander.
Lands like rupture spire and temple of the false god I find to be terrible, even on a budget. Rupture spire u lose tempo because it can prevent u from being able to cast a spell as it costs mana to play and it comes in tapped. Idk how many times temple has gotten stuck in my hand as my 4th land, preventing me from doing anything.
I find bounce lands to be dangerous, land destruction punishes u so badly for playing them.
-Swamp, Lotus petal, Elvish spirit Guide, sol ring, phyrexian altar.
-Island, Diregraf captain, Gravecrawler
God hand and best draw possible. But yea that game was over turn 2. I guess when you pull a win like that out of your ass you may as well play it and then switch decks... granted I switched to purphy and then won turn 4.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
And that's where we get into the difference between a casually built deck that's fragile and inconsistent versus playing a tuned deck in a casual manner. For example, discarding a creature card to Fauna Shaman and beginning to search for a creature and choosing the Sin Prodder I hadn't tried in play yet instead of the Dragonlord Atarka or something that would be more crushing. Or not playing that Magus of the Moon when your friend is already struggling to keep up using a General Tazri deck with janky Vivid lands and guildgates.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko