Havengul Lich was a card I was very excited for back during Dark Ascension spoiler season (hard to believe that was so long ago). I was just getting into EDH with my fun, janky tribal Grimgrin deck and the Lich seemed like an awesome addition. But cards like Gravecrawler and Diregraf Captain slowly shifted Grimgrin into a more cutthroat combo deck, and (combined with his restrictions) Havengul Lich basically saw no real play and was quickly cut from the list.
Over the years since that deck grew and changed and ultimately became something wholly different with Lazav at the helm. With Lazav loving things going into the opponent's grave, the Lich crossed my mind as a possible inclusion, but being unable to cast most anything from my opponents' yards and my running so few creatures myself I never gave him serious cobsideration.
But now, with the removal of rule 4..things are very different. Suddenly Havengul Lich makes the mill in my deck matter far more, and in testing he has become a very worthwhile addition to my deck at long last, what he always wanted to be.
I think the one issue with the Lich in purely UB is that you're going to want 5 color mana rocks, while 2 color usually already is stocked up with things like the Signets, Talisman, the works. This means you're going to dedicate resources to a single card that you may never get. Rather, you're picking some weaker cards just to make that one card work. Does the Lich do enough work to justify that?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I started running Chromatic Lantern again (and I already ran Ingot). Lantern helps me have as much blue open as I need anyways. Plus I run both Tezzerets, artifacts are decently important in my deck.
I don't think the Rule 4 change would really get me to reevaluate this card. Where I already run him to recur my own stuff, I'll take this as a bonus that happens every now and then. Where I don't run him, I'm not going to start doing so on the off chance he'll be able to take the occasional extra card from an opponents GY.
That said, I do think it's a good card, and it's probably no. 2 on my "wish it was legendary" list (behind Tamanoa)
I will probably be slotting the Lich into my Nicol Bolas deck, which functions in part by using opponents' stuff against them, and which runs things like Chromatic Lantern and Darksteel Ingot. Worse comes to worse, I still just use it to recur my own stuff.
I think the one issue with the Lich in purely UB is that you're going to want 5 color mana rocks, while 2 color usually already is stocked up with things like the Signets, Talisman, the works. This means you're going to dedicate resources to a single card that you may never get. Rather, you're picking some weaker cards just to make that one card work. Does the Lich do enough work to justify that?
Can't you run city of brass, mana confluence, vivid marsh/vivid creek etc?
I think the one issue with the Lich in purely UB is that you're going to want 5 color mana rocks, while 2 color usually already is stocked up with things like the Signets, Talisman, the works. This means you're going to dedicate resources to a single card that you may never get. Rather, you're picking some weaker cards just to make that one card work. Does the Lich do enough work to justify that?
Can't you run city of brass, mana confluence, vivid marsh/vivid creek etc?
Yes, but those are generally going to be worse for you than Drowned Catacomb/Sunken Ruins/What have you since they all have non-trivial drawbacks. If you run those just to support one card, it might not be worth the effort. If you also run a few other cards that benefit from the use of those, then sure.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Yes, but those are generally going to be worse for you than Drowned Catacomb/Sunken Ruins/What have you since they all have non-trivial drawbacks. If you run those just to support one card, it might not be worth the effort. If you also run a few other cards that benefit from the use of those, then sure.
They might still be worthwhile in a Lazav deck at this point. Lazav frequently has the option of being something with an activated ability, and you're almost certainly running some amount of reanimation in that deck. It really depends on how often you see worthwhile, off color activated abilities. For Lich on his own, maybe not.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
I guess I've had a different experience than you with Havengul Lich - I've found him to be exceedingly powerful in my grixis deck. He lets you re-cast any dude in your yard (and now, anyone's yard). I've found that ability to be extremely powerful, and now it will be even moreso. May I ask what made you feel that he was no longer powerful enough to warrant inclusion in your list? Did you have a low amount of quality targets to recur?
If gilded lotus saw any play, the lich might be good. And the lich targets your own creatures, but how do i get creatures in my yard?
1) Gilded Lotus does see play.
2) Havengul Lich can target any creature in any graveyard.
3) Creatures dying through the course of the game, purposely discarding them, mill, or cards like Entomb.
Lich has been in my progenitus deck for years for shigs and tiggles, though that's obviously unaffected by the rule change.
