I was playing my new Anya deck based heavily on Honarius' primer and I was outmatched all game by Orzhov and Golgari decks. In the end I came back with Starfield of Nix swinging hard all because of the recursion.
The question is how useful would Rest in Peace be? Is the benefit of shutting down crazy yard users better than some of white's best creatures like Sun Titan and Karmic Guide? Or is WR stuck with Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus?
It is absolutely impossible to properly evaluate whether RIP is a good choice for your deck without knowing a lot more about the list. It's an amazing card for some decks, and dangerous for others to play.
You'll want to use card tags when talking about specific cards. To do so, use [card] and [/card] tags before and after each card you want to link. For example, [card]Rest in Peace[/card] becomes Rest In Peace.
To answer your question, I think it depends on your meta (the decks you most often play) and your own deck. If your deck uses and abuses the graveyard, I think Rest in Peace is not a good idea. However, if all of your opponents that you regularly face play decks designed to abuse the graveyard, I would definitely consider Rest in Peace. As a red and white deck, you are likely a more aggressive, combat-based deck, and I would consider the graveyard less of a resource to you than most other decks.
Always include some means to kill graveyards (to include lots of exile effects) in your decks, especially if your use of the gy is incidental or nonexistent. Run several if your meta calls for it.
Morningtide and Burn Away can zap at instant speed, with Morningtide fetchable with the beloved Sunforger. Both Red and White have several spells that exile both en masse and individual targets. Maybe add some or more of these, depending on regular opposition. If your list reliably deals damage and can prevent it, then Crumbling Sanctuary might be your tool of choice.
For myself, I often eschew most recursion for gy hate; it is amazing how many EDH players seem to automatically presume their (and others') graveyards exist solely as library extensions or even key parts of their strategy. Upending that belief is satisfying.
Cheers!
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Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt and Rest in Peace are great graveyard hate; with that written, it is difficult to gauge how much you need. Still, it is best to sacrifice a bit to stop your opponents from winning. If you have flicker effects, maybe Angel of Finality will be a great pick for you.
It also depends on the environment you play in. If a lot of people are running cards that reference graveyards, it will be intensely worth it. If you're the only one, then it's actively bad.
I frequently include it in decks just because you never know what people are going to spring on you.
Hate cards are definite meta calls. Rest in Peacedoes have value beyond hate. (It helps Eldrazi processors.)
That said, it really depends on what you're facing. Something like Dictate of Erebos or Skullclamp is hated out by RIP but not by a lot of other graveyard hate cards. So unless you're trying to stop death triggers, you can just keep Tormod's Crypt ready in case they try something funny.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I wouldn't say you're stuck with one shot effects. But i find one shot effects nearly as good (or better if you can recur them) than RIP. Most graveyard-centric decks are in a combination of black + green and/or white. Meaning when you drop RIP, they will simply put their plan on hold until its removed or remove it right away. Meaning most of the time, the initial exile is what the enchantment accomplishes.
Unless you're playing a list that aims at going lategame, i find that the one shot effect is just as effective and draws less hate from the board. (All their reanimated fatties are going after you if they can't remove it.). Holding them "in check" with a tormods crypt to force them to make suboptimal plays or be nice to you if they want their recursion to resolve is a nice political trick.
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EDH decks:
RWUNarset, jeskai burn RUB Marchesa the black rose R Daretti, reanimator goodstuff BU Vela, ninja assasin UG Ezuri, woodland critters.
Several people have already said this, but RIP is definitely strong, but you need to evaluate if it will hurt you more than help you by including it. I run a Selvala list that doesn't really interact with my GY much, but there are times when I want to get cards back so I chose to run Scavenging Ooze instead of RIP for GY hate.
In general, I would always pack some sort of GY hate card in any list that you can. There are several good artifact hate cards that could make RIP not necessary, but again it all depends on your list.
I built a deck around rest in peace with I think only the one nonbo, (tamiyo ultimate). Everydeck in my meta is using some kind of powerful recursion it is rare that it doesn't hit something relevent or squeeze my opponents options
The problem for RW is card advantage, my RIP deck is UW so I can just draw cards into redundancy rather than needing to reuse the same spells rw is really limited with their spells often very often RW is going to want to reuse the same spells without the versatility of blue some spells are just more important than others. I would stick to targeted grave removal. I recommend Stonecloaker.
As others have said the value of hate cards is largely meta-dependent. However, given the popularity of graveyard shenanigans in EDH you can gain an edge in most metas by shutting off the graveyard. In my experience, you can pretty safely run 1 or 2 nonbos along with your hate cards and not often be punished for it. There's also a good chance that someone will blow up your Rest in Peace and unlock your, say, one-of Regrowth effect. All this applies to Torpor Orb too, for whatever that's worth.
RIP single-handedly shuts down an awful lot of powerful commanders, and a lot cards which see heavy play. It's probably a card that should be at least considered for most decks using white, but as others have said, whether it actually makes the cut will depend on a variety of factors, including the nature of your metagame and the degree to which your own deck potentially utilizes the graveyard.
Personally, I think it's an underplayed card in the format.
I play it all the time. It hoses so many decks. Even if you do depend on your graveyard, You decide when and how to play it. It really is underplayed. When I cast this, people are groaning and tutoring for creatures that can take it out. Then I land Humility....
This highlights a key problem with hate cards in a multiplayer format: they put a target on your head. Rest in Peace does its job well but can draw aggro because of this. In some decks I prefer rattlesnake effects that say "don't mess with me or else" rather than the "kill me or your deck doesn't work" that cards like Rest in Peace, Stranglehold, Humility, and company convey.
I'm having a similar indecision in my Daxos the Returned deck. Currently running Agent of Erebos and Cremate for GY hate against Meren and a couple others. My only recursion is Sun Titan and Auramancer, so rest in peace wouldn't be bad. But, as someone already mentioned RIP could draw a lot of hate. I think this is due to the constant effect it has when on the table as opposed to one time shots like crypt or spot GY removal like Stonecloaker.
Good luck!
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But, as someone already mentioned RIP could draw a lot of hate.
I've found that aside from an odd game where you've going against a Karador, Meren and Mimeoplasm deck or whatever, the hate you generate is often offset by other people being thrilled you've dealt with the problem. I've had a third party counterspell attempts to remove RiP before because it was keeping a Marchesa deck in check for example.
Besides, I think an argument can be made that by the time you've reached the point where RiP is doing work you should already be the primary target anyway, and if you're not you should reevalute why you've gone that long without doing anything worth causing people worry
But, as someone already mentioned RIP could draw a lot of hate.
I've found that aside from an odd game where you've going against a Karador, Meren and Mimeoplasm deck or whatever, the hate you generate is often offset by other people being thrilled you've dealt with the problem. I've had a third party counterspell attempts to remove RiP before because it was keeping a Marchesa deck in check for example.
Besides, I think an argument can be made that by the time you've reached the point where RiP is doing work you should already be the primary target anyway, and if you're not you should reevalute why you've gone that long without doing anything worth causing people worry
This is a great perspective. Thank you. I never thought about other players being thankful for hosing the graveyard player. I'm gonna give it a shot and see what shakes.
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This highlights a key problem with hate cards in a multiplayer format: they put a target on your head. Rest in Peace does its job well but can draw aggro because of this. In some decks I prefer rattlesnake effects that say "don't mess with me or else" rather than the "kill me or your deck doesn't work" that cards like Rest in Peace, Stranglehold, Humility, and company convey.
It depends on how well your opponents grok politricks. Take Stranglehold. If one player is playing Narset, and I have Stranglehold out, the Narset player hates me, but everyone else wants that Stranglehold to remain in the game. (Well, maybe not green players.)
At least hypothetically. Some people are really bad at this sort of thing.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Always include some means to kill graveyards (to include lots of exile effects) in your decks, especially if your use of the gy is incidental or nonexistent. Run several if your meta calls for it.
Morningtide and Burn Away can zap at instant speed, with Morningtide fetchable with the beloved Sunforger. Both Red and White have several spells that exile both en masse and individual targets. Maybe add some or more of these, depending on regular opposition. If your list reliably deals damage and can prevent it, then Crumbling Sanctuary might be your tool of choice.
For myself, I often eschew most recursion for gy hate; it is amazing how many EDH players seem to automatically presume their (and others') graveyards exist solely as library extensions or even key parts of their strategy. Upending that belief is satisfying.
Cheers!
Although Morningtide is good, I think you are confusing it with Honor the Fallen, another excellent trick.
But, as someone already mentioned RIP could draw a lot of hate.
I've found that aside from an odd game where you've going against a Karador, Meren and Mimeoplasm deck or whatever, the hate you generate is often offset by other people being thrilled you've dealt with the problem. I've had a third party counterspell attempts to remove RiP before because it was keeping a Marchesa deck in check for example.
Besides, I think an argument can be made that by the time you've reached the point where RiP is doing work you should already be the primary target anyway, and if you're not you should reevalute why you've gone that long without doing anything worth causing people worry
Went ahead and put Rest in Peace in my Daxos Enchantments deck and had some glorious games. It single handedly demolished Meren and I locked it up with Greater Auramancy to ensure it stuck around. Found myself using my tutors to get it into play asap.
Glad I stumbled across this thread. Daxos is pleased.
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This highlights a key problem with hate cards in a multiplayer format: they put a target on your head. Rest in Peace does its job well but can draw aggro because of this. In some decks I prefer rattlesnake effects that say "don't mess with me or else" rather than the "kill me or your deck doesn't work" that cards like Rest in Peace, Stranglehold, Humility, and company convey.
Depends on the table. As mentioned, if a hate card is keeping a strong deck at bay, other players will work to protect it. Some decks can straight-up fold to hate, as well. They may not like what you've done, but they may not be able to do anything about it. My roommate's Karador deck has few answers to RIP, and only 1 answer if I've got both RIP and Torpor Orb. The chaos deck in my meta auto-scoops when Aura Shards lands.
Rest in Peace is indeed a very powerful hate card, it is very polarizing. I personally don't prefer to run such insane hosing cards, since taking a player completely out of the game just isn't very sporting in a format designed around fun times. I'd prefer each player get the chance to play their best strategies, and may the best player win. Spot or one-shot graveyard removal and answer cards are certainly important and should be expected, but the simple set-it-and-forget-it hoser cards aren't very fun IMHO.
This highlights a key problem with hate cards in a multiplayer format: they put a target on your head. Rest in Peace does its job well but can draw aggro because of this. In some decks I prefer rattlesnake effects that say "don't mess with me or else" rather than the "kill me or your deck doesn't work" that cards like Rest in Peace, Stranglehold, Humility, and company convey.
Depends on the table. As mentioned, if a hate card is keeping a strong deck at bay, other players will work to protect it. Some decks can straight-up fold to hate, as well. They may not like what you've done, but they may not be able to do anything about it. My roommate's Karador deck has few answers to RIP, and only 1 answer if I've got both RIP and Torpor Orb. The chaos deck in my meta auto-scoops when Aura Shards lands.
My Ghave deck has trouble with Æther Snap and Sigarda, Host of Herons. I can answer most things, but those two are among the biggest blind spots. (Usually Sigarda involves cheating in a Pacifism- or Lignify-style aura with Sun Titan or Replenish or playing a boardwipe, but it has no answer for Æther Snap. Not an auto-scoop, but still...)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
The question is how useful would Rest in Peace be? Is the benefit of shutting down crazy yard users better than some of white's best creatures like Sun Titan and Karmic Guide? Or is WR stuck with Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus?
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To answer your question, I think it depends on your meta (the decks you most often play) and your own deck. If your deck uses and abuses the graveyard, I think Rest in Peace is not a good idea. However, if all of your opponents that you regularly face play decks designed to abuse the graveyard, I would definitely consider Rest in Peace. As a red and white deck, you are likely a more aggressive, combat-based deck, and I would consider the graveyard less of a resource to you than most other decks.
That being said, I'd probably just include cards that have graveyard hate in addition to regular abilities. Relic of Progenitus, Angel of Finality, Stonecloaker, and even Containment Priest might all do well for you.
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Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsMorningtide and Burn Away can zap at instant speed, with Morningtide fetchable with the beloved Sunforger. Both Red and White have several spells that exile both en masse and individual targets. Maybe add some or more of these, depending on regular opposition. If your list reliably deals damage and can prevent it, then Crumbling Sanctuary might be your tool of choice.
For myself, I often eschew most recursion for gy hate; it is amazing how many EDH players seem to automatically presume their (and others') graveyards exist solely as library extensions or even key parts of their strategy. Upending that belief is satisfying.
Cheers!
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Keep brewing.
I frequently include it in decks just because you never know what people are going to spring on you.
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That said, it really depends on what you're facing. Something like Dictate of Erebos or Skullclamp is hated out by RIP but not by a lot of other graveyard hate cards. So unless you're trying to stop death triggers, you can just keep Tormod's Crypt ready in case they try something funny.
On phasing:
Unless you're playing a list that aims at going lategame, i find that the one shot effect is just as effective and draws less hate from the board. (All their reanimated fatties are going after you if they can't remove it.). Holding them "in check" with a tormods crypt to force them to make suboptimal plays or be nice to you if they want their recursion to resolve is a nice political trick.
RWU Narset, jeskai burn
RUB Marchesa the black rose
R Daretti, reanimator goodstuff
BU Vela, ninja assasin
UG Ezuri, woodland critters.
In general, I would always pack some sort of GY hate card in any list that you can. There are several good artifact hate cards that could make RIP not necessary, but again it all depends on your list.
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RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
The problem for RW is card advantage, my RIP deck is UW so I can just draw cards into redundancy rather than needing to reuse the same spells rw is really limited with their spells often very often RW is going to want to reuse the same spells without the versatility of blue some spells are just more important than others. I would stick to targeted grave removal. I recommend Stonecloaker.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
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UBGMill, Sidisi, and Other ShenanigansGBU
WUBRGShingeki no TazriGRBUW
Edit: Building around your own copy of Rest in Peace also lets you ignore some very commonly played cards like Relic of Progenitus and Scavenging Ooze. In that way Rest in Peace can be tech even when you don't draw it.
Personally, I think it's an underplayed card in the format.
This highlights a key problem with hate cards in a multiplayer format: they put a target on your head. Rest in Peace does its job well but can draw aggro because of this. In some decks I prefer rattlesnake effects that say "don't mess with me or else" rather than the "kill me or your deck doesn't work" that cards like Rest in Peace, Stranglehold, Humility, and company convey.
Good luck!
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EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
I've found that aside from an odd game where you've going against a Karador, Meren and Mimeoplasm deck or whatever, the hate you generate is often offset by other people being thrilled you've dealt with the problem. I've had a third party counterspell attempts to remove RiP before because it was keeping a Marchesa deck in check for example.
Besides, I think an argument can be made that by the time you've reached the point where RiP is doing work you should already be the primary target anyway, and if you're not you should reevalute why you've gone that long without doing anything worth causing people worry
GReki, the History of Kamigawa Legendfall
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest Drawmaster of Trest | GBGlissa the Traitor A Touch of Death | WBTeysa, Orzhov Scion Spinning in Graves
UWIsperia, Supreme Judge A Riddles of Sphinxes | RG Mena and Denn, Wildborn Beware Falling Rocks | GWSigarda, Host of Hurons The Enchantress
WRGRith the Awakener Superfriendly Tokens
This is a great perspective. Thank you. I never thought about other players being thankful for hosing the graveyard player. I'm gonna give it a shot and see what shakes.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
It depends on how well your opponents grok politricks. Take Stranglehold. If one player is playing Narset, and I have Stranglehold out, the Narset player hates me, but everyone else wants that Stranglehold to remain in the game. (Well, maybe not green players.)
At least hypothetically. Some people are really bad at this sort of thing.
On phasing:
Although Morningtide is good, I think you are confusing it with Honor the Fallen, another excellent trick.
Went ahead and put Rest in Peace in my Daxos Enchantments deck and had some glorious games. It single handedly demolished Meren and I locked it up with Greater Auramancy to ensure it stuck around. Found myself using my tutors to get it into play asap.
Glad I stumbled across this thread. Daxos is pleased.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
My Ghave deck has trouble with Æther Snap and Sigarda, Host of Herons. I can answer most things, but those two are among the biggest blind spots. (Usually Sigarda involves cheating in a Pacifism- or Lignify-style aura with Sun Titan or Replenish or playing a boardwipe, but it has no answer for Æther Snap. Not an auto-scoop, but still...)
On phasing: