As the title says, I can't decide what on earth I should be doing with Meren. I have a deck that I threw together out of the precon, but in reality, it is all over the place. It's getting scrapped and Reforged. I kept looking for any sort of discussion here, and no one seems to be talking about her, so here we go. What is a good way to use her? My mess of a deck is sort of like a GB tokens list with a bunch of creatures that like to die, but there's no break strategy.
Treat her like a Sheoldred, Whispering One who needs a bit of sacrifices before starting to work. So you'll want some reanimatable fatties and a few ways to ditch them in the grave, like Entomb and Buried Alive.
Next, the experience counters. You'll want some token generators (Bitterblossom, Awakening Zone and its newer cousin) and some free sac outlet (Altar of Dementia, Phyrexian Altar, Viscera Seer, Greater Good, those are some good ones) to tick up Meren's counters. Persist/Undying guys are also good, with the absolute kingpin being Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, but if you want to avoid combo, avoid him.
With that basic framework done, you can add seasoning to your own liking, pending which kind of creatures you want to reanimate and pull back, other ways to sacrifice and get experience, etc etc.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I wanted to go with a Relentless Rats theme because you would gain access to Bloodbond March but didn't have the rats or the money to go out and get them so I decided to with an All Creature build 53 Creatures 1 enchantment thrown in because it was to good not to Deadbridge Chant and 45 land's with some obvious utility land splash. Also in all the list I've seen this gem seems to be nowhere Plaguemaw Beast.
i'm trying her out without a tokens subtheme. frankly i dont' think she needs it, and so far its been fairly true. putting counters on her is fairly easy, and with her recursion ability i'm having an easier time of things with some sac outlets like sadistic hypnotist, phyrexian altar, and ashnod's altar for example, and utility creatures. play acidic slime, sac to hypnotist, bring back acidic slime eot... who needs tokens?
things like dawntreader elk and sakura tribe elder get you counters pretty quickly, and then keep coming back for even more counters and ramp.
mine's built to either keep blowing up your *****, or just abuse the **** out of things like mind slicer.
i think some of the things that will lead to trouble and a convoluted strategy when building her are aiming too heavily at winning the game in a single turn through combo, or focusing too heavily on getting experience counters. the counters rack up extremely fast and easily with minimal effort just through normal g/b shenanigans, and she lends herself a little better to attrition than combo.
Just run hatebears and utility dudes. She plays a lot like Karador, Ghost Chieftain with more emphasis on big guys. I'll list some things I have in my Karador that would fit.
I've been playing her as a dredge/toolbox commander with a "combo" kill. She feels a little slow out of the gate to go full reanimator - you aren't getting a huge dude into play very quickly with this deck. She's more of a super grindy value-based commander.
A card that I haven't seen people mention yet that's doing a lot of work for me is Mind Slash. Effective way of dealing with board wipes, hosers, etc. before people get a chance to play them - and it gives you XP counters and whatever other bonus effects you get from creatures dying. Bane of Progress has also been great.
The way I'm doing it, is using small efficient utility creatures, sac outlets, tokens and control enchantments. What's really strong about her, is that the exp counters stay. So if you blow the world or the grave yards are taken out, you will almost always be ahead.
My plan is to repeatedly utilize utility creatures to gain card advantage and effects like Mulch and Grisly Salvage to grab more land while putting things in the graveyard for Maren to play with, then use forced sacrifice and Grave Pact sorts of effects to keep others from keeping creatures in play while animating and attacking with more substantial value creatures. I'm also planning to use Blade of Selves with value creatures - things like Wood Elves early in the game, more substantial threats like Gary and Rune-Scarred Demon later in the game. I'm also tossing in some grave hate and graveyard theft stuff to keep others from having their graveyards be as useful as mine, including some (like Night Soil) which give me more creatures to sacrifice.
Cool thing about Maren is that she's such a good engine that you can build a lot of different reanimator shells around her.
One card I'm planning to run that I don't see getting much mention for Maren is Perilous Forays, which seems a great, natural fit for her.
I see her as an excellent G/B Good stuff commander. You get value if she sticks at the end of the turn and recursion of etb creatures or sac effect makes her one of the better good stuff general.
I would be the first to say if you have no direction with the deck, that sounds like your own problem OP. Not to be a downer, but it's how one grows as a deckbuilder My own Meren build suffered from this up to a week ago, as like you say, there are many workable cards and strategies. So it's tough!
The thing from where you're at, besides sifting through random cards posters suggest, is finding out what you want to do? You'll want to find a major theme, and maybe a minor subtheme or two to support it. IE, Token based, with some stax elements to abuse the fact you're swimming in tokens.
The biggest boon to building an EDH deck is staying on theme and knowing your group. What everyone finds acceptable at the table, or finds fun. Theme is as important in casual decks as it is here. You can jam a bunch of good cards together, but if they dont synergize, then they're as good as dead cards, and this is especially true in EDH. I had Mike in here, with Spike Feeder and Weaver, but I wasnt focused on winning via the combo, so they typically were dead cards that didnt do as much work for me. Not that Mike or Weaver are bad cards independent of each other, but you're not happy to see them. I've since gone more of a ETB/LTB route, using tokens to punch damage through and block as a minitheme with some sac outlets like Evolutionary Leap, Grave Pact, and Smokestax to support that. Mini themes are okay, so long as they synergize with the rest of the deck on a real level.
What would be not as synergistic, would be to go further with the stax route in my build with Tangle Wire. Why? Because I dont poliferate, or run ways to reset Tangle Wire, recur it, etc. I believe Glissa succeeds more with traditional Artifact based stax, where obviously Meren can abuse creature based stax
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
It seems like a way to get Maren online extremely quickly. Assuming no other ramp, you can cast HS turn 2, turn 3 cast Maren and a 1 drop that makes another token (Blisterpod, Tukatongue Thalid, Hangarback Walker), get two experience counters, end step return it to the battlefield for a total of 4 XP counters (or 3 with HBW) on turn 3.
Late game you don't really want it around because you wanna be producing tokens with Hornet Queen, Mycoloth, etc., so it might just be too situational. In a deck focusing on reanimating fatties rather than value creatures though, it seems a good way to accelerate your game plan.
I think msot people know that survival of th fittest is a powerfull card.The problem is that not everyone has access to it sincee is quite expensive and hard to find.
It seems like a way to get Maren online extremely quickly. Assuming no other ramp, you can cast HS turn 2, turn 3 cast Maren and a 1 drop that makes another token (Blisterpod, Tukatongue Thalid, Hangarback Walker), get two experience counters, end step return it to the battlefield for a total of 4 XP counters (or 3 with HBW) on turn 3.
Late game you don't really want it around because you wanna be producing tokens with Hornet Queen, Mycoloth, etc., so it might just be too situational. In a deck focusing on reanimating fatties rather than value creatures though, it seems a good way to accelerate your game plan.
Excellent idea, I think I'll steal this. I love HS!
While building my Maren deck, I realized that Spore Frog is likely to be pretty darn good with Maren. Now I need to pick up an additional copy for the deck.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
I think msot people know that survival of th fittest is a powerfull card.The problem is that not everyone has access to it sincee is quite expensive and hard to find.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think msot people know that survival of th fittest is a powerfull card.The problem is that not everyone has access to it sincee is quite expensive and hard to find.
I think Fauna Shaman is much better than the enchantment in this kind of deck since it is a creature and can be recurred with only two exp.
Or you could be retrieving a more powerful creature to ramp you out, win you the game, wipe the board, wipe your opponent's hands, etc. Fauna Shaman has to wait an entire turn since it doesnt have haste (and if you retrieve it with Meren, you cant equip it with Lightning Greaves prior to your turn ending). In addition, it costs 1G rather than just G. Oh, and it taps, so it's limited to once per turn without shenanigans, Survival doesnt have this restriction because it is an enchantment. It also doesnt survive most board wipes, since board wipes by and large hit just creatures. Survival will by and large survive most board wipes, because it is an enchantment. However, expect a Krosan Grip to hit it eventually.
It's a substitute. A fair one, yes, but it's not nearly as good.
I think msot people know that survival of th fittest is a powerfull card.The problem is that not everyone has access to it sincee is quite expensive and hard to find.
I think Fauna Shaman is much better than the enchantment in this kind of deck since it is a creature and can be recurred with only two exp.
Or you could be retrieving a more powerful creature to ramp you out, win you the game, wipe the board, wipe your opponent's hands, etc. Fauna Shaman has to wait an entire turn since it doesnt have haste (and if you retrieve it with Meren, you cant equip it with Lightning Greaves prior to your turn ending). In addition, it costs 1G rather than just G. Oh, and it taps, so it's limited to once per turn without shenanigans, Survival doesnt have this restriction because it is an enchantment. It also doesnt survive most board wipes, since board wipes by and large hit just creatures. Survival will by and large survive most board wipes, because it is an enchantment. However, expect a Krosan Grip to hit it eventually.
It's a substitute. A fair one, yes, but it's not nearly as good.
Yeah, you are totally right, cannot argue with that, well said!
Well thanks! I dont mean to be so down on Fauna Shaman, but she got cut early on. If I would tone down my list to be more casual and slower, I would add her back in.
I just finished my Meren deck, and putting it together was tough, because there are so many great cards that have such good synergy with her.
Anyone else doing Birthing Pod stunts with Meren? Seems good, since Pod offers another easy way to get experience counters while putting more stuff in the graveyard for her to bring back for value.
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How do we build Meren?
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
Next, the experience counters. You'll want some token generators (Bitterblossom, Awakening Zone and its newer cousin) and some free sac outlet (Altar of Dementia, Phyrexian Altar, Viscera Seer, Greater Good, those are some good ones) to tick up Meren's counters. Persist/Undying guys are also good, with the absolute kingpin being Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, but if you want to avoid combo, avoid him.
With that basic framework done, you can add seasoning to your own liking, pending which kind of creatures you want to reanimate and pull back, other ways to sacrifice and get experience, etc etc.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
things like dawntreader elk and sakura tribe elder get you counters pretty quickly, and then keep coming back for even more counters and ramp.
mine's built to either keep blowing up your *****, or just abuse the **** out of things like mind slicer.
i think some of the things that will lead to trouble and a convoluted strategy when building her are aiming too heavily at winning the game in a single turn through combo, or focusing too heavily on getting experience counters. the counters rack up extremely fast and easily with minimal effort just through normal g/b shenanigans, and she lends herself a little better to attrition than combo.
Sac outlets:
Graveyard filling:
Mana dorks:
Utility creatures:
A card that I haven't seen people mention yet that's doing a lot of work for me is Mind Slash. Effective way of dealing with board wipes, hosers, etc. before people get a chance to play them - and it gives you XP counters and whatever other bonus effects you get from creatures dying. Bane of Progress has also been great.
Cool thing about Maren is that she's such a good engine that you can build a lot of different reanimator shells around her.
One card I'm planning to run that I don't see getting much mention for Maren is Perilous Forays, which seems a great, natural fit for her.
The thing from where you're at, besides sifting through random cards posters suggest, is finding out what you want to do? You'll want to find a major theme, and maybe a minor subtheme or two to support it. IE, Token based, with some stax elements to abuse the fact you're swimming in tokens.
* Stax? If so, build around cards like Grave Pact, Ward of Bones, Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, Glissa, Poliferate effects
* ETB/LTB? Creatures suggested above that trigger on death or enterting the battle field like Fleshbag Maurader, Wood Elves, Mindslicer, etc are what you're looking for. You'll also want sacrifice outlets, Evolutionary Leap, Birthing Pod, Phyrexian Altar, etc.
* Fatty reanimation? You'll want to load up on the experience counters early. Tokens can help, as do creatures like Sakura-Tribe Elder who can pop themselves in a hurry. Deadbridge Chant and Dredge friends to load up the graveyard. Also, run ways to give yourself hexproof to prevent your grave from getting exiled.
* Tokens. Bitterblossom, From Beyond, Awakening Zone, Avenger of Zendkiar, Creakwood Liege, Deranged Hermit, Overrun effects. Tokens are expendable, and Meren can focus her efforts on recurring powerhouses like Avenger and Hermit.
The biggest boon to building an EDH deck is staying on theme and knowing your group. What everyone finds acceptable at the table, or finds fun. Theme is as important in casual decks as it is here. You can jam a bunch of good cards together, but if they dont synergize, then they're as good as dead cards, and this is especially true in EDH. I had Mike in here, with Spike Feeder and Weaver, but I wasnt focused on winning via the combo, so they typically were dead cards that didnt do as much work for me. Not that Mike or Weaver are bad cards independent of each other, but you're not happy to see them. I've since gone more of a ETB/LTB route, using tokens to punch damage through and block as a minitheme with some sac outlets like Evolutionary Leap, Grave Pact, and Smokestax to support that. Mini themes are okay, so long as they synergize with the rest of the deck on a real level.
What would be not as synergistic, would be to go further with the stax route in my build with Tangle Wire. Why? Because I dont poliferate, or run ways to reset Tangle Wire, recur it, etc. I believe Glissa succeeds more with traditional Artifact based stax, where obviously Meren can abuse creature based stax
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
On phasing:
It seems like a way to get Maren online extremely quickly. Assuming no other ramp, you can cast HS turn 2, turn 3 cast Maren and a 1 drop that makes another token (Blisterpod, Tukatongue Thalid, Hangarback Walker), get two experience counters, end step return it to the battlefield for a total of 4 XP counters (or 3 with HBW) on turn 3.
Late game you don't really want it around because you wanna be producing tokens with Hornet Queen, Mycoloth, etc., so it might just be too situational. In a deck focusing on reanimating fatties rather than value creatures though, it seems a good way to accelerate your game plan.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Excellent idea, I think I'll steal this. I love HS!
Commander BLOG: The Crazy 99
Gonti ; Sissay
Apprentice Necromancer and Doomed Necromancer offer alternative revival while fueling counters for Meren.
Garza's Assassin offers extra creature removal.
next-best thing
On phasing:
Or you could be retrieving a more powerful creature to ramp you out, win you the game, wipe the board, wipe your opponent's hands, etc. Fauna Shaman has to wait an entire turn since it doesnt have haste (and if you retrieve it with Meren, you cant equip it with Lightning Greaves prior to your turn ending). In addition, it costs 1G rather than just G. Oh, and it taps, so it's limited to once per turn without shenanigans, Survival doesnt have this restriction because it is an enchantment. It also doesnt survive most board wipes, since board wipes by and large hit just creatures. Survival will by and large survive most board wipes, because it is an enchantment. However, expect a Krosan Grip to hit it eventually.
It's a substitute. A fair one, yes, but it's not nearly as good.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Well thanks! I dont mean to be so down on Fauna Shaman, but she got cut early on. If I would tone down my list to be more casual and slower, I would add her back in.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Anyone else doing Birthing Pod stunts with Meren? Seems good, since Pod offers another easy way to get experience counters while putting more stuff in the graveyard for her to bring back for value.