I stopped playing such decks because it caused my playgroup a lot of ire. Then, last night, there was a new kid in the shop who used pretty much the exact same style of deck with Kruphix. Ironically, I had no ideas how to handle it, because my deck, like his, was meant to be: 1) Get creatures into play for infinite combos, 2) Counters every threat, 3) Bounces every threat that's not countered, 4) Get them back with Eternal Witness and other comes into play effect.
Fortunately, I am making a mono-red deck and potentially a Boros deck, with cards like Torpor Orb, Grand Abolisher, Price of Glory, and Boseiju, Who Shelters All, which don't affect my deck. However, how do I handle global bounce cards like (repeated) Cyclonic Rift? If I use Akroma, Angel of Fury I can probably end the game early, but I don't want to make my deck purely anti-control either, I just want strategies that can provide a fighting chance when I'm facing such a deck again.
Honestly, it's an uphill battle playing Boros ( arguably the worst color pair ) against Simic ( arguably the best color pair ). Against combo decks my favorite are black's library exile pair of Sadistic Sacrament and Praetor's Grap, which unfortunately don't come in those colors.
. Against combo decks my favorite are black's library exile pair of Sadistic Sacrament and Praetor's Grap, which unfortunately don't come in those colors.
If you really need to cut combos you can use jester's cap in any deck.
stranglehold can help against ramp, or extra turns if its that kind of blue deck.
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Yeah, the irony I found about mono-red and Boros is that, mono-red is actually stronger? I'm not sure if that has something to do with the generals available for both categories. I could be very wrong, of course.
I don't mind playing mono-black either, it was the theme of my previous deck before I broke it down for Daxos, but Jester's Cap is definitely easier since it's an artifact. Secretly, I like mono-red's bluntness more, maybe a BR deck is possible?
Yeah, the irony I found about mono-red and Boros is that, mono-red is actually stronger? I'm not sure if that has something to do with the generals available for both categories. I could be very wrong, of course.
My sense is that Boros is the weakest color configuration. Red and white are the weakest individual colors, but there are strong strategies within those colors (eg: Feldon reanimator, Daretti scrap) and cards that heavily reward a mono color build (eg: Emeria, the Sky Ruin, Caged Sun). Boros seems to really get the shaft when it comes to commanders as well. They almost printed a powerful one in C16, but it cares about big creatures instead of equipment for some reason.
Just play dudes and hit them with said dudes. I always hated blue/green because it was so weak to aggro. Decks like Thrun, Rafiq, Kaalia, and even Doran were such a huge pain. Yes there is always counterplay but if the aggro player got a good start and went for you first then it's probably game over.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
1. Aggro them out they are typically slow and ramp heavy. Once I had someone just casting all the ramp in the world.. I played luminac ascension turn 2 and killed him before his first threat.
2. Clones, bribery, preator's grasp, treaten etc. jester's cap is similar but taking thier threats for yourself is better. You basically get what they have but for cheaper, then counter or remove thier threat.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Notice how those decks don't contain W or B.
Removal that is not bounce or counter is hard for them to have for nonartifact/enchantments and so you can benefit from that.
Also, uncounterable spells like Supreme Verdict can end up wrecking a U/G strategy. Hosing their graveyard after that with something like Tormod's Crypt can shut down a deck.
Sometimes, you have to go full anticontrol to handle them due to the advantage that U/G gets from ramp+draw+other benefits the colors provide. There's a few other enchantments that work for you in this as well, like Stranglehold and War's Toll.
I tend to run U/X decks, though usually nothing with Green. There's tools out there to handle that, like Vexing Shusher and other cards that get past the grip of stack-controlling spells. If you can get threatening permanents out, you already won half the battle.
Notice how those decks don't contain W or B.
Removal that is not bounce or counter is hard for them to have for nonartifact/enchantments and so you can benefit from that.
Also, uncounterable spells like Supreme Verdict can end up wrecking a U/G strategy. Hosing their graveyard after that with something like Tormod's Crypt can shut down a deck.
Sometimes, you have to go full anticontrol to handle them due to the advantage that U/G gets from ramp+draw+other benefits the colors provide. There's a few other enchantments that work for you in this as well, like Stranglehold and War's Toll.
I tend to run U/X decks, though usually nothing with Green. There's tools out there to handle that, like Vexing Shusher and other cards that get past the grip of stack-controlling spells. If you can get threatening permanents out, you already won half the battle.
Would running multiple anti-control cards make it weaker against other deck types? It's probably most natural in mono-red because that's the color's innate strength.
Run answers, like removals and counterspells. Have a solid and resilient gameplan too, so your deck isnt reliant on resolving one particular spell.
I always run answers in my deck, roughly 1/3 of the nonland cards in my decks are answers, but facing U/G has been difficult because it can counter, destroy, or bounce those answers. And if I replace answers in my deck to go against control, not only it feels less safe against other decks, it's also look 'obvious'. (Of course, I can explain it by saying, "It's like black discard.")
I ran Combust to good effect when Prophet of Kruphix was in most every deck at my table, every single game. 5 damage kills a surprising amount of creatures.
Humility and Rule of Law can slow everyone to RW speed. Just be ready to be targeted.
Torpor Orb and Rest in Peace can hammer many decks, not just UG. Resolving them and surviving the table's ire is the trick.
Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast and Richochet Trap are all really good answers to their counter spells. Combust and Rending Volley are both uncounterable answers to their creatures, with the added benefit of being surprisingly versatile removal spells against a variety of decks. Stranglehold can stop their extra turns (if their using them) and stops them from tutoring their combos.
If you wanted to add blue for whatever reason, Mana Breach and Overburden both hose U/G decks really well. Rampant Growth causes them to bounce a land to put a land in play, for example. I use both in my Patron of the Moon deck, though such a strategy might not be applicable here.
Would running multiple anti-control cards make it weaker against other deck types? It's probably most natural in mono-red because that's the color's innate strength.
War's Toll and similar work against other decks too; 90% of the time (math is not accurate) they don't want to attack with all of their creatures, like the utility creatures. Also, people like leaving mana open to respond, even if it's only something like Krosan Grip in R/G. Cards like Fumiko the Lowblood are an example of what hoses utility creatures with static abilities or nontap ones.
Blue is a relevant enough color to want to deal with for noncontrol decks; just figure out what they run in your meta and respond in kind, and they will do the same, and so on and so forth in the circle of life...deckbuilding...whatever.
Judging from the suggestions thus far, dealing with UG basically means dealing with blue I suppose it's righteous, consider how abusive blue can be with green mana.
After some testing, I find it's easier to go mono-red in this raid-and-pillage scheme than Boros, using Akroma (who is also a viable voltron commander), although white's artifact/LD cards are also tempting. Which Boros commander would you recommend for this style of play?
Tajic, Blade of the Legion. If you can land a hit w/ Tajic + Worldslayer, you're on top of everyone. I know this guy who had an amazingly funny mass land destruction deck w/ Tajic at the helm. It was brutal, but it was fun to play against, as, if you let Tajic control the board, it was your own fault.
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A giant dork. Who likes to eat with forks. Never used a spork.
Decks: Casual R Burn R
EDH R Godo Voltron R RUG ETB Overload RUG BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW GW Spirits!!! GW RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
I have found that a lot of dealing with U/G/X decks is often knowing when and what to get rid of. Deadeye Navigator and Prophet of Kruphix tend to be two of the most heinous offenders and knowing to respond to the soulbond trigger on Deadeye Navigator tends to be pretty helpful. Hand shredding cards tend to be another viable option. A lot of people don't play a lot of discard effects because they tend to be single target but sometimes crippling one player is enough. Identity Crisis is a personal favorite of mine that tends to cripple anyone it resolves against. Mind Twist is also pretty good. If you are not concerned with budget Chains of Mephistopheles can be backbreaking to heavy card draw strategies. Mana denial cards like Contamination can also be brutal but they are often frowned upon in many playgroups and may oppress the other players more than you would like. Another card that is pretty helpful against counterspells is Defense Grid.
I've found that, more than other combinations like Jund, U/G/x builds are often reliant upon a few key cards like Prophet and DeN for their shenanigans and when those are removed it becomes significantly easier to deal with.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
I think stuff like Torpor Orb and Co. will do the job. I would also like to promote my all time favorite card: Humility. That should put a wrench in his wheels.
Combat their unfairness with true unfairness like land destruction and stax.
Yup. Winter Orb, Armageddon, Cataclysm them. Humility/Torpor Orb/Hushwing Gryff them. U/G is good at killing enchantments/artifacts, but we U/G players prefer these kinds of effects on creatures because they're easier to abuse. Even being aware of that, I may have only four spells that can deal with these kinds of effects.
Suppression Field drives my playgroup up the wall, but may not be as strong if you're relying on these kinds of effects for your mana/draw. Aven Mindcensor does similar stuff to fetches, and should shut down their combos to boot since they won't be able to tutor for them. Spirit of the Labyrinth is also a great silver bullet here.
All of these are just hate strats though. None of them will actually kill an opponent, and several of them will make the table hate you even as you're preventing the table big bad from killing everyone. I've never really arrived at a consistent method of ending the game. Even the best ones I can think of take several turns to kill three other people.
Storm cauldron can be brutal vs mana hungry decks. Red's many chaos enchantments can work well also. Possibility storm can come back to bite you, but it makes every counterspell a gamble. Defense grid is a good punisher for counter heavy decks.
As I told someone else, I think GW with Gaddock Teeg works better to hate on draw/go control, but Boros has access to all the white Bears, so I could see it. Red has several chaos enchantments that can do work, as well as copy spells(fork, reverberate, dual caster Mage). There's also the red x spell with split second that I can't think of.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
Combat their unfairness with true unfairness like land destruction and stax.
Yup. Winter Orb, Armageddon, Cataclysm them. Humility/Torpor Orb/Hushwing Gryff them. U/G is good at killing enchantments/artifacts, but we U/G players prefer these kinds of effects on creatures because they're easier to abuse. Even being aware of that, I may have only four spells that can deal with these kinds of effects.
Suppression Field drives my playgroup up the wall, but may not be as strong if you're relying on these kinds of effects for your mana/draw. Aven Mindcensor does similar stuff to fetches, and should shut down their combos to boot since they won't be able to tutor for them. Spirit of the Labyrinth is also a great silver bullet here.
All of these are just hate strats though. None of them will actually kill an opponent, and several of them will make the table hate you even as you're preventing the table big bad from killing everyone. I've never really arrived at a consistent method of ending the game. Even the best ones I can think of take several turns to kill three other people.
Can't say I disagree with the philosophy of "battling annoying cards with annoying cards."
I realize Spirit of the Labyrinth actually works pretty well with Necropotence here, that's a plus. If I go Nath of the Gilt-Leaf I can have discard, LD, grave hate, and Stax all in one, seems to be the ideal bastard to abuse a control player with, and not half-bad against other type of decks also.
I stopped playing such decks because it caused my playgroup a lot of ire. Then, last night, there was a new kid in the shop who used pretty much the exact same style of deck with Kruphix. Ironically, I had no ideas how to handle it, because my deck, like his, was meant to be: 1) Get creatures into play for infinite combos, 2) Counters every threat, 3) Bounces every threat that's not countered, 4) Get them back with Eternal Witness and other comes into play effect.
Fortunately, I am making a mono-red deck and potentially a Boros deck, with cards like Torpor Orb, Grand Abolisher, Price of Glory, and Boseiju, Who Shelters All, which don't affect my deck. However, how do I handle global bounce cards like (repeated) Cyclonic Rift? If I use Akroma, Angel of Fury I can probably end the game early, but I don't want to make my deck purely anti-control either, I just want strategies that can provide a fighting chance when I'm facing such a deck again.
Any advices would be appreciated.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Boros:
Cut them off at the source. Go heavy on artifact ramp and go the land destruction route. Price of Glory fits well within that strategy.Iona, Shield of Emeria naming blue. Boil. Join in on the counters with Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast.
Honestly, it's an uphill battle playing Boros ( arguably the worst color pair ) against Simic ( arguably the best color pair ). Against combo decks my favorite are black's library exile pair of Sadistic Sacrament and Praetor's Grap, which unfortunately don't come in those colors.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
If you really need to cut combos you can use jester's cap in any deck.
stranglehold can help against ramp, or extra turns if its that kind of blue deck.
Follow me on instagram @TheMTGWord
I don't mind playing mono-black either, it was the theme of my previous deck before I broke it down for Daxos, but Jester's Cap is definitely easier since it's an artifact. Secretly, I like mono-red's bluntness more, maybe a BR deck is possible?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
My sense is that Boros is the weakest color configuration. Red and white are the weakest individual colors, but there are strong strategies within those colors (eg: Feldon reanimator, Daretti scrap) and cards that heavily reward a mono color build (eg: Emeria, the Sky Ruin, Caged Sun). Boros seems to really get the shaft when it comes to commanders as well. They almost printed a powerful one in C16, but it cares about big creatures instead of equipment for some reason.
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
1. Aggro them out they are typically slow and ramp heavy. Once I had someone just casting all the ramp in the world.. I played luminac ascension turn 2 and killed him before his first threat.
2. Clones, bribery, preator's grasp, treaten etc. jester's cap is similar but taking thier threats for yourself is better. You basically get what they have but for cheaper, then counter or remove thier threat.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Removal that is not bounce or counter is hard for them to have for nonartifact/enchantments and so you can benefit from that.
Also, uncounterable spells like Supreme Verdict can end up wrecking a U/G strategy. Hosing their graveyard after that with something like Tormod's Crypt can shut down a deck.
Sometimes, you have to go full anticontrol to handle them due to the advantage that U/G gets from ramp+draw+other benefits the colors provide. There's a few other enchantments that work for you in this as well, like Stranglehold and War's Toll.
I tend to run U/X decks, though usually nothing with Green. There's tools out there to handle that, like Vexing Shusher and other cards that get past the grip of stack-controlling spells. If you can get threatening permanents out, you already won half the battle.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Would running multiple anti-control cards make it weaker against other deck types? It's probably most natural in mono-red because that's the color's innate strength.
I always run answers in my deck, roughly 1/3 of the nonland cards in my decks are answers, but facing U/G has been difficult because it can counter, destroy, or bounce those answers. And if I replace answers in my deck to go against control, not only it feels less safe against other decks, it's also look 'obvious'. (Of course, I can explain it by saying, "It's like black discard.")
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Barring that, if you go more aggressive it might help. Mono red has many early board clearance cards (Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout], and you can run Manabarbs, Citadel of Pain and other such cards to put pressure on your enemies, especially if they have land ramp.
Decks:
Casual
R Burn R
EDH
R Godo Voltron R
RUG ETB Overload RUG
BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW
GW Spirits!!! GW
RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
Humility and Rule of Law can slow everyone to RW speed. Just be ready to be targeted.
Torpor Orb and Rest in Peace can hammer many decks, not just UG. Resolving them and surviving the table's ire is the trick.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
War's Toll and similar work against other decks too; 90% of the time (math is not accurate) they don't want to attack with all of their creatures, like the utility creatures. Also, people like leaving mana open to respond, even if it's only something like Krosan Grip in R/G. Cards like Fumiko the Lowblood are an example of what hoses utility creatures with static abilities or nontap ones.
Blue is a relevant enough color to want to deal with for noncontrol decks; just figure out what they run in your meta and respond in kind, and they will do the same, and so on and so forth in the circle of life...deckbuilding...whatever.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
After some testing, I find it's easier to go mono-red in this raid-and-pillage scheme than Boros, using Akroma (who is also a viable voltron commander), although white's artifact/LD cards are also tempting. Which Boros commander would you recommend for this style of play?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Decks:
Casual
R Burn R
EDH
R Godo Voltron R
RUG ETB Overload RUG
BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW
GW Spirits!!! GW
RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
I hope some of this helps.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
Yup. Winter Orb, Armageddon, Cataclysm them. Humility/Torpor Orb/Hushwing Gryff them. U/G is good at killing enchantments/artifacts, but we U/G players prefer these kinds of effects on creatures because they're easier to abuse. Even being aware of that, I may have only four spells that can deal with these kinds of effects.
Suppression Field drives my playgroup up the wall, but may not be as strong if you're relying on these kinds of effects for your mana/draw. Aven Mindcensor does similar stuff to fetches, and should shut down their combos to boot since they won't be able to tutor for them. Spirit of the Labyrinth is also a great silver bullet here.
All of these are just hate strats though. None of them will actually kill an opponent, and several of them will make the table hate you even as you're preventing the table big bad from killing everyone. I've never really arrived at a consistent method of ending the game. Even the best ones I can think of take several turns to kill three other people.
Oh Rider, my heart will go on...
As I told someone else, I think GW with Gaddock Teeg works better to hate on draw/go control, but Boros has access to all the white Bears, so I could see it. Red has several chaos enchantments that can do work, as well as copy spells(fork, reverberate, dual caster Mage). There's also the red x spell with split second that I can't think of.
Can't say I disagree with the philosophy of "battling annoying cards with annoying cards."
I realize Spirit of the Labyrinth actually works pretty well with Necropotence here, that's a plus. If I go Nath of the Gilt-Leaf I can have discard, LD, grave hate, and Stax all in one, seems to be the ideal bastard to abuse a control player with, and not half-bad against other type of decks also.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
And in a 4+ player game, since there is usually a green deck, you often have the option of copying a ramp spell.