On a whim, I started building a Ryusei, the Falling Star Dragon Tribal EDH, and I could use some suggestions. The list I have is already pretty tight already without much room to tweak it, but there are a couple areas I want to improve it in. While the deck isn't built to be competitive but rather, fun/casual (and by fun I mean thematic as well as packing some surprises that will be game-changers in my meta), I do want to make sure it's decent enough to hold it's own in a game.
The high mana curve isn't something I can do much about lowering, so what I've got so far has a bunch of mana rocks and other sources of big mana. I decided not to run Dragonlord's Servant or Dragonspeaker Shaman despite having 20 dragons in the list because they're too vulnerable to both my burn spells and everyone else's removal and not very versatile - instead choosing Cloud Key and the double-edged sword, Helm of Awakening since they survive creature wipes and they're way more versatile. It's also not designed to take advantage of red's anti-artifact strengths (though it has a few ways to deal with them just in case), which is a metagame choice since artifacts aren't very common right now. Enchantments are also a problem, but I don't think there's much I can run without spending more mana that I'd like to think about to deal with that card type, I will have to leave it up to other people at the table unfortunately. Tokens, Instants, and Planewalkers however are abundant in my metagame, so the card choices are focused on that with stuff like Æther Flash, Volcanic Fallout, Thunder Dragon, Fated Conflagration, and Defense Grid.
What I am concerned about are its access to card draw and recursion/recovery.
I've got a few strong sources of card draw like the wheels I'm running, but I'd be happier if I could replace for example, Mind's Eye with something less costly and more reliable. Howling Mine and related cards however I think would be way, way too dangerous. Mind's Eye also antisynergizes with Price of Glory in this deck, but I definitely want to keep price of glory.
As for the recursion - it's pretty much nonexistent. The deck needs some effective way of recovering through wipes, and mono red doesn't have much outside of artifacts. I'll definitely keep buried ruin and mimic vat in here, but I'd like to have something better than Colfenor's Urn if there is anything. Colfenor's Urn doesn't seem like it would be reliable (though for now I think I'll try it since most of my creatures fit the requirements for it), and Cauldron of Souls is costly and easily worked around. I don't like the idea of running cards that are so situational as those very much, because I might not even get them when I actually need them to protect my board.I'd rather run something that gets my creatures back when I need them back even if they've been in the graveyard for a couple turns. Should I run Elixir of Immortality perhaps? The deck would probably benefit by running a couple more 1-2 cost cards to make it slightly more mana efficient.
I like aether flash, but it seems really bad in here. In particular, you mentioned having issues with tokens and planeswalkers, so magma quake seems a stronger option there. It hits nothing you don't already want dead (anger, in your list) and deals with multiple resolved threats at once.
There is a relatively and uniquely red version of recursion available in the form of feldon of the third path. He really wants a pair of boots to protect him, but he can go absolutely nuts with a dragon or two in the graveyard. I have a strong dragon tribal subtheme in my ben ben "mountains matter" deck and he's over-performed there.
Card draw in red that isn't wheels can be interesting. Mind's eye is a good card in a control deck with lots of mana up, but I don't see that happening here often. You're already running knollspine dragon. Any consideration given to dragon mage? I know it helps your opponents too, but it's going to hurt when he connects that first time. I have become increasingly fond of dreamstone hedron (meta dependent...if you don't have a ton of early mana it isn't great), hedron archives, and loreseeker's stone.
Also, I have to second the flameshadow conjuring. Most of the time if you have a huge amount of mana, you have at least one additional, and this little enchantment makes folks scared quick.
Some really great ideas here I hadn't even considered, about half of these cards I haven't even heard of. (And my friends probably haven't heard of some these either, which will make them good surprises) Thanks! I'll definitely look into swapping in some of these.
You might need some board wipes too. I always like having at least two or three since they can get you out of a sticky situation where someone's just flooding the board with junk from their non-creature engines, or maybe there's a super-protected unblockable Voltron commander threatening to one-shot you next turn.
My personal favorite for mono-red is Warp World. It potentially deals with everything including problem lands, but in a more fair way than something like obliterate effects. If I get super unlucky and get junk while an opponent gets the ideal windfall to win the game, well I consider that a hilariously random way to lose so it's fine in my book.
The issue with Ryusei is that he is never going to trigger if you put him in the command zone upon death. If you are just after dragon tribal then Rorix Bladewing is actually a very strong contender for a quick aggro approach. She runs like a creature-light Urabrask build, focusing on combat with Rorix (temur battlerage/seize the day/savage beating/etc).
I did have a Ryusei brew before the commander tuck-rule was maniupliated which had a few tricks like triassic egg and haunted fengraf to pull him from the graveyard, but now you can put him from yard into the command zone with Scrabbling Claws/Relic of Progenitus sort of stuff.
You may also want some good sac' spells to really make use of Ryusei's board wipe. Fatal Frenzy and Fling are really strong here.
The issue with Ryusei is that he is never going to trigger if you put him in the command zone upon death. If you are just after dragon tribal then Rorix Bladewing is actually a very strong contender for a quick aggro approach. She runs like a creature-light Urabrask build, focusing on combat with Rorix (temur battlerage/seize the day/savage beating/etc).
I did have a Ryusei brew before the commander tuck-rule was maniupliated which had a few tricks like triassic egg and haunted fengraf to pull him from the graveyard, but now you can put him from yard into the command zone with Scrabbling Claws/Relic of Progenitus sort of stuff.
You may also want some good sac' spells to really make use of Ryusei's board wipe. Fatal Frenzy and Fling are really strong here.
I actually had no idea that the rule change effected Ryusei like that. That's kind of a big problem, and I might just change commanders because of it. (Didn't even know Rorix Bladewing existed, actually) In terms of playing the deck though, I didn't really want to build around Ryusei other than for the dragon tribal theme. I like commanders that basically function dually as either tools or strategy centerpeices and don't necessitate being built around or even played, where every card in the deck has multiple different possible uses and many directions could be taken since linearity bores me.
Been considering splashing one or two colors since I keep looking at this and thinking 'Mono red is just so limited and shoring up its problems seems awkwardly mana intensive in a way only a green deck would naturally tolerate...'
Rorix Bladewing is an interesting option, I might also try splashing any combination of colors exempting green too, mostly because all my good green cards are now in an Omnath, Locus of Mana deck I threw together on a whim yesterday after working on this deck.
Splash blue and I'm looking at Niv-Mizzet... tried that once, it was boring. The card draw and versatile removal options would help a ton, though. Splash white and I'm looking at a non-dragon deck, plus boros isn't my style. Splash black and I might be looking at Bladewing the Risen or one of the two Kolaghans... Not sure what I want to do, but splashing a color while staying with dragon tribal might give me better options. There's always the 3 color dragons, too...
I used to run keiga, the tide star and would exile her from the yard to get her back in the command zone. It may be a bit harder without trinket, fabricate, dizzy spell and whatnot, but it should still be doable. (Only deck I ever played back from the brink, can you even handle how cute that interaction is?!)
You can also target yourself with cranial archive then put Ryusei into the command zone instead of your library. Or if you don't want to pay 4, tormod's crypt yourself, but now we're getting into real jank territory.
I'm always a fan of land destruction in my red decks. Most people will find it hard to recover from a cycled Decree of Annihilation. MLD is a great emergency button to have, just don't over use it. You'll end up with a huge target on your head, even when other people are playing much stronger decks.
There can be something done about your mana curve.
First, either remove Urabrask or make him your commander as it at least has more utility than Ryusei as the commander. One of the most common mistakes in a dragon deck is making your mana curve even more unwieldy by adding in other fatties that don't at least have synergy with your dragon support. Urabrask is easily replaced with hammer of purphoros, Lightning Greaves, Swiftfoot Boots, or Fervor.
You have too many dragons. Your hand is often going to find itself full of uncastables for a good portion of the game. A healthy number is 16-20. Some cuts I can easily see made are Warmonger Hellkite, Archwing Dragon, and Furyborn Hellkite. They're not very good.
Now, card advantage is going to be tricky because a deck like that wants to put their field on the table to have a dominant boardstate while playing a color that can't normally profit from its card draw. Mind's Eye is the best option in multiplayer. Use rocks if you have price out. Serum Tank (Since you're red artifacts are going to be your friend anyway) Armillary Sphere is technically card advantage Kher Keep+SkullClamp Tower of Fortunes
are some examples. A shame they're largely very mana costly when you also want a lot of mana to drop fat.
Recursion is really tough as colorless options tend to be very mana pricey.
Haven of the Spirit Dragon is useful mainly because the activated ability puts a dead dragon back in your hand in a pinch. Feldon of the Third Path is I can't believe red can reanimate Reito Lantern restocks your deck or removes targets from another player's graveyard in the event they attempt to recur.
Not sure what I want to do, but splashing a color while staying with dragon tribal might give me better options. There's always the 3 color dragons, too...
I really like Rorix Bladewing as suggested, since he's purely red - which is as much dragon as it get's.
You said you want a deck that can function without the commander and may get a lot stronger with him. I instantly thought of two Dragon Legends that fit the tribal theme as well: Atarka, World Render - Seen him a few times and if he isn't dealt with games end. Plus, a splash of green for ramp suits your needs very well. Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury - Not as brutal as Atarka, but really interesting! Dash gives you the option to play him for his original CMC everytime and B brings great good removal, reanimation and card draw.
There can be something done about your mana curve.
First, either remove Urabrask or make him your commander as it at least has more utility than Ryusei as the commander. One of the most common mistakes in a dragon deck is making your mana curve even more unwieldy by adding in other fatties that don't at least have synergy with your dragon support. Urabrask is easily replaced with hammer of purphoros, Lightning Greaves, Swiftfoot Boots, or Fervor.
You have too many dragons. Your hand is often going to find itself full of uncastables for a good portion of the game. A healthy number is 16-20. Some cuts I can easily see made are Warmonger Hellkite, Archwing Dragon, and Furyborn Hellkite. They're not very good.
Try to get somewhat of a curve going with your mana rocks. You might want to go for at least 10 rocks with 2 or less cmc.
That huge list of suggestions is incredibly helpful, the cut suggestions as well make a lot of sense. I was really worried about the curve and wasn't comfortable with it anyway considering how I intuitively know the deck would play with so many high cmc cards, thus the cost reductions and cards like Mana Geyser and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. But I kind of figured that still wouldn't be enough to make it work smoothly.
Right now I'm debating between Rorix/Urabrask/Kolaghan/Bladewing (black would efficiently give me card draw, tutoring, and recursion...) to replace Ryusei, and along with various other suggestions from this thread, I've got a couple dozen more cards to put on order (at least half of these I already have) that I may use in this deck and others.
That huge list of suggestions is incredibly helpful, the cut suggestions as well make a lot of sense. I was really worried about the curve and wasn't comfortable with it anyway considering how I intuitively know the deck would play with so many high cmc cards, thus the cost reductions and cards like Mana Geyser and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. But I kind of figured that still wouldn't be enough to make it work smoothly.
Right now I'm debating between Rorix/Urabrask/Kolaghan/Bladewing (black would efficiently give me card draw, tutoring, and recursion...) to replace Ryusei, and along with various other suggestions from this thread, I've got a couple dozen more cards to put on order (at least half of these I already have) that I may use in this deck and others.