I'm not sure if he's useful in straight UB, because you are better off playing the 2-mana on-color rocks than going for the 3-mana rocks that tap for any color. You rarely have color problems so you are better off playing the lower CMC ramp options, and unless you have a really big theft theme (Praetor's Grasp, Nightveil Specter, etc.) it seems like it's not worth making a bunch of your mana rocks more expensive. Seems like people play him in Lazav, but I have no experience with the deck at all so I can't say anything about that. If you're going to play him just to recur your stuff, it seems like you would be better off playing a different reanimation spell, because lich is really slow.
He'll be better in UBx because those decks often will play the 3-mana rocks that tap for any color. In particular he's probably a shoo-in for sen triplets because they want every color anyway.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Got a Lazav, Dimir Mastermind deck with Havengul Lich, Praetor's Grasp and all possible Clones. This change made my day, because I was always complaining about Lazav changing into some green or red creature or something with R/G/W ability that I couldn't use. Now, my clone-theft deck will have some use again. I am actually quite happy.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
Got a Lazav, Dimir Mastermind deck with Havengul Lich, Praetor's Grasp and all possible Clones. This change made my day, because I was always complaining about Lazav changing into some green or red creature or something with R/G/W ability that I couldn't use. Now, my clone-theft deck will have some use again. I am actually quite happy.
My Wrexial deck is set up almost the exact same way. Grasp/Lich/Clones. My favorite Lich story is using Havengul Lich with Keiga, the Tide Star in play. Reanimate Phantasmal Image from my graveyard using Lich, copying Keiga. Let the Phantasmal Image Keiga go the graveyard via Legendary Rule. Gain control of target creature an opponent has. Rinse and repeat for 2U and steal more creatures.
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Over the years since that deck grew and changed and ultimately became something wholly different with Lazav at the helm. With Lazav loving things going into the opponent's grave, the Lich crossed my mind as a possible inclusion, but being unable to cast most anything from my opponents' yards and my running so few creatures myself I never gave him serious cobsideration.
But now, with the removal of rule 4..things are very different. Suddenly Havengul Lich makes the mill in my deck matter far more, and in testing he has become a very worthwhile addition to my deck at long last, what he always wanted to be.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
That said, I do think it's a good card, and it's probably no. 2 on my "wish it was legendary" list (behind Tamanoa)
Can't you run city of brass, mana confluence, vivid marsh/vivid creek etc?
Yes, but those are generally going to be worse for you than Drowned Catacomb/Sunken Ruins/What have you since they all have non-trivial drawbacks. If you run those just to support one card, it might not be worth the effort. If you also run a few other cards that benefit from the use of those, then sure.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebears1) Gilded Lotus does see play.
2) Havengul Lich can target any creature in any graveyard.
3) Creatures dying through the course of the game, purposely discarding them, mill, or cards like Entomb.
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I'm not sure if he's useful in straight UB, because you are better off playing the 2-mana on-color rocks than going for the 3-mana rocks that tap for any color. You rarely have color problems so you are better off playing the lower CMC ramp options, and unless you have a really big theft theme (Praetor's Grasp, Nightveil Specter, etc.) it seems like it's not worth making a bunch of your mana rocks more expensive. Seems like people play him in Lazav, but I have no experience with the deck at all so I can't say anything about that. If you're going to play him just to recur your stuff, it seems like you would be better off playing a different reanimation spell, because lich is really slow.
He'll be better in UBx because those decks often will play the 3-mana rocks that tap for any color. In particular he's probably a shoo-in for sen triplets because they want every color anyway.
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Havengul Lich was used mainly to reanimate creatures in my GY, sometimes in opponents when someone played B or U deck. Funny enough, I already have Vivid Marsh and Vivid Creek in the deck. Just added City of Brass, Mana Confluence plus I changed some artifacts for Darksteel Ingot and Chromatic Lantern. Tomorrow I will test it and I will see how it works.
He's been awesome just reanimating my stuff - it's going to be hilarious when i can get something from someone else's yard reliably.
Can not wait. the lich is great and this just makes him better.
My Wrexial deck is set up almost the exact same way. Grasp/Lich/Clones. My favorite Lich story is using Havengul Lich with Keiga, the Tide Star in play. Reanimate Phantasmal Image from my graveyard using Lich, copying Keiga. Let the Phantasmal Image Keiga go the graveyard via Legendary Rule. Gain control of target creature an opponent has. Rinse and repeat for 2U and steal more creatures.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck