There are no cards I don't play for those reasons and I don't expect it from opponents either, I like solving the puzzle that board states become in EDH and taking piece away that can play into that is not as fun.
Also I dislike winning when I know people aren't putting everything forward so I don't do that myself.
Not sure that puzzle argument makes sense. If you really like puzzles wouldn't it make sense to play a wider variety of cards, generate a wider variety of situations? I think by not playing the top 5-10 powerhouses you'd find yourself doing that.
You assume that you can't do both, that is very short sighted when it comes to Commander.
I tend to agree with the side of this that says more powerful cards leads to less diversity, not more.
But it's understood that this isn't what Survival does. What's understood is that Survival is a one-card combo. In fact, you have to be deliberately working against it in order to fish 2 cards with it that aren't immensely more powerful together than they are on their own. That's just the nature of tutoring multiple times. And it doesn't matter what the 2-card combo selected actually is, since the outcome is the same. So, you have either an immediate conclusion to the game barring disruption, or the gimpy feeling that someone could have ended the game, but chose to derp, durdle, and pull punches instead.
Not a wide spectrum of variety outside of those two outcomes, effectively.
Same thing with Yag Win, Necropotence, T&N, Ad Naus, Doomsday, etc. You either build your deck for it and win, or you've turned the game from playing with people into toying with them instead.
So, you have either an immediate conclusion to the game barring disruption, or the gimpy feeling that someone could have ended the game, but chose to derp, durdle, and pull punches instead.
Not all decks can end a game by simply having Survival of the Fittest out for one turn. Some people choose to "build casually and play competitively" choosing not to include a bunch of cheap 2 card combos to tutor up.
I agree with that and I also don't like toying with people and don't like it when I can tell opponents or other players are toying with people. That still doesn't preclude diversity of card choices.
Necropotence can just be used to fill up to 7 every turn which is amazing but not the Oloro deck drawing 30 and sculpting their hand.
T&N is a card that has a million uses that just happens to also have like 15-20 that just end the game.
The other 3 are more cards you really have to build into to win with.
Blightsteel Colossus, because the poison rule in EDH isn't 15 (its 10). Tutoring a blightsteel and making him hasty to kill someone out of left field (keyword indestructible, nice doom blade.) just really feels dirty...so I removed him from my Daretti deck.
Blightsteel Colossus, because the poison rule in EDH isn't 15 (its 10). Tutoring a blightsteel and making him hasty to kill someone out of left field (keyword indestructible, nice doom blade.) just really feels dirty...so I removed him from my Daretti deck.
My playgroup decided to change the limit on infect to 20. The way we see it, poison damage outside EDH is basically the same as commander damage inside EDH. So we made the infect kill 20.
That doesn't make any sense because while it is true that 10 is not that much, if you look at the number of cards with infect, and then the number that will actually see play in EDH you come out with like 5 maybe 6 (Proliferate doesn't really could because they need the poison first). If it is bumped any higher than 10 it makes that strategy damn near impossible to win with.
I agree that especially against certain decks a haste / shroud Blightsteel is a death sentence but there are still ways in every color to stop it.
There are no cards I don't play for those reasons and I don't expect it from opponents either, I like solving the puzzle that board states become in EDH and taking piece away that can play into that is not as fun.
Also I dislike winning when I know people aren't putting everything forward so I don't do that myself.
Not sure that puzzle argument makes sense. If you really like puzzles wouldn't it make sense to play a wider variety of cards, generate a wider variety of situations? I think by not playing the top 5-10 powerhouses you'd find yourself doing that.
You assume that you can't do both, that is very short sighted when it comes to Commander.
In theory sure, in practice not so much. In practice the presence/availability of certain top options will lead to them being heavily used, pushing out a wider range of alternative cards (thinking of card power like a bell curve, if you chop of the top percent or whatever the next group down will inherently be more diverse).
Blightsteel Colossus, because the poison rule in EDH isn't 15 (its 10). Tutoring a blightsteel and making him hasty to kill someone out of left field (keyword indestructible, nice doom blade.) just really feels dirty...so I removed him from my Daretti deck.
I dunno man, its mono-red... a little dirtiness is needed to hang with the power decks.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
So, you have either an immediate conclusion to the game barring disruption, or the gimpy feeling that someone could have ended the game, but chose to derp, durdle, and pull punches instead.
Not all decks can end a game by simply having Survival of the Fittest out for one turn. Some people choose to "build casually and play competitively" choosing not to include a bunch of cheap 2 card combos to tutor up.
That is not the same thing as pulling punches.
You could also just not play Survival. That would be building casually.
I mean, think about it in terms of the continuity of experience with you playing that deck. People like to engage themselves in the process of improvement. Now, you have Survival in your deck. You probably have a few general value cards, like Karmic Guide. It will not be long before you realize that including Reveillark is in an improvement to your deck. You can either counterman your continuity of improvement with that deck and leave stuff like this out, or you can put it in and deliberately pull punches in game.
Or, you can leave out the combo card. It's not as if everywhere else in Magic, literally, has recognized Survival as a degenerate piece of machinery incompatible with healthy, back and forth games. That's a running theme with this list. I mean, can someone insist that they can play Necropotence without making interaction with them outside of mana denial pointless? I don't think so.
I generally don't mind high-powered cards, but I dislike cards that warp the strategy I'm trying to play. luminarch ascension comes to mind - if I start with it, the deck stops doing the stuff I wanted it to do, and instead my optimal plays become to just make a bunch of angels. On the other hand, if I'm making a white token deck, I'll happily run it since it fits into my strategy.
I don't like using Rite of Replication for two reasons:
It's hella annoying to try and figure out tokens for regular cards.
Its power level ranges from 'pretty good' (Eternal Witness) to 'I win' (Terastodon). I like to build decks where my cards make each other better, and raw-power stuff like Rite of ReplicationCyclonic Rift leave a bad taste in my mouth.
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A mirror, a shield, a promise, a great distance, and a kind word-- five ways to avoid harm.
I purposefully don't play caldera lands and glyph of destruction because of their power levels. I can kill my friends moondust changeling--his best beater--flying is too strong.
I try to make a even field for all of my opponents. I am not giving them lands, tokens, or life, but I do take a turn resolving wood elemental and gain 1 life. My life total can get out of reach fast and put a fattes down once a turn.
I have changed for the better lately, Worms tooth is so much better, but I may get a bit greedy and pony up for prism ring. I will be closing the gap soon and my friends are going to take my 5 color Karona life gain deck seriously. A real contender.
Mindslaver, and blue's permanent theft is, in general, absolutely no fun to play against or with. Blatant thievery/bribery is bad and see's play in my meta a fair bit, so many most of my decks run ways to deal with them. I believe in winning with my own strategies, not my opponents. It's a different story if my entire deck can't win UNLESS it's built on my opponents mishmash of strategies (I have such a deck built in grixis colors and its best win condition main that isn't a clone effect is solemn simulacrum). I also have two decks with blue in them and between them, 4 counters, all of which are attached to other effects.
I've made it a well known fact in my local playgroup that I would rather die than pick up a Survival of the Fittest. Never have I seen that card played in a fair manner. The closest to tame I think I've seen was a friend using it in a slightly modified Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck, and even then it's disgusting. You just ditch stuff with Survival and get it back EOT.
My LGS is also starting up a competitive EDH FNM, which I'm convinced is a terrible idea, and I picked up a Winter Orb so I can play elves if I ever feel like being filthy. I don't play Stax or anything close to it, so I would have no other usage for a Winter Orb than this one corner case.
I don't really dislike any card for power reasons, in fact I think EDH is one of the formats where this shouldn't be a major concern (to a point of course). I do however get salty over Tasigur (and a properly built deck surrounding it). It is a general that most of the time costs 1 and does everything you need it to do. It's easily able to stop fast decks without running out of gas (since people are inclined to help you recur answers) and is practically unbeatable in the late game.
I run Elesh Norn with Ghave. I think Sheoldred isn't that strong of a card really. I try to keep to the fungus/tree/elemental theme, so Avenger works mechanically and thematically. I also have a cult subtheme... But no lie, Elesh Norn, Archangel of Thune and a few others are there only for mechanical reasons. I try to limit my "generic good stuff", though I am debating putting Elspeth (Theros) due to her versatility. Of course, she doesn't fit the deck thematically nearly as well as my evil Garruk does.
i kinda see it like D&D. everyone approaches the game and has a little 'story' of sorts to tell, within a set guideline/rule. its the balance between what happens in the story and the power level in which everyone in the game is happy with that makes a good game good.
in that sense, i dont think i have any decks with cards that i feel are too powerful/too dirty, 'cuz the rest of the deck/table is in some sort of happy harmony with it. we dont really have much of a banlist as such. my b/g deck runs RN, and one guy in my group uses mox emerald. sure they're powerful, but our group doesn't end up trying to break the game, we're trying to tell cool stories/create interesting interactions.
i think its a bit tragic when i read about people whining on the internet about cards being too powerful and so on; sure hermit druid can be broken, but it doesn't really have to be.
that being said, i think the closest ive ever had to feeling bad for playing something overpowered was balance in combination with greater gargadon suspended.
Cyclonic Rift is just absurb. Sould be banned. I tried to avoid playing it but since my LGS has gotten more competitive i run it without much remorse now.
You could also just not play Survival. That would be building casually.
I've built casually with Survival. Not a big deal.
It will not be long before you realize that including Reveillark is in an improvement to your deck. You can either counterman your continuity of improvement with that deck and leave stuff like this out, or you can put it in and deliberately pull punches in game.
Not all people treat EDH as an arms race.
It's not as if everywhere else in Magic, literally, has recognized Survival as a degenerate piece of machinery incompatible with healthy, back and forth games.
Recognize it how you'd like, I've played it in many healthy back and forth games. It's a very powerful card, but only as powerful as the creatures/combos it can interact with, which was my point.
Well, what one calls an "arms race" another might call "continuity of experience as a player", "engaging in the process of improvement", etc. And I find it hard to believe that someone will invest $1000's of dollars in a game, play it for hours, then not be interested at all in improvment.
My entire Animar, Soul of Elements deck got axed due to power level. Yeah, it's fun, and it has a theme (all permanents + Primal Surge) but it's non-interactive as hell. A lot of the individual cards cropping up in this thread are in it : Prime Speaker Zegana, Palinchron, Craterhoof Behemoth, just a bunch of "I win" in it. In competetive Magic I love non-interactive decks, but for a format like Commander I prefer to make it more about the journey than the destination.
In my Ghave deck, I still run Seedborn Muse, Academy Rector, and the Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion combo but I cut Tooth and Nail as well as Defense of the Heart. I still use Demonic Tutor, Eladamri's Call, and the above mentioned Rector as tutors, but unlike Animar, this deck's gameplan can definitely be slowed and stopped by interaction. Mike + Trike never see the field at the same time unless the game is just dragging on, and both creatures fit the overall theme of the commander anyways, so I allowed them to stay (+1/+1 counters and tokens being the themes)
Tooth and Nail was just too often an instant win. The same with Craterhoof Behemoth. If I played more blue decks, I sure wouldn't include Cyclonic Rift in any of them, either, because it's pretty anti-climatic as far as who wins after that.
Well, what one calls an "arms race" another might call "continuity of experience as a player", "engaging in the process of improvement", etc. And I find it hard to believe that someone will invest $1000's of dollars in a game, play it for hours, then not be interested at all in improvment.
Jusstice, c'mon, man, you know better than this. You are a very competitive guy. Not everyone who plays this format plays it so competitively as you do. In fact, most don't. It's true. Really.
Built competitively, Survival is a very powerful card, and one that should probably be on the banned list if anyone ever gets around to making a competitive multiplayer EDH sub-format, but it's very possible to run it in a more casually-built deck and not have it be broken as hell.
My entire Animar, Soul of Elements deck got axed due to power level. Yeah, it's fun, and it has a theme (all permanents + Primal Surge) but it's non-interactive as hell. A lot of the individual cards cropping up in this thread are in it : Prime Speaker Zegana, Palinchron, Craterhoof Behemoth, just a bunch of "I win" in it. In competetive Magic I love non-interactive decks, but for a format like Commander I prefer to make it more about the journey than the destination.
Animar is a very easy general to break and make super-powerful without even trying hard. Indeed, if you are even a minimally competent deck builder, it's probably harder to build a non-broken Animar deck than it is to build a broken-as-heck one.
Well, what one calls an "arms race" another might call "continuity of experience as a player", "engaging in the process of improvement", etc. And I find it hard to believe that someone will invest $1000's of dollars in a game, play it for hours, then not be interested at all in improvment.
For me, "improvement" of a deck is tailoring it so it plays the way I'd like it to. I don't like my decks to be competitive as possible.
I'd like to think a vast majority of EDH players approach it this way, including the RC.
I tend to agree with the side of this that says more powerful cards leads to less diversity, not more.
Take Survival of the Fittest. If you look at it like, hey, I now have a tutor for any of the zany cards in my deck like Fatespinner and Arbiter of Knollridge, then sure, that would be more variety.
But it's understood that this isn't what Survival does. What's understood is that Survival is a one-card combo. In fact, you have to be deliberately working against it in order to fish 2 cards with it that aren't immensely more powerful together than they are on their own. That's just the nature of tutoring multiple times. And it doesn't matter what the 2-card combo selected actually is, since the outcome is the same. So, you have either an immediate conclusion to the game barring disruption, or the gimpy feeling that someone could have ended the game, but chose to derp, durdle, and pull punches instead.
Not a wide spectrum of variety outside of those two outcomes, effectively.
Same thing with Yag Win, Necropotence, T&N, Ad Naus, Doomsday, etc. You either build your deck for it and win, or you've turned the game from playing with people into toying with them instead.
Not all decks can end a game by simply having Survival of the Fittest out for one turn. Some people choose to "build casually and play competitively" choosing not to include a bunch of cheap 2 card combos to tutor up.
That is not the same thing as pulling punches.
Necropotence can just be used to fill up to 7 every turn which is amazing but not the Oloro deck drawing 30 and sculpting their hand.
T&N is a card that has a million uses that just happens to also have like 15-20 that just end the game.
The other 3 are more cards you really have to build into to win with.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
My playgroup decided to change the limit on infect to 20. The way we see it, poison damage outside EDH is basically the same as commander damage inside EDH. So we made the infect kill 20.
WUBRGReaper King - Superfriends
WUBRGChild of Alara - The Nauseating Aurora
WUBSharuum the Hegemon - Christmas In Prison
WUBZur the Enchanter - Ow My Face
WRJor Kadeen, the Prevailer - Snow Goats
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden - International Goblin All Purpose Recycling Facility Number 12
WGSaffi Eriksdotter - Saffi Combosdotter
UPatron of the Moon - The Age of Aquarius
BHorobi, Death's Wail - Bring Out Your Dead
GSachi, Daughter of Seshiro - Sneks
I agree that especially against certain decks a haste / shroud Blightsteel is a death sentence but there are still ways in every color to stop it.
In theory sure, in practice not so much. In practice the presence/availability of certain top options will lead to them being heavily used, pushing out a wider range of alternative cards (thinking of card power like a bell curve, if you chop of the top percent or whatever the next group down will inherently be more diverse).
I dunno man, its mono-red... a little dirtiness is needed to hang with the power decks.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
You could also just not play Survival. That would be building casually.
I mean, think about it in terms of the continuity of experience with you playing that deck. People like to engage themselves in the process of improvement. Now, you have Survival in your deck. You probably have a few general value cards, like Karmic Guide. It will not be long before you realize that including Reveillark is in an improvement to your deck. You can either counterman your continuity of improvement with that deck and leave stuff like this out, or you can put it in and deliberately pull punches in game.
Or, you can leave out the combo card. It's not as if everywhere else in Magic, literally, has recognized Survival as a degenerate piece of machinery incompatible with healthy, back and forth games. That's a running theme with this list. I mean, can someone insist that they can play Necropotence without making interaction with them outside of mana denial pointless? I don't think so.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It's hella annoying to try and figure out tokens for regular cards.
Its power level ranges from 'pretty good' (Eternal Witness) to 'I win' (Terastodon). I like to build decks where my cards make each other better, and raw-power stuff like Rite of Replication Cyclonic Rift leave a bad taste in my mouth.
I try to make a even field for all of my opponents. I am not giving them lands, tokens, or life, but I do take a turn resolving wood elemental and gain 1 life. My life total can get out of reach fast and put a fattes down once a turn.
I have changed for the better lately, Worms tooth is so much better, but I may get a bit greedy and pony up for prism ring. I will be closing the gap soon and my friends are going to take my 5 color Karona life gain deck seriously. A real contender.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
My LGS is also starting up a competitive EDH FNM, which I'm convinced is a terrible idea, and I picked up a Winter Orb so I can play elves if I ever feel like being filthy. I don't play Stax or anything close to it, so I would have no other usage for a Winter Orb than this one corner case.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
in that sense, i dont think i have any decks with cards that i feel are too powerful/too dirty, 'cuz the rest of the deck/table is in some sort of happy harmony with it. we dont really have much of a banlist as such. my b/g deck runs RN, and one guy in my group uses mox emerald. sure they're powerful, but our group doesn't end up trying to break the game, we're trying to tell cool stories/create interesting interactions.
i think its a bit tragic when i read about people whining on the internet about cards being too powerful and so on; sure hermit druid can be broken, but it doesn't really have to be.
that being said, i think the closest ive ever had to feeling bad for playing something overpowered was balance in combination with greater gargadon suspended.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I've built casually with Survival. Not a big deal.
Not all people treat EDH as an arms race.
Recognize it how you'd like, I've played it in many healthy back and forth games. It's a very powerful card, but only as powerful as the creatures/combos it can interact with, which was my point.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
In my Ghave deck, I still run Seedborn Muse, Academy Rector, and the Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion combo but I cut Tooth and Nail as well as Defense of the Heart. I still use Demonic Tutor, Eladamri's Call, and the above mentioned Rector as tutors, but unlike Animar, this deck's gameplan can definitely be slowed and stopped by interaction. Mike + Trike never see the field at the same time unless the game is just dragging on, and both creatures fit the overall theme of the commander anyways, so I allowed them to stay (+1/+1 counters and tokens being the themes)
Tooth and Nail was just too often an instant win. The same with Craterhoof Behemoth. If I played more blue decks, I sure wouldn't include Cyclonic Rift in any of them, either, because it's pretty anti-climatic as far as who wins after that.
Jusstice, c'mon, man, you know better than this. You are a very competitive guy. Not everyone who plays this format plays it so competitively as you do. In fact, most don't. It's true. Really.
Built competitively, Survival is a very powerful card, and one that should probably be on the banned list if anyone ever gets around to making a competitive multiplayer EDH sub-format, but it's very possible to run it in a more casually-built deck and not have it be broken as hell.
Animar is a very easy general to break and make super-powerful without even trying hard. Indeed, if you are even a minimally competent deck builder, it's probably harder to build a non-broken Animar deck than it is to build a broken-as-heck one.
For me, "improvement" of a deck is tailoring it so it plays the way I'd like it to. I don't like my decks to be competitive as possible.
I'd like to think a vast majority of EDH players approach it this way, including the RC.