Hinder's rarely used Memory Lapse mode at least means it isn't always a worse Dissipate. But it's still hard to fit in when you can basically play three Dissipates these days.
Hinder's Memory Lapse mode is really the only thing it has going for it. You can turn something like a Bolt into a winning clash for you. Which, of course, means you're playing clash. I guess if you're trying to do Approach of the Second Sun shenanigans? But you have Memory Lapse and Remand.
5/10 The definition of meh.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think there's been more than one occasion where Trickery was chosen because Tarmogoyf was in the deck. Not a big deal for commander, though. When was the last time you saw a Tarmogoyf there?
Hinder is a decent card, but usually by the time you get to Hinder your counterspell concentration is too damn high, and suddenly a Cavern of Souls randomly becomes a huge threat.
I wouldn't say strictly better - if I try to counter something with Faerie Trickery, my opponent can't stop me with their Faerie Trickery! And yes, this happened to me. Once.
As for Hinder, it's a counterspell that costs more than 2 mana. It would have to be something incredible to get me to run it. It's not, so I won't.
Also not strictly worse if you're running Faerie Harbinger! Which isn't totally unreasonable if you're already running good targets like Glen Elendra Archmage and Sower of Temptation. I used to run this package in a (non-combo) Teferi deck built around ETB effects, but I cut it at some point because Harbinger is kind of lame tutoring to top of library rather than hand. Oh well.
I think there's been more than one occasion where Trickery was chosen because Tarmogoyf was in the deck. Not a big deal for commander, though. When was the last time you saw a Tarmogoyf there?
Hinder is a decent card, but usually by the time you get to Hinder your counterspell concentration is too damn high, and suddenly a Cavern of Souls randomly becomes a huge threat.
As a relevant side discussion, what would you consider the right ratio of counterspells? For me, my policy is to run 0 counterspells, 7-10 counterspells (for most blue decks), or 20+ (for decks that actually get some sort of advantage from it). Counterspells are both single-target removal and require precise timing, so my usual feelings on overloading on them or running too many that are 3CMC+ apply. I find 7 is a magic number to have 'em when I need 'em, and I'd only run more than 20 if I was going full bore on Baral, Chief of Compliance control.
Considering that I prefer to run 7 or so, we have Counterspell and Arcane Denial as the auto-includes, and then usually some amount of Exiling counters. Swan Song, Remand, and Negate are usually in the conversation. Cryptic Command and Glen Elendra Archmage are on my shortlist of counters that cost more than 4 but are totally worthwhile.
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Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I still run Hinder and it's mentioned cousin Memory Lapse in Daxos of Meletis to potentially set up a juicy target to steal from my opponent with Daxos. It's fallen from grace, for sure, but it's still got some niche uses.
I still run Hinder and it's mentioned cousin Memory Lapse in Daxos of Meletis to potentially set up a juicy target to steal from my opponent with Daxos. It's fallen from grace, for sure, but it's still got some niche uses.
Good point. It can also assure you "hit" with Isperia the Inscrutable; obviously Remand or Venser, Shaper Savant is better but if you know they won't/can't use that spell next time they draw it it helps.
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Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Long, long time ago black did things with artifacts in more interesting ways. Interestingly enough this effect lasts until your next upkeep, which can have implications for various cards.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
When most folks see this, they think of slamming with animated Akroma's Memorials and certainly that is very good, but one thing this does for monoblack is give them artifact removal - animate a frustrating artifact, then Doomblade it back to hell. As noted unlike similar effects (Karn, Silver Golem or Sydri) this effect lasts a whole round, not just a turn, which can have implications with vigilance effects or with sacrifice effects or as a political tool. Honestly it feels like a bit of a hidden gem, one that I think should see more play.
One funny thing - at instant speed, you can use this to "animate" an equipment and cause it to fall off of a creature. This is extremely funny, possibly handy against folks abusing boots and swords, and is hands down the most Poltergeist mischief I can imagine doing in game. Great flavor boost several decades post-printing.
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Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I like it, it does goofy things. Also, I like the flavor of animating artifacts being that the ghost is throwing objects (that's the artifact attacking), and the bigger the object (by CMC), the more it hurts. Funny enough, this is one of the few cards that DOES NOT depict the subject in the art. The art shows two wizards having objects thrown at them, while the giest is off screen.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Typical case of "It's probably better in 60-card-formats well not really probably it just is" but it does have a semi-relevant creature type in Warrior so maybe Lovisa likes?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Typical case of "It's probably better in 60-card-formats well not really probably it just is" but it does have a semi-relevant creature type in Warrior so maybe Lovisa likes?
Lovisa is a good catch; this is probably the best 1-drop warrior in the deck if you want a 1-drop. Zurgo Bellstriker and Goblin Bushwacker are better cards but very unlikely to ever be cast on turn 1. This is a modest nuisance that becomes a major threat with Lovisa out or once you reload with Wheel of Fortune.
Outside of that, even in some sort of very deep R/x Wheel/cycling deck this is unlikely to ultimately make the cut in EDH.
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Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Could have a place in lower powered wheel heavy decks or particularly aggressive lists. One drops with some kind of evasion can only get so bad. I don't think I'd be interested all that often but could see it showing up in the right deck.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
I know I had been discussing with ISB on this earlier but I feel he could be cool in an aggro-reanimator build of Neheb, the Worthy where your focus id carrying swords in early and reanimating fatties.
Flameblade Adept's menace and discard trigger both make for a cool sword carrier that can get pumped out of no where
This could be used with a Life from the Loam loop, but, TBH, there are better things you can do with that.
Dat templating. (Clue: Cycling is discarding, either to draw something or to tutor something like a basic land or a forest or a sliver.) Yeah, I know, it's probably for new players, but still...
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
This could be used with a Life from the Loam loop, but, TBH, there are better things you can do with that.
Dat templating. (Clue: Cycling is discarding, either to draw something or to tutor something like a basic land or a forest or a sliver.) Yeah, I know, it's probably for new players, but still...
Yeah, can someone please give me a explanation as to why these cards say "if you cycle or discard"? Other than making it a little bit clearer for newer players, it could have just said "whenever you discard a card" and just leave out the cycling part, right? The cycling part is totally pointless unless someone can please enlighten me.
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"People are the worst. The worst thing about music is that people play it." - Mike Patton
I initially thought the same, but the book is being thrown (its opening from wind resistance, while if the giest was holding it the book would stay closed), and so close to the border that it at least appears to be coming from offscreen.
This Jackal, yeah, I agree, Lovisa makes this a 3/4 menace with upside, which is fairly aggro even in this format. It should also get that discard bonus fairly often in mono red, with red looting effects and wheels as red's main source of card draw. Doesn't make the cut in cycling though, despite being designed as a cycling enabler for limited.
Late thought on hinder: Your opponent can choose to allow their commander to hit the library, which they of course would never do if you tuck it to the bottom, but putting it on top might tempt them to if they are already paying tax. If they can't cast it again this turn anyway, they might take the risk and draw it next turn to cast it for less mana than if it hit the command zone, trading a draw for the mana savings, and even more tempted if they couldn't afford the tax next turn. Once its in the library, they can't send it to the command zone if forced to shuffle, so that's an end around tuck.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
This could be used with a Life from the Loam loop, but, TBH, there are better things you can do with that.
Dat templating. (Clue: Cycling is discarding, either to draw something or to tutor something like a basic land or a forest or a sliver.) Yeah, I know, it's probably for new players, but still...
Yeah, can someone please give me a explanation as to why these cards say "if you cycle or discard"? Other than making it a little bit clearer for newer players, it could have just said "whenever you discard a card" and just leave out the cycling part, right? The cycling part is totally pointless unless someone can please enlighten me.
They explained it in an article on their website. It is indeed partly to make it easier for newer players, and players who aren't as enfranchised, so as to avoid confusion as whether cycling counts as discarding. Originally, these cards only got the bonus from cycling as they were intended to be cycling enablers, but they were juiced a bit by letting them trigger off any discard to make them less parasitic (They now work with looting and allowed them to create a discard as cost sub theme in the set). They left the reference to cycling both to lessen confusion for new players (as they can look at the card and understand how it works even if they don't understand that cycling counts as discarding), as well as to be a signal during draft that these are cycling support cards and that cycling is a major theme that a deck that can be built around rather than just a "flow" mechanic like a cantrip. Its part of MARO's philosophy that nonfunctional text that makes things more clear is often a good thing. This is borne from the problem in Masques Block where there were a number of new mechanics with no official name, and many players thought that there were no new mechanics because there weren't keywords. Ability words are the biggest change brought about by this (ability words don't have any rules meaning, they are basically flavor text that signals a theme), but other smaller changes were also made, this being one of them.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Terra Stomper is currently in my Multani deck because it is EDH and I want to play stupid fatties. He's easily the worst card in my list however, and even when I briefly ran Xenogod he was just okay compared to fatties that made a more immediate impact like Deus of Calimity or Balefire Dragon. If you are looking for "Just Stats" he's reasonable especially in Devotion decks or Beast decks, but he's never going to be more than okay.
As a not-Commander aside, it always surprised me that this was a dollar rare in and never did anything in Standard. The power-to-toughness ratio is INSANE. Even Carnage Tyrant has mostly been a bust, which seems to prove that you have to be extremely undercosted to be a valuable card if "just stats" is your value (Tyrant is worth $$$ as a casual timmy card though). I'll be curious to see if Ghalta, Primal Hunger has what it takes to take off in Standard, Modern, and even our fair EDH as a "just stats" commander.
Depending on the particular Standard season, AFAIK this creature contended with Jund, Baneslayer Angel, M11 Titans, Caw-Go, Wolf-Run and Valakut. Creatures costing 6+ back then with no immediate board impact and no removal protection were capital A Awful.
EDIT No not Wolf-Run. Sorry. The rest are real tho.
This could be used with a Life from the Loam loop, but, TBH, there are better things you can do with that.
Dat templating. (Clue: Cycling is discarding, either to draw something or to tutor something like a basic land or a forest or a sliver.) Yeah, I know, it's probably for new players, but still...
Yeah, can someone please give me a explanation as to why these cards say "if you cycle or discard"? Other than making it a little bit clearer for newer players, it could have just said "whenever you discard a card" and just leave out the cycling part, right? The cycling part is totally pointless unless someone can please enlighten me.
They explained it in an article on their website. It is indeed partly to make it easier for newer players, and players who aren't as enfranchised, so as to avoid confusion as whether cycling counts as discarding. Originally, these cards only got the bonus from cycling as they were intended to be cycling enablers, but they were juiced a bit by letting them trigger off any discard to make them less parasitic (They now work with looting and allowed them to create a discard as cost sub theme in the set). They left the reference to cycling both to lessen confusion for new players (as they can look at the card and understand how it works even if they don't understand that cycling counts as discarding), as well as to be a signal during draft that these are cycling support cards and that cycling is a major theme that a deck that can be built around rather than just a "flow" mechanic like a cantrip. Its part of MARO's philosophy that nonfunctional text that makes things more clear is often a good thing. This is borne from the problem in Masques Block where there were a number of new mechanics with no official name, and many players thought that there were no new mechanics because there weren't keywords. Ability words are the biggest change brought about by this (ability words don't have any rules meaning, they are basically flavor text that signals a theme), but other smaller changes were also made, this being one of them.
Thank you for the clear explanation, it still baffles me why they would think a new player wouldn't be able to understand discarding a card does an effect. That is one of the simpliest terms in any card/board game ever for anyone to understand. Adding cycling as a keyword causes more confusion to new players and long time experienced players such as myself. I disagree with Rosewater's design philosophies such as this, because adding cycling seems very extraneous, redundant and borderline conflicts with the rules in the strictest sense.
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"People are the worst. The worst thing about music is that people play it." - Mike Patton
This could be used with a Life from the Loam loop, but, TBH, there are better things you can do with that.
Dat templating. (Clue: Cycling is discarding, either to draw something or to tutor something like a basic land or a forest or a sliver.) Yeah, I know, it's probably for new players, but still...
Yeah, can someone please give me a explanation as to why these cards say "if you cycle or discard"? Other than making it a little bit clearer for newer players, it could have just said "whenever you discard a card" and just leave out the cycling part, right? The cycling part is totally pointless unless someone can please enlighten me.
They explained it in an article on their website. It is indeed partly to make it easier for newer players, and players who aren't as enfranchised, so as to avoid confusion as whether cycling counts as discarding. Originally, these cards only got the bonus from cycling as they were intended to be cycling enablers, but they were juiced a bit by letting them trigger off any discard to make them less parasitic (They now work with looting and allowed them to create a discard as cost sub theme in the set). They left the reference to cycling both to lessen confusion for new players (as they can look at the card and understand how it works even if they don't understand that cycling counts as discarding), as well as to be a signal during draft that these are cycling support cards and that cycling is a major theme that a deck that can be built around rather than just a "flow" mechanic like a cantrip. Its part of MARO's philosophy that nonfunctional text that makes things more clear is often a good thing. This is borne from the problem in Masques Block where there were a number of new mechanics with no official name, and many players thought that there were no new mechanics because there weren't keywords. Ability words are the biggest change brought about by this (ability words don't have any rules meaning, they are basically flavor text that signals a theme), but other smaller changes were also made, this being one of them.
Thank you for the clear explanation, it still baffles me why they would think a new player wouldn't be able to understand discarding a card does an effect. That is one of the simpliest terms in any card/board game ever for anyone to understand. Adding cycling as a keyword causes more confusion to new players and long time experienced players such as myself. I disagree with Rosewater's design philosophies such as this, because adding cycling seems very extraneous, redundant and borderline conflicts with the rules in the strictest sense.
Some folks might see Cycling as an activated ability and thus kind of alike "casting" a spell, which also isn't discarded. Then there's folks who don't speak English natively. So yeah.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
This could be used with a Life from the Loam loop, but, TBH, there are better things you can do with that.
Dat templating. (Clue: Cycling is discarding, either to draw something or to tutor something like a basic land or a forest or a sliver.) Yeah, I know, it's probably for new players, but still...
Yeah, can someone please give me a explanation as to why these cards say "if you cycle or discard"? Other than making it a little bit clearer for newer players, it could have just said "whenever you discard a card" and just leave out the cycling part, right? The cycling part is totally pointless unless someone can please enlighten me.
They explained it in an article on their website. It is indeed partly to make it easier for newer players, and players who aren't as enfranchised, so as to avoid confusion as whether cycling counts as discarding. Originally, these cards only got the bonus from cycling as they were intended to be cycling enablers, but they were juiced a bit by letting them trigger off any discard to make them less parasitic (They now work with looting and allowed them to create a discard as cost sub theme in the set). They left the reference to cycling both to lessen confusion for new players (as they can look at the card and understand how it works even if they don't understand that cycling counts as discarding), as well as to be a signal during draft that these are cycling support cards and that cycling is a major theme that a deck that can be built around rather than just a "flow" mechanic like a cantrip. Its part of MARO's philosophy that nonfunctional text that makes things more clear is often a good thing. This is borne from the problem in Masques Block where there were a number of new mechanics with no official name, and many players thought that there were no new mechanics because there weren't keywords. Ability words are the biggest change brought about by this (ability words don't have any rules meaning, they are basically flavor text that signals a theme), but other smaller changes were also made, this being one of them.
Thank you for the clear explanation, it still baffles me why they would think a new player wouldn't be able to understand discarding a card does an effect. That is one of the simpliest terms in any card/board game ever for anyone to understand. Adding cycling as a keyword causes more confusion to new players and long time experienced players such as myself. I disagree with Rosewater's design philosophies such as this, because adding cycling seems very extraneous, redundant and borderline conflicts with the rules in the strictest sense.
Some folks might see Cycling as an activated ability and thus kind of alike "casting" a spell, which also isn't discarded. Then there's folks who don't speak English natively. So yeah.
It also apparently arose during playtesting when they bring in people from other departments to test out cards. These people aren't as deep into the game, so they use them to approximate how a newer player sees things. It turns out that people tend to respond to cycling as if it is a spell. There's also been confusion among newer players regarding cycling cards that do something when cycled, as sometimes people try to counter the triggered ability. That's a bit easier to catch as its interactive and people can say no that isn't a spell so you can't counter it, but these cycling support cards are less interactive as they trigger off of what the player who controls them is doing, so there is more a chance of missed triggers.
It does actually create a small techy difference between just triggering off discard BTW. If there is an effect that creates a replacement effect for discard, such as having you put the card into your library or exiling it directly from your hand rather than discarding, then they will still trigger off of cycling because it will still count as cycling even if the discard is replaced with another effect, while discard effects that aren't cycling would be replaced and not trigger it. There are a few older cards I believe that replace discarding with putting the card on top of your library I believe.
Edit: those cards actually have you discard to a zone other than a graveyard. Still, this may come up in the future if a card is ever printed that outright replaces the discard effect.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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Well, Faerie Trickery is strictly worse than Dissipate (because of the "non-Faerie" clause), and Void Shatter is a wash: It can't get Pyroblasted and doesn't cost less due to Sapphire Medallion.
Hinder's Memory Lapse mode is really the only thing it has going for it. You can turn something like a Bolt into a winning clash for you. Which, of course, means you're playing clash. I guess if you're trying to do Approach of the Second Sun shenanigans? But you have Memory Lapse and Remand.
5/10 The definition of meh.
On phasing:
I think there's been more than one occasion where Trickery was chosen because Tarmogoyf was in the deck. Not a big deal for commander, though. When was the last time you saw a Tarmogoyf there?
Hinder is a decent card, but usually by the time you get to Hinder your counterspell concentration is too damn high, and suddenly a Cavern of Souls randomly becomes a huge threat.
I wouldn't say strictly better - if I try to counter something with Faerie Trickery, my opponent can't stop me with their Faerie Trickery! And yes, this happened to me. Once.
As for Hinder, it's a counterspell that costs more than 2 mana. It would have to be something incredible to get me to run it. It's not, so I won't.
As a relevant side discussion, what would you consider the right ratio of counterspells? For me, my policy is to run 0 counterspells, 7-10 counterspells (for most blue decks), or 20+ (for decks that actually get some sort of advantage from it). Counterspells are both single-target removal and require precise timing, so my usual feelings on overloading on them or running too many that are 3CMC+ apply. I find 7 is a magic number to have 'em when I need 'em, and I'd only run more than 20 if I was going full bore on Baral, Chief of Compliance control.
Considering that I prefer to run 7 or so, we have Counterspell and Arcane Denial as the auto-includes, and then usually some amount of Exiling counters. Swan Song, Remand, and Negate are usually in the conversation. Cryptic Command and Glen Elendra Archmage are on my shortlist of counters that cost more than 4 but are totally worthwhile.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Good point. It can also assure you "hit" with Isperia the Inscrutable; obviously Remand or Venser, Shaper Savant is better but if you know they won't/can't use that spell next time they draw it it helps.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Long, long time ago black did things with artifacts in more interesting ways. Interestingly enough this effect lasts until your next upkeep, which can have implications for various cards.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
When most folks see this, they think of slamming with animated Akroma's Memorials and certainly that is very good, but one thing this does for monoblack is give them artifact removal - animate a frustrating artifact, then Doomblade it back to hell. As noted unlike similar effects (Karn, Silver Golem or Sydri) this effect lasts a whole round, not just a turn, which can have implications with vigilance effects or with sacrifice effects or as a political tool. Honestly it feels like a bit of a hidden gem, one that I think should see more play.
One funny thing - at instant speed, you can use this to "animate" an equipment and cause it to fall off of a creature. This is extremely funny, possibly handy against folks abusing boots and swords, and is hands down the most Poltergeist mischief I can imagine doing in game. Great flavor boost several decades post-printing.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Chrome Mox, Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Paradise Mantle, Spellbook, Zuran Orb
as well as
Darksteel Citadel, Ancient Den, Great Furnace, Seat of the Synod, Tree of Tales and Vault of Whispers
be gone!
Those plus Mycosynth Lattice land destruction stuff. But Karn, Silver Golem is better at that i guess.
The ability is nice to have. Back in those days, Magic didn't know what a color pie was, so black doing things like animating artifacts made sense.
The other six black cards in Antiquities were Artifact Possession, Gate to Phyrexia, Haunting Wind, Phyrexian Gremlins, Priest of Yawgmoth, and Yawgmoth Demon. I figure Artifact Possession, Haunting Winds, and Yawgmoth Demon are still "somewhat black", though Artifact Possession and Haunting Winds would probably have the player straight up lose life rather than take damage.
On phasing:
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I like the 5th Edition art of this.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Typical case of "It's probably better in 60-card-formats well not really probably it just is" but it does have a semi-relevant creature type in Warrior so maybe Lovisa likes?
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Lovisa is a good catch; this is probably the best 1-drop warrior in the deck if you want a 1-drop. Zurgo Bellstriker and Goblin Bushwacker are better cards but very unlikely to ever be cast on turn 1. This is a modest nuisance that becomes a major threat with Lovisa out or once you reload with Wheel of Fortune.
Outside of that, even in some sort of very deep R/x Wheel/cycling deck this is unlikely to ultimately make the cut in EDH.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Flameblade Adept's menace and discard trigger both make for a cool sword carrier that can get pumped out of no where
Dat templating. (Clue: Cycling is discarding, either to draw something or to tutor something like a basic land or a forest or a sliver.) Yeah, I know, it's probably for new players, but still...
On phasing:
Yeah, can someone please give me a explanation as to why these cards say "if you cycle or discard"? Other than making it a little bit clearer for newer players, it could have just said "whenever you discard a card" and just leave out the cycling part, right? The cycling part is totally pointless unless someone can please enlighten me.
I initially thought the same, but the book is being thrown (its opening from wind resistance, while if the giest was holding it the book would stay closed), and so close to the border that it at least appears to be coming from offscreen.
This Jackal, yeah, I agree, Lovisa makes this a 3/4 menace with upside, which is fairly aggro even in this format. It should also get that discard bonus fairly often in mono red, with red looting effects and wheels as red's main source of card draw. Doesn't make the cut in cycling though, despite being designed as a cycling enabler for limited.
Late thought on hinder: Your opponent can choose to allow their commander to hit the library, which they of course would never do if you tuck it to the bottom, but putting it on top might tempt them to if they are already paying tax. If they can't cast it again this turn anyway, they might take the risk and draw it next turn to cast it for less mana than if it hit the command zone, trading a draw for the mana savings, and even more tempted if they couldn't afford the tax next turn. Once its in the library, they can't send it to the command zone if forced to shuffle, so that's an end around tuck.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
They explained it in an article on their website. It is indeed partly to make it easier for newer players, and players who aren't as enfranchised, so as to avoid confusion as whether cycling counts as discarding. Originally, these cards only got the bonus from cycling as they were intended to be cycling enablers, but they were juiced a bit by letting them trigger off any discard to make them less parasitic (They now work with looting and allowed them to create a discard as cost sub theme in the set). They left the reference to cycling both to lessen confusion for new players (as they can look at the card and understand how it works even if they don't understand that cycling counts as discarding), as well as to be a signal during draft that these are cycling support cards and that cycling is a major theme that a deck that can be built around rather than just a "flow" mechanic like a cantrip. Its part of MARO's philosophy that nonfunctional text that makes things more clear is often a good thing. This is borne from the problem in Masques Block where there were a number of new mechanics with no official name, and many players thought that there were no new mechanics because there weren't keywords. Ability words are the biggest change brought about by this (ability words don't have any rules meaning, they are basically flavor text that signals a theme), but other smaller changes were also made, this being one of them.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Depending on the particular Standard season, AFAIK this creature contended with Jund, Baneslayer Angel, M11 Titans, Caw-Go,
Wolf-Runand Valakut. Creatures costing 6+ back then with no immediate board impact and no removal protection were capital A Awful.EDIT No not Wolf-Run. Sorry. The rest are real tho.
Thank you for the clear explanation, it still baffles me why they would think a new player wouldn't be able to understand discarding a card does an effect. That is one of the simpliest terms in any card/board game ever for anyone to understand. Adding cycling as a keyword causes more confusion to new players and long time experienced players such as myself. I disagree with Rosewater's design philosophies such as this, because adding cycling seems very extraneous, redundant and borderline conflicts with the rules in the strictest sense.
Some folks might see Cycling as an activated ability and thus kind of alike "casting" a spell, which also isn't discarded. Then there's folks who don't speak English natively. So yeah.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It also apparently arose during playtesting when they bring in people from other departments to test out cards. These people aren't as deep into the game, so they use them to approximate how a newer player sees things. It turns out that people tend to respond to cycling as if it is a spell. There's also been confusion among newer players regarding cycling cards that do something when cycled, as sometimes people try to counter the triggered ability. That's a bit easier to catch as its interactive and people can say no that isn't a spell so you can't counter it, but these cycling support cards are less interactive as they trigger off of what the player who controls them is doing, so there is more a chance of missed triggers.
It does actually create a small techy difference between just triggering off discard BTW. If there is an effect that creates a replacement effect for discard, such as having you put the card into your library or exiling it directly from your hand rather than discarding, then they will still trigger off of cycling because it will still count as cycling even if the discard is replaced with another effect, while discard effects that aren't cycling would be replaced and not trigger it. There are a few older cards I believe that replace discarding with putting the card on top of your library I believe.
Edit: those cards actually have you discard to a zone other than a graveyard. Still, this may come up in the future if a card is ever printed that outright replaces the discard effect.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!