Are you not counting things like Molten Psyche as a wheel effect because it shuffles rather than discards? I guess there is a difference, but I've always lumped them together (cards out, cards in).
As for the card, I can definitely see it finding use in a few decks that always seem to run out of cards in hand. I still need to find a copy to try in Kaalia.
I imagine he's not counting Molten Psyche because it's always card disadvantage, which makes it very different from other wheels.
Oddly, half the wheels can be done on your opponent's turn. I say "oddly" because this always struck me as one of those "sorcery-only" abilities, like land destruction or discard or extra turns.
5/10 Yeah, it costs six mana to activate, but I'm probably only using that ability late-game anyway.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Pretty good in scion of the ur-dragon, basically a wheel that can be tutored. Use his ability at the end of somebody's turn to throw it in the graveyard. Then use it whenever is needed, probably nobody will remember it, preferably when your hand is empty and the end of your opponenet's end step.
An instant Wheel with no counter, except graveyard hate, though even graveyard hate can't stop it unless you don't have the mana to activate it.
Its six mana activation is quite pricey, but i think it is fine in edh when you are out of cards, and instant speed makes it even better, have more options when to activate it.
Definitely more viable than Dream Pillager we got last year.....
Are you not counting things like Molten Psyche as a wheel effect because it shuffles rather than discards? I guess there is a difference, but I've always lumped them together (cards out, cards in).
As for the card, I can definitely see it finding use in a few decks that always seem to run out of cards in hand. I still need to find a copy to try in Kaalia.
True Wheels draw 7. There are many other cards that only draw based on the number discarded or shuffled, or some other tweak like everyone draws cards equal to the greatest number of cards discarded by a player, or everyone draws to a smaller number, like 3 or 4. It ends up being functionally rather different, as a Molten Psyche pseudo wheel only gets you back what you discarded, so its more like red looting for your whole hand, while a real Wheel will draw you 7 no matter what you discard, so you can play it when its the last card in your hand to draw 7. This means that real Wheels have value outside of stuff like Nekusar that use effects that key off of draws and discards, and can be ran in decks that just want to play their hand out fast and restock. That is, of course, the reason the OG Wheel was so powerful, because you'd drop you moxen, land, and burn spells then play Wheel when it was the last card in your hand and draw 7 while your opponent just cycles their hand or nets 1 or 2 cards.
And frankly, the dragon is good in that context. He wheels for 6, but its a true wheel and can't be countered save by a few effects that hit activated abilities. I'd rather pay 6 for an essentially uncounterable wheel than 5 for Reforge the Soul. Yes, Reforge can cost 2, but it requires more set up and when you do draw it as the first card for the turn you have to be ready to fire it off. The dragon also has the upside of being a 5/5 flyer in a pinch. Not flashy, but everyone has been in games where one beefy flier is all they need to close it out. Oh, and of course it needs to be discarded to be used, but that also means hey, you can discard it to other wheels or loot effects or as a cost, or you can just play the dragon and attack/block with it until it dies, or sac it for value.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Are you not counting things like Molten Psyche as a wheel effect because it shuffles rather than discards? I guess there is a difference, but I've always lumped them together (cards out, cards in).
I suspect he meant "actual wheels" as in "the same effect on resolution as Wheel of Fortune": everybody discards and draws 7.
My Kaalia of the Vast deck is always looking for some extra gas, and this guy does his job as a free 5/5 flier from Kaalia and then fuels the deck quite capably later. He's a poor substitute for the banned Griselbrand and his Dragon Mage brother is typically more effective, but on-tribe effects like this are still gold.
Yeah, I do specify a Wheel effect as "Everyone discards, then draws 7." Cards like Molten Psyche are interesting riffs on them but as they don't give you a true refill, they're not a wheel. They're more in the vein of Winds of Change - which is card disadvantage.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I like him very much. The only thing I hate about a deck full of wheels is drawing more than one at a time. This guy is useful after the other wheels happen. Failing that, a 5/5 flier for 6 isn't the worst thing in edh. I've certainly played worse cards. I know I have more than one deck using him, from the Ydris precon he came in to the archangel avacyn reanimator build that wanted just one more draw effect from the graveyard.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Combat tricks are the most recent thing that I'm playing around with in the format, so I've picked up a bunch recently. This is not one of them. I don't think this places highly enough to even be considered in most decks, even the budget ones. I'd run the classic Giant Growth before this one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
And yes, I know Stonewood Invocation and Giant Growth should be better than one mode of this, but there's still no excuse for how much better they are.
I do like how they put the Coalition angel on the wurm's new scales, though. They did that kind of thing a lot on Invasion block art.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
That wurm's giving an "Ayy girl, waddup" wink. I wish we got to learn more about the adventures of Skeevy Pete, the Wurm that hangs out in snakes and sells heroin.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
At least it's versatile? I like any one-mana combat trick, especially one that can be a finisher, but Explosive Growth is expensive for what it does, mostly because they overcosted almost every kicker effect in Invasion block.
Huh, same set.
Interesting tech in a meta where Big Fatties is the norm, laughs in the face of Voltron, doesn't do so hot against token swarms. A card every defensive deck should probably at least consider.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Definitely a hidden gem. Can be used as a "build-your-own-Glacial Chasm" by adding additional damage prevention cards like Orbs of Warding, Lashknife Barrier or the best ever, Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. At least if my understanding of how all these damage replacement and damage prevention effects interact is correct.
Definitely a hidden gem. Can be used as a "build-your-own-Glacial Chasm" by adding additional damage prevention cards like Orbs of Warding, Lashknife Barrier or the best ever, Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. At least if my understanding of how all these damage replacement and damage prevention effects interact is correct.
Obviously on its own this is worthless against tokens or Pestilence/Pyrohemia, but hobbles Voltron, infect, and "go big" critters, especially Deus of Calamity, as well as the bigger red removal (Blasphemous Act, Goblin Grenade, any x-cost red removal spell). But as has been said, this is a "build your own Glacial Chasm".
7/10 Obviously, Forcefield eats this for breakfast, but this is a good budget version.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Unless you're using it to increase your Pestilence damages from 1 to 2
There was once a school of thought in my small group of magic playing friends that Divine Presence and Callous Giant was a worthy combo. We were really bad. Even Ogre Enforcer (slightly better) is really bad for this kind of thing.
Its fun to watch someone pillow fort up and then someone else casually toss an Everlasting Torment onto the board
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I imagine he's not counting Molten Psyche because it's always card disadvantage, which makes it very different from other wheels.
Oddly, half the wheels can be done on your opponent's turn. I say "oddly" because this always struck me as one of those "sorcery-only" abilities, like land destruction or discard or extra turns.
5/10 Yeah, it costs six mana to activate, but I'm probably only using that ability late-game anyway.
On phasing:
An instant Wheel with no counter, except graveyard hate, though even graveyard hate can't stop it unless you don't have the mana to activate it.
Its six mana activation is quite pricey, but i think it is fine in edh when you are out of cards, and instant speed makes it even better, have more options when to activate it.
Definitely more viable than Dream Pillager we got last year.....
True Wheels draw 7. There are many other cards that only draw based on the number discarded or shuffled, or some other tweak like everyone draws cards equal to the greatest number of cards discarded by a player, or everyone draws to a smaller number, like 3 or 4. It ends up being functionally rather different, as a Molten Psyche pseudo wheel only gets you back what you discarded, so its more like red looting for your whole hand, while a real Wheel will draw you 7 no matter what you discard, so you can play it when its the last card in your hand to draw 7. This means that real Wheels have value outside of stuff like Nekusar that use effects that key off of draws and discards, and can be ran in decks that just want to play their hand out fast and restock. That is, of course, the reason the OG Wheel was so powerful, because you'd drop you moxen, land, and burn spells then play Wheel when it was the last card in your hand and draw 7 while your opponent just cycles their hand or nets 1 or 2 cards.
And frankly, the dragon is good in that context. He wheels for 6, but its a true wheel and can't be countered save by a few effects that hit activated abilities. I'd rather pay 6 for an essentially uncounterable wheel than 5 for Reforge the Soul. Yes, Reforge can cost 2, but it requires more set up and when you do draw it as the first card for the turn you have to be ready to fire it off. The dragon also has the upside of being a 5/5 flyer in a pinch. Not flashy, but everyone has been in games where one beefy flier is all they need to close it out. Oh, and of course it needs to be discarded to be used, but that also means hey, you can discard it to other wheels or loot effects or as a cost, or you can just play the dragon and attack/block with it until it dies, or sac it for value.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
A prime candidate for Derpface.dec.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
There's maybe 10 better giant growths than this but I'll just say Groundswell and Might of Old Krosa make this look real bad. I mean Stonewood Invocation is 1 less ffs.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
And then you get the modal ones like Cankerous Thirst, Simic Charm, Selesnya Charm, and Darigaaz's Charm.
And yes, I know Stonewood Invocation and Giant Growth should be better than one mode of this, but there's still no excuse for how much better they are.
I do like how they put the Coalition angel on the wurm's new scales, though. They did that kind of thing a lot on Invasion block art.
On phasing:
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Marath, Will of the Wild
Friendly Kess Twin Combo
Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
UGR Wanderer
UGB Tasigur Control
URB Jeleva Storm
RW Gisela Control
The art is gloriously stupid, though.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Huh, same set.
Interesting tech in a meta where Big Fatties is the norm, laughs in the face of Voltron, doesn't do so hot against token swarms. A card every defensive deck should probably at least consider.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Obviously on its own this is worthless against tokens or Pestilence/Pyrohemia, but hobbles Voltron, infect, and "go big" critters, especially Deus of Calamity, as well as the bigger red removal (Blasphemous Act, Goblin Grenade, any x-cost red removal spell). But as has been said, this is a "build your own Glacial Chasm".
7/10 Obviously, Forcefield eats this for breakfast, but this is a good budget version.
On phasing:
Unless you're using it to increase your Pestilence damages from 1 to 2
There was once a school of thought in my small group of magic playing friends that Divine Presence and Callous Giant was a worthy combo. We were really bad. Even Ogre Enforcer (slightly better) is really bad for this kind of thing.
Its fun to watch someone pillow fort up and then someone else casually toss an Everlasting Torment onto the board