I personally think Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury is the best choice if you're dropping Ryusei completely - you now don't need to worry about your ground-based creatures perishing and can play more token-generators, which are great for two reasons, first Kolaghan's trigger is board-wide and secondly it helps fuel the dragons with devour like Preyseizer Dragon much better. You don't have to worry too much about losing your theme as the deck isn't token-focused, it's just using it as a support, even if the victory was from a field of tokens swinging, it would most likely be because of Kolaghan's trigger which is dragon-based after all.
Just curious though, why did you even consider Ryusei helming a Dragon Tribal deck (besides that it was done on a whim). Dragons being immune to Ryusei's trigger isn't exactly a compelling reason to do, especially when still have to build around making Ryusei trigger and still be available for re-use later on. When I built my Ryusei deck, I didn't really bother with any dragon themes at all, it was focused around utilizing Ryusei's damage trigger as much as possible via cards like Repercussion and the damage-doubling effects, while protecting my board and myself through the use of protection cards. Even then in more grindy games, the deck ends up grinding to survive attrition like a Daretti deck until an opening for the set-up for the actual game plan shows itself.
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The list so far: Ryusei Dragon Tribal
The high mana curve isn't something I can do much about lowering, so what I've got so far has a bunch of mana rocks and other sources of big mana. I decided not to run Dragonlord's Servant or Dragonspeaker Shaman despite having 20 dragons in the list because they're too vulnerable to both my burn spells and everyone else's removal and not very versatile - instead choosing Cloud Key and the double-edged sword, Helm of Awakening since they survive creature wipes and they're way more versatile. It's also not designed to take advantage of red's anti-artifact strengths (though it has a few ways to deal with them just in case), which is a metagame choice since artifacts aren't very common right now. Enchantments are also a problem, but I don't think there's much I can run without spending more mana that I'd like to think about to deal with that card type, I will have to leave it up to other people at the table unfortunately. Tokens, Instants, and Planewalkers however are abundant in my metagame, so the card choices are focused on that with stuff like Æther Flash, Volcanic Fallout, Thunder Dragon, Fated Conflagration, and Defense Grid.
What I am concerned about are its access to card draw and recursion/recovery.
I've got a few strong sources of card draw like the wheels I'm running, but I'd be happier if I could replace for example, Mind's Eye with something less costly and more reliable. Howling Mine and related cards however I think would be way, way too dangerous. Mind's Eye also antisynergizes with Price of Glory in this deck, but I definitely want to keep price of glory.
As for the recursion - it's pretty much nonexistent. The deck needs some effective way of recovering through wipes, and mono red doesn't have much outside of artifacts. I'll definitely keep buried ruin and mimic vat in here, but I'd like to have something better than Colfenor's Urn if there is anything. Colfenor's Urn doesn't seem like it would be reliable (though for now I think I'll try it since most of my creatures fit the requirements for it), and Cauldron of Souls is costly and easily worked around. I don't like the idea of running cards that are so situational as those very much, because I might not even get them when I actually need them to protect my board.I'd rather run something that gets my creatures back when I need them back even if they've been in the graveyard for a couple turns. Should I run Elixir of Immortality perhaps? The deck would probably benefit by running a couple more 1-2 cost cards to make it slightly more mana efficient.
Any advice is appreciated.
1. Warping Wail - Just counter that board wipe
2. Soulblast, Massive Raid, Vicious Shadows, Fling, Grab the Reins - If you can't counter it, make'em pay!
3. Fault Line, Inferno - If you can't do anything about it, at least make everyone miserable!
Warping Wail and Soulblast look promising. Something out of line: Flameshadow Conjuring could give you more bang for the buck out of your mana.
Outpost Siege
Chandra Ablaze
Chandra, Flamecaller
Outpost Siege particularly is about as good as it gets for mono red.
There is a relatively and uniquely red version of recursion available in the form of feldon of the third path. He really wants a pair of boots to protect him, but he can go absolutely nuts with a dragon or two in the graveyard. I have a strong dragon tribal subtheme in my ben ben "mountains matter" deck and he's over-performed there.
Card draw in red that isn't wheels can be interesting. Mind's eye is a good card in a control deck with lots of mana up, but I don't see that happening here often. You're already running knollspine dragon. Any consideration given to dragon mage? I know it helps your opponents too, but it's going to hurt when he connects that first time. I have become increasingly fond of dreamstone hedron (meta dependent...if you don't have a ton of early mana it isn't great), hedron archives, and loreseeker's stone.
Also, I have to second the flameshadow conjuring. Most of the time if you have a huge amount of mana, you have at least one additional, and this little enchantment makes folks scared quick.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Door of Destinies may not be worth it.
Ryusei and Repercussion is funny! Thank you for it. More sacrifice methods?
Cheers!
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The staples are:
Oblivion Stone
Perilous Vault
My personal favorite for mono-red is Warp World. It potentially deals with everything including problem lands, but in a more fair way than something like obliterate effects. If I get super unlucky and get junk while an opponent gets the ideal windfall to win the game, well I consider that a hilariously random way to lose so it's fine in my book.
I did have a Ryusei brew before the commander tuck-rule was maniupliated which had a few tricks like triassic egg and haunted fengraf to pull him from the graveyard, but now you can put him from yard into the command zone with Scrabbling Claws/Relic of Progenitus sort of stuff.
You may also want some good sac' spells to really make use of Ryusei's board wipe. Fatal Frenzy and Fling are really strong here.
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I prefer to use Player removal.
Player removal is best removal.
I have zirilan as my dragon tribal commander.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I actually had no idea that the rule change effected Ryusei like that. That's kind of a big problem, and I might just change commanders because of it. (Didn't even know Rorix Bladewing existed, actually) In terms of playing the deck though, I didn't really want to build around Ryusei other than for the dragon tribal theme. I like commanders that basically function dually as either tools or strategy centerpeices and don't necessitate being built around or even played, where every card in the deck has multiple different possible uses and many directions could be taken since linearity bores me.
Been considering splashing one or two colors since I keep looking at this and thinking 'Mono red is just so limited and shoring up its problems seems awkwardly mana intensive in a way only a green deck would naturally tolerate...'
Rorix Bladewing is an interesting option, I might also try splashing any combination of colors exempting green too, mostly because all my good green cards are now in an Omnath, Locus of Mana deck I threw together on a whim yesterday after working on this deck.
Splash blue and I'm looking at Niv-Mizzet... tried that once, it was boring. The card draw and versatile removal options would help a ton, though. Splash white and I'm looking at a non-dragon deck, plus boros isn't my style. Splash black and I might be looking at Bladewing the Risen or one of the two Kolaghans... Not sure what I want to do, but splashing a color while staying with dragon tribal might give me better options. There's always the 3 color dragons, too...
Relic of progenitus, phyrexian furnace, and scrabbling claws are cheap, reusable, can replace themselves, and it's good to run graveyard hate anyway.
If you want to be super cute, you could add salvaging station and baubles like urza's bauble and mishra's bauble, together with the furnace/claws, for a card draw engine
You can also target yourself with cranial archive then put Ryusei into the command zone instead of your library. Or if you don't want to pay 4, tormod's crypt yourself, but now we're getting into real jank territory.
I guess steamclaw and feldon's cane also exist but those seem kind of... bad.
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First, either remove Urabrask or make him your commander as it at least has more utility than Ryusei as the commander. One of the most common mistakes in a dragon deck is making your mana curve even more unwieldy by adding in other fatties that don't at least have synergy with your dragon support. Urabrask is easily replaced with hammer of purphoros, Lightning Greaves, Swiftfoot Boots, or Fervor.
You have too many dragons. Your hand is often going to find itself full of uncastables for a good portion of the game. A healthy number is 16-20. Some cuts I can easily see made are Warmonger Hellkite, Archwing Dragon, and Furyborn Hellkite. They're not very good.
Try to get somewhat of a curve going with your mana rocks. You might want to go for at least 10 rocks with 2 or less cmc.
Sol Ring
Mind stone
Thought Vessel
Ruby Medallion
Everflowing Chalice
Fire Diamond
Coldsteel Heart
Fellwar Stone
Mana Vault
Corrupted Grafstone
is an example cheap rock package.
Then about 4-5 3 cmc rocks
Darksteel Ingot
Wayfarer's Bauble (I'm adding the activation cost because ideally you want to activate it before it gets destroyed)
Worn Powerstone
Commander's Sphere
Urza's Incubator (Hey dragonspeaker shaman without the being a frail little creature part!)
for example. And then the rest you can fit are the good expensive mana permanents like Gauntlet of Might and Solemn Simulacrum.
Now, card advantage is going to be tricky because a deck like that wants to put their field on the table to have a dominant boardstate while playing a color that can't normally profit from its card draw.
Mind's Eye is the best option in multiplayer. Use rocks if you have price out.
Serum Tank (Since you're red artifacts are going to be your friend anyway)
Armillary Sphere is technically card advantage
Kher Keep+SkullClamp
Tower of Fortunes
are some examples. A shame they're largely very mana costly when you also want a lot of mana to drop fat.
Recursion is really tough as colorless options tend to be very mana pricey.
Haven of the Spirit Dragon is useful mainly because the activated ability puts a dead dragon back in your hand in a pinch.
Feldon of the Third Path is I can't believe red can reanimate
Reito Lantern restocks your deck or removes targets from another player's graveyard in the event they attempt to recur.
You said you want a deck that can function without the commander and may get a lot stronger with him. I instantly thought of two Dragon Legends that fit the tribal theme as well:
Atarka, World Render - Seen him a few times and if he isn't dealt with games end. Plus, a splash of green for ramp suits your needs very well.
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury - Not as brutal as Atarka, but really interesting! Dash gives you the option to play him for his original CMC everytime and B brings great good removal, reanimation and card draw.
I like your deck already, so a simple switch to Rorix Bladewing would work. But i feel intrigued by Kolagan, the Storm's Fury a lot the more i reread him.
That huge list of suggestions is incredibly helpful, the cut suggestions as well make a lot of sense. I was really worried about the curve and wasn't comfortable with it anyway considering how I intuitively know the deck would play with so many high cmc cards, thus the cost reductions and cards like Mana Geyser and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. But I kind of figured that still wouldn't be enough to make it work smoothly.
Right now I'm debating between Rorix/Urabrask/Kolaghan/Bladewing (black would efficiently give me card draw, tutoring, and recursion...) to replace Ryusei, and along with various other suggestions from this thread, I've got a couple dozen more cards to put on order (at least half of these I already have) that I may use in this deck and others.
I personally think Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury is the best choice if you're dropping Ryusei completely - you now don't need to worry about your ground-based creatures perishing and can play more token-generators, which are great for two reasons, first Kolaghan's trigger is board-wide and secondly it helps fuel the dragons with devour like Preyseizer Dragon much better. You don't have to worry too much about losing your theme as the deck isn't token-focused, it's just using it as a support, even if the victory was from a field of tokens swinging, it would most likely be because of Kolaghan's trigger which is dragon-based after all.
Just curious though, why did you even consider Ryusei helming a Dragon Tribal deck (besides that it was done on a whim). Dragons being immune to Ryusei's trigger isn't exactly a compelling reason to do, especially when still have to build around making Ryusei trigger and still be available for re-use later on. When I built my Ryusei deck, I didn't really bother with any dragon themes at all, it was focused around utilizing Ryusei's damage trigger as much as possible via cards like Repercussion and the damage-doubling effects, while protecting my board and myself through the use of protection cards. Even then in more grindy games, the deck ends up grinding to survive attrition like a Daretti deck until an opening for the set-up for the actual game plan shows itself.