You really can eliminate the damage aspect by just giving it lifelink. So, I'm thinking we use Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis as a commander so we can use Darien, King of Kjeldor and Cryptolith Rite (which should be a must-have in just about any 4+ color deck featuring green, TBH) plus something to double the tokens.
Its tutorable in rebels, but its also repeatable with Sun Titan. Exile can be relevant. Not sure how deep this particular effect is, white usually hates red via lifegain and protection, usually saving removal for instants and sorceries, and white has an easier time recurring creatures than spells. If you are in a red heavy meta and want an addition to your sun titan package, its worth considering.
Side note: I'm always tempted to build a color/hack deck that abuses cards like these by changing their text or the color of permanents/spells so I can target more. Blue is obviously needed, but the hate effects aren't deep enough in mono blue to make the obvious commander choice, Urza, viable. White always looks like the second color, but no commanders jive with the theme besides Urza. It would be janky even living the dream, but it seems like a fun experiment.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Actually quite nice since you can tutor it up with your other Rebels.
Does anyone think that WotC is way too careful with the Rebel/Mercenary creature type and new sets? I wouldn't mind seeing the odd playable addition to an old and now underpowered mechanic.
But I guess they don't really support Rebel as a creature type outside of the tribal interactions; Whipcorder is the only one that isn't from Masques or Time Spiral blocks. I guess the problem is that there are a lot of story lines that involve some kind of rebellion, so if you wanted to give the "Rebel" type to every creature that could be described as a rebel you'd have tons and tones of them.
Does anyone think that WotC is way too careful with the Rebel/Mercenary creature type and new sets? I wouldn't mind seeing the odd playable addition to an old and now underpowered mechanic.
I think it's because "Rebel" and "Mercenary" are so ill-defined in terms of how they fit, and it's difficult to justify giving a creature those attributes. Look at Lawbringer, for example. If you cover up its creature type, it could easily be a Cleric or a Monk, based on its name, illustration, and ability. It's only a Rebel because that was one of the mechanics in Masques Block. There's no good reason to bring back the creature type, because it's not distinct enough from other creature types.
It's the same with the Minion subtype. There's no reason Chainer is a "minion" and not, say, a shaman or wizard other than they wanted to focus on minions as the B creature class in Odyssey block.
Does anyone think that WotC is way too careful with the Rebel/Mercenary creature type and new sets? I wouldn't mind seeing the odd playable addition to an old and now underpowered mechanic.
I think it's because "Rebel" and "Mercenary" are so ill-defined in terms of how they fit, and it's difficult to justify giving a creature those attributes. Look at Lawbringer, for example. If you cover up its creature type, it could easily be a Cleric or a Monk, based on its name, illustration, and ability. It's only a Rebel because that was one of the mechanics in Masques Block. There's no good reason to bring back the creature type, because it's not distinct enough from other creature types.
It's the same with the Minion subtype. There's no reason Chainer is a "minion" and not, say, a shaman or wizard other than they wanted to focus on minions as the B creature class in Odyssey block.
From a flavor standpoint, Rebel made sense in the context of Masques block because all of them were united in rebellion against the Mercadian rulers. Being a rebel was their defining attribute, and was more important than whatever other class may have fit before. This flavor relies on the related mechanic though, as being ready to drop everything and answer the call (get tutored to play) is what really made them Rebels, that being part of a larger, united movement where their own identity was tied up in it. Kaladesh was the closest we've come to really seeing a movement that was similar (SoM was also close), but everyone was still fighting in that for their own reasons, with the goal being merely a change in leadership, while the Rebels in Masques were united in purpose and sought a total revolution. The goals of Gonti were different from Rashimi were different from Pia were different from Yahenni were different from Depala, and their strength came from how disparate their group was and how they were all defined by their different backgrounds and skill sets. The Mirrans were also defined by their differences, but in their case their disunity helped cause their downfall. The Ramosians, though, were defined by their unity and shared goals. The Timespiral rebels were a bit different: some were meant to represent the continuation of the Ramosian tradition, some were meant to represent an alternate timeline with black rebels, and some were flavor fails used to make more of the type.
Mercenaries are actually easier to justify. So long as the defining part of the creature is that they fight for money and are only loyal to whoever is paying them at the time, they can be a mercenary. Usually there needs to be a mechanical reason, but occasionally the concept is flavorful enough. Doomed Necromancer seems like a flavor fail.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
From a flavor standpoint, Rebel made sense in the context of Masques block because all of them were united in rebellion against the Mercadian rulers. Being a rebel was their defining attribute, and was more important than whatever other class may have fit before. This flavor relies on the related mechanic though, as being ready to drop everything and answer the call (get tutored to play) is what really made them Rebels, that being part of a larger, united movement where their own identity was tied up in it. Kaladesh was the closest we've come to really seeing a movement that was similar (SoM was also close), but everyone was still fighting in that for their own reasons, with the goal being merely a change in leadership, while the Rebels in Masques were united in purpose and sought a total revolution. The goals of Gonti were different from Rashimi were different from Pia were different from Yahenni were different from Depala, and their strength came from how disparate their group was and how they were all defined by their different backgrounds and skill sets. The Mirrans were also defined by their differences, but in their case their disunity helped cause their downfall. The Ramosians, though, were defined by their unity and shared goals. The Timespiral rebels were a bit different: some were meant to represent the continuation of the Ramosian tradition, some were meant to represent an alternate timeline with black rebels, and some were flavor fails used to make more of the type.
There were rebels in Nemesis and Prophecy as well, so the type was never exclusive to Mercadia and the Ramosians. I don't really know the lore well enough to say how they fit into your viewpoint, but I always assumed the reason that Masques block used "rebel" and "mercenary" as its main tribal themes rather than something less generic was precisely because they had to work in three different settings.
From a flavor standpoint, Rebel made sense in the context of Masques block because all of them were united in rebellion against the Mercadian rulers. Being a rebel was their defining attribute, and was more important than whatever other class may have fit before. This flavor relies on the related mechanic though, as being ready to drop everything and answer the call (get tutored to play) is what really made them Rebels, that being part of a larger, united movement where their own identity was tied up in it. Kaladesh was the closest we've come to really seeing a movement that was similar (SoM was also close), but everyone was still fighting in that for their own reasons, with the goal being merely a change in leadership, while the Rebels in Masques were united in purpose and sought a total revolution. The goals of Gonti were different from Rashimi were different from Pia were different from Yahenni were different from Depala, and their strength came from how disparate their group was and how they were all defined by their different backgrounds and skill sets. The Mirrans were also defined by their differences, but in their case their disunity helped cause their downfall. The Ramosians, though, were defined by their unity and shared goals. The Timespiral rebels were a bit different: some were meant to represent the continuation of the Ramosian tradition, some were meant to represent an alternate timeline with black rebels, and some were flavor fails used to make more of the type.
There were rebels in Nemesis and Prophecy as well, so the type was never exclusive to Mercadia and the Ramosians. I don't really know the lore well enough to say how they fit into your viewpoint, but I always assumed the reason that Masques block used "rebel" and "mercenary" as its main tribal themes rather than something less generic was precisely because they had to work in three different settings.
The rebels in Nemesis were a bit of a stretch: They were defined by their opposition to Volrath, and united in their purpose, and they had the rebel mechanic present, but they weren't the only ones opposing Volrath. You could argue that the elves and the en-kor defined themselves by their backgrounds first and their rebellion second, while the rebels, regardless of background, defined themselves by their commitment to the cause first. Its still a stretch.
The Prophecy rebels were a full on flavor fail. The story didn't paint them as "rebels first", as it was a story about the Keldon invasion, not a story about a rebellion, let alone a unified one. There were also no cards with the rebel mechanic in the set, so there is not flavorful reason for them to "answer the call" when a rebel with the mechanic uses it (basically, the flavor is that the rebels are so invested in the movement that when they are called to arms by a comrade, they show up right away. This doesn't make sense when its a rebel from another group makes that call to arms, as they have no connection to them. Its a flavor problem with rebels overall as there multiple groups of rebels from the get go, but you can at least excuse it if there are some rebels from the same group with the mechanic, as then it makes sense for the other rebels in the group to have the tag and be effected by the mechanic). I know Lin Sivvi was already on Dominaria during Prophecy, having taken Belbe's portal, but I don't think she brought any other rebels with her. Perhaps the Dominarian rebels are natives that she recruited to her cause. Otherwise, best to just forget Prophecy existed, you'll only lose Rhystic Study.
I'd only accept rebels returning if they were on Dominaria and they made a connection to the ones from Rath, as if they were really a continued tradition (thus clarifying their presence in Time Spiral), or as part of a supplemental product as throwbacks to the old sets. I'd still like a legendary W/B Rebel (and R/B Merc).
Mercs, otoh, have a very flavorful mechanic that is even more flavorful when it calls in mercs from other planes. Mercs go where the money is, it makes total sense for a Cateran merc to fetch a Rogue Skycaptain, he just flashed some coin and hired him.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I remember in limited, these guys were interesting. They're a hoser of the same variety as Deathmark, but they're also a Pearled Unicorn, so that's good. And if you were playing rebels, you could search for them. So they could even be maindecked in Standard.
In Commander? Well, also being a Pearled Unicorn just makes them feel like "two bad modes", but they might be a low-end addition a Sun Titan or Reveillark package.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Sadly not from it's namesake set. Kinda feels more like a blue ability but it makes sense with Red's aggression.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Whoa, is this a Dash superstar? There are a few of these random red enchantments that maybe want to help with immediate combat...but I rarely see any make the cut.
Goblin Battle Jester wasn't the worst card in draft. That doesn't mean this more efficient version will translate into a good constructed card, however.
I wish red still tapped things instead of "can't block until end of turn." It seems that white just gets the nearly strictly better version of the same thing.
Goblin Battle Jester wasn't the worst card in draft. That doesn't mean this more efficient version will translate into a good constructed card, however.
I wish red still tapped things instead of "can't block until end of turn." It seems that white just gets the nearly strictly better version of the same thing.
This is the kind of card that makes an otherwise rather bad tribal "Something fun to consider". Demon Tribal will, due to the lack of low-curve options and a near-total absence of tribal synergy, never really be a thing on more competitive tables, but in more laid back settings, it can work.
Sadly, even then this still costs 4 mana AND has you wait a turn to capitalize AND goes back to your hand and not the battlefield. Oh well.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
You could ignore the tutoring altogether and run it with Boris Devilboon and discard outlets.
If you're not doing that, you don't really need too many demons for this to be decent value. It would certainly be a lot better if it tutored on ETB though.
This is the kind of card that makes an otherwise rather bad tribal "Something fun to consider". Demon Tribal will, due to the lack of low-curve options and a near-total absence of tribal synergy, never really be a thing on more competitive tables, but in more laid back settings, it can work.
Sadly, even then this still costs 4 mana AND has you wait a turn to capitalize AND goes back to your hand and not the battlefield. Oh well.
Demon tribal is less about going tribal but more about themes of "sacrifice for greater power", which I can totally get behind for a monoblack deck. My now semi-retired Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath deck had a demon subtheme and small shadow creatures for Hatred kill.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
There has GOT to be some fun to be had with this. It's slow, but it tutors, and when you play the thing you tutored up, it recurs itself, generating card advantage. Even if it eats a kill spell, you can summon a demon and fetch it back.
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Decks:
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
There has GOT to be some fun to be had with this. It's slow, but it tutors, and when you play the thing you tutored up, it recurs itself, generating card advantage. Even if it eats a kill spell, you can summon a demon and fetch it back.
I think the card is fine if you have 3-4 demons but it's the kind of thing you put in your list thinking "that could be fun" and then cut when you realize you have too many other things you want in there.
Since you're in white anointed procession
Side note: I'm always tempted to build a color/hack deck that abuses cards like these by changing their text or the color of permanents/spells so I can target more. Blue is obviously needed, but the hate effects aren't deep enough in mono blue to make the obvious commander choice, Urza, viable. White always looks like the second color, but no commanders jive with the theme besides Urza. It would be janky even living the dream, but it seems like a fun experiment.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
But I guess they don't really support Rebel as a creature type outside of the tribal interactions; Whipcorder is the only one that isn't from Masques or Time Spiral blocks. I guess the problem is that there are a lot of story lines that involve some kind of rebellion, so if you wanted to give the "Rebel" type to every creature that could be described as a rebel you'd have tons and tones of them.
Mercenaries have done a little better with Goblin Turncoat, Doomed Necromancer, Sokenzan Renegade, as well as the aforementioned Hireling. There are also a few from pre-Masques.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I think it's because "Rebel" and "Mercenary" are so ill-defined in terms of how they fit, and it's difficult to justify giving a creature those attributes. Look at Lawbringer, for example. If you cover up its creature type, it could easily be a Cleric or a Monk, based on its name, illustration, and ability. It's only a Rebel because that was one of the mechanics in Masques Block. There's no good reason to bring back the creature type, because it's not distinct enough from other creature types.
It's the same with the Minion subtype. There's no reason Chainer is a "minion" and not, say, a shaman or wizard other than they wanted to focus on minions as the B creature class in Odyssey block.
From a flavor standpoint, Rebel made sense in the context of Masques block because all of them were united in rebellion against the Mercadian rulers. Being a rebel was their defining attribute, and was more important than whatever other class may have fit before. This flavor relies on the related mechanic though, as being ready to drop everything and answer the call (get tutored to play) is what really made them Rebels, that being part of a larger, united movement where their own identity was tied up in it. Kaladesh was the closest we've come to really seeing a movement that was similar (SoM was also close), but everyone was still fighting in that for their own reasons, with the goal being merely a change in leadership, while the Rebels in Masques were united in purpose and sought a total revolution. The goals of Gonti were different from Rashimi were different from Pia were different from Yahenni were different from Depala, and their strength came from how disparate their group was and how they were all defined by their different backgrounds and skill sets. The Mirrans were also defined by their differences, but in their case their disunity helped cause their downfall. The Ramosians, though, were defined by their unity and shared goals. The Timespiral rebels were a bit different: some were meant to represent the continuation of the Ramosian tradition, some were meant to represent an alternate timeline with black rebels, and some were flavor fails used to make more of the type.
Mercenaries are actually easier to justify. So long as the defining part of the creature is that they fight for money and are only loyal to whoever is paying them at the time, they can be a mercenary. Usually there needs to be a mechanical reason, but occasionally the concept is flavorful enough. Doomed Necromancer seems like a flavor fail.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The rebels in Nemesis were a bit of a stretch: They were defined by their opposition to Volrath, and united in their purpose, and they had the rebel mechanic present, but they weren't the only ones opposing Volrath. You could argue that the elves and the en-kor defined themselves by their backgrounds first and their rebellion second, while the rebels, regardless of background, defined themselves by their commitment to the cause first. Its still a stretch.
The Prophecy rebels were a full on flavor fail. The story didn't paint them as "rebels first", as it was a story about the Keldon invasion, not a story about a rebellion, let alone a unified one. There were also no cards with the rebel mechanic in the set, so there is not flavorful reason for them to "answer the call" when a rebel with the mechanic uses it (basically, the flavor is that the rebels are so invested in the movement that when they are called to arms by a comrade, they show up right away. This doesn't make sense when its a rebel from another group makes that call to arms, as they have no connection to them. Its a flavor problem with rebels overall as there multiple groups of rebels from the get go, but you can at least excuse it if there are some rebels from the same group with the mechanic, as then it makes sense for the other rebels in the group to have the tag and be effected by the mechanic). I know Lin Sivvi was already on Dominaria during Prophecy, having taken Belbe's portal, but I don't think she brought any other rebels with her. Perhaps the Dominarian rebels are natives that she recruited to her cause. Otherwise, best to just forget Prophecy existed, you'll only lose Rhystic Study.
I'd only accept rebels returning if they were on Dominaria and they made a connection to the ones from Rath, as if they were really a continued tradition (thus clarifying their presence in Time Spiral), or as part of a supplemental product as throwbacks to the old sets. I'd still like a legendary W/B Rebel (and R/B Merc).
Mercs, otoh, have a very flavorful mechanic that is even more flavorful when it calls in mercs from other planes. Mercs go where the money is, it makes total sense for a Cateran merc to fetch a Rogue Skycaptain, he just flashed some coin and hired him.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
In Commander? Well, also being a Pearled Unicorn just makes them feel like "two bad modes", but they might be a low-end addition a Sun Titan or Reveillark package.
On phasing:
Sadly not from it's namesake set. Kinda feels more like a blue ability but it makes sense with Red's aggression.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I wish red still tapped things instead of "can't block until end of turn." It seems that white just gets the nearly strictly better version of the same thing.
Or Village Bell-Ringer (common superior versions of stupid rares ftw?) thus why I said "nearly strictly better" haha
In truth it is bad, but at least in the above list it combos with Deathbringer Liege for an impromptu assassinate? Nope, I got nothing.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
This is the kind of card that makes an otherwise rather bad tribal "Something fun to consider". Demon Tribal will, due to the lack of low-curve options and a near-total absence of tribal synergy, never really be a thing on more competitive tables, but in more laid back settings, it can work.
Sadly, even then this still costs 4 mana AND has you wait a turn to capitalize AND goes back to your hand and not the battlefield. Oh well.
WBGGhave Sisters
BUG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Reanimator
BBBSheoldred, Whispering One Swamps-matter ramp
Standard
UR Drake
Pauper
GW Bogle
If you're not doing that, you don't really need too many demons for this to be decent value. It would certainly be a lot better if it tutored on ETB though.
Demon tribal is less about going tribal but more about themes of "sacrifice for greater power", which I can totally get behind for a monoblack deck. My now semi-retired Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath deck had a demon subtheme and small shadow creatures for Hatred kill.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
On phasing:
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw