the other day I picked out Ali from Cairo from a special box back at my parents house when I was visiting.
I keep the card separate from my collection because it was a special birthday present from my uncle, who got me into magic in the first place.
I decided it was time to finally give him some of the limelight, so I figured i'd build a deck around him. I put together some cards, had a bit of a think, then looked online for new ideas or cards i'd potentially missed.
shock, horror, sadness - Ali isn't legendary!?!?!?!
the formatting, style and fact he has a specific name makes it all seem like he's Legendary... surely this is a mistake? no errata?
i was naturally upset. but a thought struck me - did it matter? the wording on the card makes him basically legendary, and commander is all about the flavour and the nostalgia. surely running him as my general is entirely inkeeping with the spirit of the format!
as far as I was concerned, it was a done deal. i'd run him anyway, and just enjoy it. if anyone picked it out or rules-lawyered me i'd explain my thinking and see how they responded.
my question is:
if you sat down opposite me and I presented Ali as my commander, would you even bat an eyelid?
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the formatting, style and fact he has a specific name makes it all seem like he's Legendary... surely this is a mistake? no errata?
Legends introduced Legendary cards, which came after Arabian NIghts, so no cards in Arabian Nights are Legendary, even those specifically referring to figures that would otherwise be legendary.
i was naturally upset. but a thought struck me - did it matter? the wording on the card makes him basically legendary, and commander is all about the flavour and the nostalgia. surely running him as my general is entirely inkeeping with the spirit of the format!
as far as I was concerned, it was a done deal. i'd run him anyway, and just enjoy it. if anyone picked it out or rules-lawyered me i'd explain my thinking and see how they responded.
my question is:
if you sat down opposite me and I presented Ali as my commander, would you even bat an eyelid?
Actually, it probably wouldn't initially occur to me he isn't legendary, but once I found out, I would ask if it were okay to play with one of my decks with a commander thqat's not legendary, but seems like it should have been (5color Maelstrom Archangel angel tribal.)
Actually, it probably wouldn't initially occur to me he isn't legendary, but once I found out, I would ask if it were okay to play with one of my decks with a commander thqat's not legendary, but seems like it should have been (5color Maelstrom Archangel angel tribal.)
not to start a disagreement, but your comment on archangel really isn't the same thing as my point about Ali.
Ali is a named character. for nearly all of Magic as a game, named characters have been legendary, more often than not to solve the issue of more than one being on the battlefield at once on your side of the battlefield (or on both, before the rules change).
maelstrom archangel is just a broadly generic kind of angel, probably from a "maelstrom". there could be many of them. she doesn't have a name, and isn't a distinctive singular person in the lore of magic.
so yeah... i mean. it definitely fits with the lore/flavour/spirit of EDH, so i don't think anyone could complain on those grounds to Ali as a commander, but if you were to rules-lawyer on a technicality then yes, technically he's not a legal choice.
there may be other named characters from magic's past... i'm thinking Uncle Istvan is one of them, that need to be credited or erratad to be legendary.
but the question still stands - would it actually bother you in any way shape or form if I pulled Ali out of my deckbox? i'm guessing not, but i'd like to gauge the community on this matter because I could be on the wrong side of the fence and people could be more rules-y than i'd previously thought.
i'd like to make it clear that I don't think it's in the spirit of the format to run Banned cards. They are banned for a reason. the format and its clear choices on restricted/banned cards are all in place to maximise fun - but as far as I can see, Ali seems to fall outside of this scenario and isn't a problem card.
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I would also allow it. The same with Abu and Alladin. They were ledgendary before ledgendary existed. And it's not like you wanted to play Stoneforge Mystic as your commander.
I'd allow a number of non-legend cards to be used as generals. The clear individual characters from the pre-legendary creature era, Genju of the Realm, Nephalim (as much as I hate them) are all pretty ok by me.
I'd absolutly allow you to play an Ali from Cairo deck. The reason he isn't legendary is because his card was printed prior to them inventing the legend rule.
Only if you had a Pyramids in your deck. It is a big flavor card that just pre-dates the legendary rule. If your group doesn't allow it then they are probably not very fun people and you should find a new group.
I would be perfectly fine with this. I personally would encourage it, in fact. Nobody I play with has ever tried it but I would be ok with any of the named creatures as a commander.
I'm less ok with the Nephelim (they annoy me, no other reason).
I'd allow a number of non-legend cards to be used as generals. The clear individual characters from the pre-legendary creature era, Genju of the Realm, Nephalim (as much as I hate them) are all pretty ok by me.
Genju is legendary I thought? Also, the nephilim were printed after the "legends matter" block, so they're not legendary for a reason.
I'd allow a number of non-legend cards to be used as generals. The clear individual characters from the pre-legendary creature era, Genju of the Realm, Nephalim (as much as I hate them) are all pretty ok by me.
Genju is legendary I thought? Also, the nephilim were printed after the "legends matter" block, so they're not legendary for a reason.
Genju is legendary but technically not a creature so he can't legally be used as a Commander. However he's awesome and in my opinion deserves special consideration. Not like it's amazing anyway.
MaRo (and others?) is on record for saying that if Commander was a thing around regular Ravnica block they would have been Legendary. In addition they are completely unique both in game and in story so they really do qualify as "Legendary" creatures regardless of card text. However the RC does not do individual card 'errata' for the format. But that is a different discussion.
I honestly allow any of the Arabian Nights Obvious Named Cards as generals, but it's a good idea to have a backup general behind it. Just in case you come across someone who doesn't share your train of thought, y'know?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
the formatting, style and fact he has a specific name makes it all seem like he's Legendary... surely this is a mistake? no errata?
Legends introduced Legendary cards, which came after Arabian NIghts, so no cards in Arabian Nights are Legendary, even those specifically referring to figures that would otherwise be legendary.
TBH, Ali from Cairo isn't that good in Commander. Yeah, you can stop something like Purphoros (temporarily), but Commander damage or something like "infinite mana and Exsanguinate" or "infinite tokens, Blood Artist, Damnation" kills you every time. But I support your right to make Ali your general. Or other 'obviously should be legendary' creatures.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'd be absolutely fine with it. Though I'd be probably be a bit irked if someone just sat down with that deck and assumed I was fine with it without asking first, but I certainly agree with your rationale. Ali's clearly a legendary in spirit and a pretty cool card to boot.
I would be fine with it. I've seen people wanting to play all sorts of characters that predate Legends as their General and for the most part it's not a big deal because all of them are so underpowered. Cards like Ali from Cairo, Abu Ja'far, Aladdin, El-Hajjâj, and Sinbad all feel very Legendary from their name, and the fact that their creature type line says "Summon Ali From Cairo" makes it seem like they were tailor-made to be Legends. I never really bought the creature-type argument based on Bird Maiden and Dandân doing the same thing without being an iconic character; they just did funky things back then with creature types (like Island Fish Jaconius being an "Island Fish" and people arguing that it should die to a Tsunami...). But really, if someone wants to pull out Uncle Istvan, Niall Silvain, or Will-o'-the-Wisp then more power to them.
And while we are on the subject, Nephilim and Genju of the Realms are also fine by me. I wouldn't go much past that though.
Ali From Cairo is fine and as long as your playgroup is fine with it there shouldn't be a problem. I have seen some variations of Pauper Dragon Highlander that allowed you to have a rare (non-legendary) as your commander so there is that. Just keep in mind that Ali is super squish.
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Peasant: Storm (UR) Commander:Hazezon Tamar (GRW), Arjun, the Shifting Flame (UR), [Waiting on Amonkhet] Tiny Leader: [Waiting on Amonkhet] Peasant Dragon: [Waiting on Amonkhet] Modern: Orzhova Spirits (WB) Legacy: Burn (R) Vintage: Bazaar Dredge (B)
I'd be absolutely fine with it. Though I'd be probably be a bit irked if someone just sat down with that deck and assumed I was fine with it without asking first, but I certainly agree with your rationale. Ali's clearly a legendary in spirit and a pretty cool card to boot.
This is how I see it. If you did it w/o asking I'd be annoyed, I mean we can all come up with flavor reasons for all sorts of shenanigans. But assuming you asked and explained then I'd probably be fine with it. You just can't be annoyed if someone doesn't agree to it.
I'd be absolutely fine with it. Though I'd be probably be a bit irked if someone just sat down with that deck and assumed I was fine with it without asking first, but I certainly agree with your rationale. Ali's clearly a legendary in spirit and a pretty cool card to boot.
This is how I see it. If you did it w/o asking I'd be annoyed, I mean we can all come up with flavor reasons for all sorts of shenanigans. But assuming you asked and explained then I'd probably be fine with it. You just can't be annoyed if someone doesn't agree to it.
Yeah I'm completely on that train of thought as well. As it happens I've got a very serviceable Jaya Ballard deck which uses Diaochan as a backup general. Ali could feasibly sit atop that pile as we speak and would be a fun (if hideously underpowered) centre for conversation.
Permission from players is obviously key here. I'm glad so many people share my thinking on the named characters from arabian nights.
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All the exceptions people have mentioned so far (Pre-Legends legends, Nephilim, Genju, etc.) are sure to get a thumbs up from my group as long as you let us know you're going to do it. In addition, we've allowed Chromanticore decks, multiple different Planeswalker-helmed builds, Shadowmoor deities, Sovereigns of Lost Alara, Elbrus, the Binding Blade, really as long as you can make a good case for it or it seems like it will make for an interesting experience we'll probably allow it.
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I keep the card separate from my collection because it was a special birthday present from my uncle, who got me into magic in the first place.
I decided it was time to finally give him some of the limelight, so I figured i'd build a deck around him. I put together some cards, had a bit of a think, then looked online for new ideas or cards i'd potentially missed.
shock, horror, sadness - Ali isn't legendary!?!?!?!
the formatting, style and fact he has a specific name makes it all seem like he's Legendary... surely this is a mistake? no errata?
i was naturally upset. but a thought struck me - did it matter? the wording on the card makes him basically legendary, and commander is all about the flavour and the nostalgia. surely running him as my general is entirely inkeeping with the spirit of the format!
as far as I was concerned, it was a done deal. i'd run him anyway, and just enjoy it. if anyone picked it out or rules-lawyered me i'd explain my thinking and see how they responded.
my question is:
if you sat down opposite me and I presented Ali as my commander, would you even bat an eyelid?
Actually, it probably wouldn't initially occur to me he isn't legendary, but once I found out, I would ask if it were okay to play with one of my decks with a commander thqat's not legendary, but seems like it should have been (5color Maelstrom Archangel angel tribal.)
not to start a disagreement, but your comment on archangel really isn't the same thing as my point about Ali.
Ali is a named character. for nearly all of Magic as a game, named characters have been legendary, more often than not to solve the issue of more than one being on the battlefield at once on your side of the battlefield (or on both, before the rules change).
maelstrom archangel is just a broadly generic kind of angel, probably from a "maelstrom". there could be many of them. she doesn't have a name, and isn't a distinctive singular person in the lore of magic.
so yeah... i mean. it definitely fits with the lore/flavour/spirit of EDH, so i don't think anyone could complain on those grounds to Ali as a commander, but if you were to rules-lawyer on a technicality then yes, technically he's not a legal choice.
there may be other named characters from magic's past... i'm thinking Uncle Istvan is one of them, that need to be credited or erratad to be legendary.
but the question still stands - would it actually bother you in any way shape or form if I pulled Ali out of my deckbox? i'm guessing not, but i'd like to gauge the community on this matter because I could be on the wrong side of the fence and people could be more rules-y than i'd previously thought.
i'd like to make it clear that I don't think it's in the spirit of the format to run Banned cards. They are banned for a reason. the format and its clear choices on restricted/banned cards are all in place to maximise fun - but as far as I can see, Ali seems to fall outside of this scenario and isn't a problem card.
that's an incredible idea, and I would heartily support this if you were in my commander group!
Same with Istvan, really.
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In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
I'm less ok with the Nephelim (they annoy me, no other reason).
amazingly epic sig courtesy of DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Planes.
I actually think it would be cool to see someone use sutch a card.
Genju is legendary but technically not a creature so he can't legally be used as a Commander. However he's awesome and in my opinion deserves special consideration. Not like it's amazing anyway.
MaRo (and others?) is on record for saying that if Commander was a thing around regular Ravnica block they would have been Legendary. In addition they are completely unique both in game and in story so they really do qualify as "Legendary" creatures regardless of card text. However the RC does not do individual card 'errata' for the format. But that is a different discussion.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
See also: Abu Ja'far, Aladdin, Ali Baba, Sindbad.
TBH, Ali from Cairo isn't that good in Commander. Yeah, you can stop something like Purphoros (temporarily), but Commander damage or something like "infinite mana and Exsanguinate" or "infinite tokens, Blood Artist, Damnation" kills you every time. But I support your right to make Ali your general. Or other 'obviously should be legendary' creatures.
On phasing:
And while we are on the subject, Nephilim and Genju of the Realms are also fine by me. I wouldn't go much past that though.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Commander: Hazezon Tamar (GRW), Arjun, the Shifting Flame (UR), [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Tiny Leader: [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Peasant Dragon: [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Modern: Orzhova Spirits (WB)
Legacy: Burn (R)
Vintage: Bazaar Dredge (B)
This is how I see it. If you did it w/o asking I'd be annoyed, I mean we can all come up with flavor reasons for all sorts of shenanigans. But assuming you asked and explained then I'd probably be fine with it. You just can't be annoyed if someone doesn't agree to it.
Yeah I'm completely on that train of thought as well. As it happens I've got a very serviceable Jaya Ballard deck which uses Diaochan as a backup general. Ali could feasibly sit atop that pile as we speak and would be a fun (if hideously underpowered) centre for conversation.
Permission from players is obviously key here. I'm glad so many people share my thinking on the named characters from arabian nights.