I am putting together a bant colored control deck designed for multiplayer, with lots of counterspell type effects like Last Word, Mindbreak Trap, Voidslime and the like, with the aim to prevent anything from getting too insane and cutting out instant win the game combos.
I'd say no more than 15-20. Presumably you're going to have other forms of removal, so you should have a good mix of each type; some destruction, some counters, some exile, etc.
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My honest opinion is 1 if even that and that counter spell would have to be force of will otherwise you are waisting you deck space for counters when you could be taxing your opponents with stax cards. Countering spells are a bit overrated in my opinion in multiplayer. Sure counters a good 1v1. But multiplayer people get angry and you normally end up being the target.
just my opinion you don't have to listen
i feel counters in bant are ok and you could run 4-5 but bant is about combo value and board state, not control leave that to the
esper players
edit
i reread the question and i play 0 counter spells my decks
My honest opinion is 1 if even that and that counter spell would have to be force of will otherwise you are waisting you deck space for counters when you could be taxing your opponents with stax cards. Countering spells are a bit overrated in my opinion in multiplayer. Sure counters a good 1v1. But multiplayer people get angry and you normally end up being the target.
just my opinion you don't have to listen
i feel counters in bant are ok and you could run 4-5 but bant is about combo value and board state, not control leave that to the
esper players
edit
i reread the question and i play 0 counter spells my decks
My other deck is a mono red stax deck and it's pretty good but I've been playing Stax as my primary deck for years and want to try something else, simply for the sake of fun and trying something else out.
I think 10 or so is fairly reasonable. But I think it's more important to have ways to get them when you need them than the actual number of them IMO. You don't really want to be clogged with them and have them just sitting dead in your hand or being dead draws.
For Bant, I think Mystic Snake and Venser, Shaper Savant are are you really need because of how easy to are to search, recur, and blink.
I usually only run the "free" counters (Pact and Force) and nothing more than 2 CMC. Exceptions for Cryptic and Voidslime for versatility, and Plasm Capture for usually being a huge ROI if it resolves.
@elderscrollsnick: If counter spells are not worth running, you must have a very tame meta. If you think they have low value in multiplayer, you do not understand how to use them effectively in this environment.
Well since you see 11 cards by turn 3 you need about 9-10 to be sure to have one on turn 3-4 when the action normally starts.
I personally like to use counterspells that say "draw a card" as much as I can even if they cost more or give my opponents cards, the exile ones are important as well.
Anything you can use repeatedly or is a constant board prescence is also good in multiplayer.
First off, if you are the only one who is trying to control the board, you are going to have a bad time. Second, I strongly advise you to use cheap counterspells over bloated stuff with extra effects tacked on. Stuff like Last Word, Mystic Snake, Draining Whelk, Dismiss is useless, because it prevents you from actually doing anything than having mana open for one spell each turn. Also, counterspells need to be as cheap as possible, so you can always respond, if needed. I suggest playing Swan Song, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Arcane Denial, Disrupt, Counterspell, Negate, Mana Leak, Force of Will, Misdirection (not techincally a counterspell, but has many similar uses), Divert(see Misdirection), Pact of Negation, Daze, Mana Drain (if you can afford it of course), Force Spike, Mana Tithe, Remand (since tempo is usually the most important thing anyway).
First off, if you are the only one who is trying to control the board, you are going to have a bad time. Second, I strongly advise you to use cheap counterspells over bloated stuff with extra effects tacked on. Stuff like Last Word, Mystic Snake, Draining Whelk, Dismiss is useless, because it prevents you from actually doing anything than having mana open for one spell each turn. Also, counterspells need to be as cheap as possible, so you can always respond, if needed. I suggest playing Swan Song, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Arcane Denial, Disrupt, Counterspell, Negate, Mana Leak, Force of Will, Misdirection (not techincally a counterspell, but has many similar uses), Divert(see Misdirection), Pact of Negation, Daze, Mana Drain (if you can afford it of course), Force Spike, Mana Tithe, Remand (since tempo is usually the most important thing anyway).
Bant colors have loads of effects like Seedborn Muse and Prophet of Kruphix that allows me to have lots of mana+mana open on every opponents upkeep, not to mention lots of regrowth effects like restock and eternal witness, and mana ramp. Remand is a good card but I don't think it's that great in EDH compared to something like Hinder.
Also, if I'm the only person at the table running counter spells, it means my sweepers and wrath of god type effects will be easy to cast whenever I want to, so if anything it will be easier to control the board.
If you're not careful with those counters and you piss off one guy, he's GOING to resolve a threat (he runs more threats than you run answers, that I promise) and he's gonna run you over. He only has to resolve one and you can't control a table full of people with just counters. I only run counters in edh if they have extra effects tacked on like the aforementioned venser or if it's to protect a game winning play of my own. I rely on sweepers and spot removal to stop board states that are getting out of control. It's true that seedborne muse and prophet of kruphix exist, but removal for those creatures will happen...a lot. If you waste your counters protecting the untappers, then the threat is going to come in and crush you. You're better off running creatures for the effect that can also get through. If you're going to go with regrowth effects, that's fine, but what happens when you draw mana ramp+regrowth and no counters? I think you're better off running a repeatable engine like deadeye navigator+eternal witness over anything else, and I hate dealing with it. It's effective, but vulnerable to spot removal. Careful doing it!
Bant colors have loads of effects like Seedborn Muse and Prophet of Kruphix that allows me to have lots of mana+mana open on every opponents upkeep, not to mention lots of regrowth effects like restock and eternal witness, and mana ramp. Remand is a good card but I don't think it's that great in EDH compared to something like Hinder.
Also, if I'm the only person at the table running counter spells, it means my sweepers and wrath of god type effects will be easy to cast whenever I want to, so if anything it will be easier to control the board.
If several opponents are trying to do naughty things before turn 5 (or whichever turn that you don't yet have 5 mana open), then your arguments don't really apply. You can't expect to only start handling threats after a certain point. EDH can be a fast format, what with all the fast mana ramp and deep pool of threats.
Bant colors have loads of effects like Seedborn Muse and Prophet of Kruphix that allows me to have lots of mana+mana open on every opponents upkeep, not to mention lots of regrowth effects like restock and eternal witness, and mana ramp. Remand is a good card but I don't think it's that great in EDH compared to something like Hinder.
Also, if I'm the only person at the table running counter spells, it means my sweepers and wrath of god type effects will be easy to cast whenever I want to, so if anything it will be easier to control the board.
If several opponents are trying to do naughty things before turn 5 (or whichever turn that you don't yet have 5 mana open), then your arguments don't really apply. You can't expect to only start handling threats after a certain point. EDH can be a fast format, what with all the fast mana ramp and deep pool of threats.
Lol you're right, if several players all decide to do things when I'm tapped out, I won't be able to do things in response. I also will not be able to counter every single spell that every opponent plays.
I'm planning on running 1 and 2 mana counterspells, as well as the buyback one, Last Word, Mindbreak Trap and a few more expensive cost ones.
I simply want to stop any board wipes I don't want to happen,game winning combos or monster death creatures. Of course I'm not aiming to counter everything... if I wanted to do that Erayo would be my general.
Why are you talking to me like I've never played EDH before? I've been playing the format for atleast 7 years, and yes, *gasp* sometimes against good tier one decks like Zur the Enchanter and Sharum.
Lol you're right, if several players all decide to do things when I'm tapped out, I won't be able to do things in response. I also will not be able to counter every single spell that every opponent plays.
I wasn't talking about opponents playing stuff when you are tapped out (although that will of course also happen). I was talking about opponents playing stuff early, when you don't have substantial mana yet.
I'm planning on running 1 and 2 mana counterspells, as well as the buyback one, Last Word, Mindbreak Trap and a few more expensive cost ones. I simply want to stop any board wipes I don't want to happen,game winning combos or monster death creatures. Of course I'm not aiming to counter everything... if I wanted to do that Erayo would be my general.
I take it you're joking again with the Erayo statement (he is banned of course), but there do exist true control decks, which aim to properly control the stack throughout the game. What you are describing is a normal EDH deck that simply aims to protect its spells and deal with stuff that's too problematic. I wouldn't classify that as control.
Why are you talking to me like I've never played EDH before? I've been playing the format for atleast 7 years, and yes, *gasp* sometimes against good tier one decks like Zur the Enchanter and Sharum.
I can't really know your EDH history from one post, now can I You'd be surprised at the number of people who think cards like Spelljack and Draining Whelk are legit removal.
It makes for a powerful package. Three cheap hard counters, two of which work with Isochron Scepter and one that tutors. And two counters that can't be stopped, for that board wipe or combo that REALLY needs to be stopped RIGHT NOW.
In commander your goal shouldn't be to counter the whole board since thats impossible. Rather you use them selectively to either stop another player's game-winning haymaker, or to protect your own. 4-6 good hard counters is plenty enough for that.
It makes for a powerful package. Three cheap hard counters, two of which work with Isochron Scepter and one that tutors. And two counters that can't be stopped, for that board wipe or combo that REALLY needs to be stopped RIGHT NOW.
[card]
In commander your goal shouldn't be to counter the whole board since thats impossible.[/card] Rather you use them selectively to either stop another player's game-winning haymaker, or to protect your own. 4-6 good hard counters is plenty enough for that.
I'm well aware of that. Even in modern mono U tron and classic draw-go you don't aim to counter everything. In bant colors you have sweepers like Supreme Verdict, so I don't really have to counter everything. My aim is to save them to stop the degenerate instant win combos. I also have ways to get easily recuring counter combos in Mystic Snake and Capsize/Deadeye Navigator Not to mention various regrowth effects to get my counterspells back.
It makes for a powerful package. Three cheap hard counters, two of which work with Isochron Scepter and one that tutors. And two counters that can't be stopped, for that board wipe or combo that REALLY needs to be stopped RIGHT NOW.
In commander your goal shouldn't be to counter the whole board since thats impossible. Rather you use them selectively to either stop another player's game-winning haymaker, or to protect your own. 4-6 good hard counters is plenty enough for that.
I would never run Last Word, outside of mono blue control with a 20+ counter count, and even then it is probably sub par.
Negate is not bad, but generally sub par; I would much rather have Arcane Denial or Swan Song for that slot, and would probably even prefer Spell Pierce.
Counterflux is again not bad, but is probably fifth pick, if you even have the colors.
I dislike Muddle the Mixture - at [mana]UU[/card], I do not want a restricted counter. Many people like it for the Transmute though, and having the option of increased flexibility can be valuable.
Of your list, Counterspell is the only one I would ever run with regularity, while Counterflux and Muddle the Mixture get fringe recommendations, based on the expected metagame and the rest of the deck. Even on a budget, there are several better options available, and without such restrictions they are simply not worth considering.
When running non lockdowm control in EDH, do not think in terms of "how many counters." Instead think in terms of "how much removal" and consider counters as removal (removing things from the stack). Anywhere between 15-25 non creature card slots dedicated to removal with 5-8 of those slots for counters is pretty good. Add in a fair few control creatures and you have what you need. Also run as many relevant tutors as you can so you can grab an answer when you need to grab an answer.
Also, combo and control kind of go hand in hand in EDH. In part because control sort of wants to win quickly and in part because many great control cards are also good combo pieces.
In a heavily dedicated control deck, I could see 10-15 if you are wanting to do other stuff. In my regular control decks I normally run around 6-8, but 6-10 is probably a good number for a standard control deck that will have other forms of removal and interaction. I think more draw is better than more counter. I only really find 6-8 good counter spells that I really like, then I look for other things.
Only my zero creature Talrand deck runs more. Its a casual deck, so I probably play less counters than most in that deck, about 15. In competitive or cutthroat metas, you may find yourself going up in counters, but in my experience, I only need to see 1-3 in a game to keep things in check. But my group is anti-combo and likes to play a little longer games than some.
Counterspells are great, not only for countering your opponents' threats, a strategy that others have mentioned is a losing battle in multiplayer, but for ensuring your own threats resolve, and protecting them when they do. I play mono-black, and I'm so ridiculously tempted to run Dimir for the sole reason of having counterspell backup to my game winning threats. I'd want 5-10, depending on how many tutors you run. The thing about counterspells is, they only work when you cast them. I'd never just run a couple. You'll never have it when you need it.
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I also have a bunch of regrowth type effects, like Restock, Scrivener and Eternal Witness and yes, regrowth.
How many counterspells should an EDH control deck run?
Decks:
Casual
R Burn R
EDH
R Godo Voltron R
RUG ETB Overload RUG
BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW
GW Spirits!!! GW
RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
just my opinion you don't have to listen
i feel counters in bant are ok and you could run 4-5 but bant is about combo value and board state, not control leave that to the
esper players
edit
i reread the question and i play 0 counter spells my decks
[center][color=Blue]
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin
but i do run cards like nether void and such but i don't know your budget
[center][color=Blue]
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin
My other deck is a mono red stax deck and it's pretty good but I've been playing Stax as my primary deck for years and want to try something else, simply for the sake of fun and trying something else out.
For Bant, I think Mystic Snake and Venser, Shaper Savant are are you really need because of how easy to are to search, recur, and blink.
I usually only run the "free" counters (Pact and Force) and nothing more than 2 CMC. Exceptions for Cryptic and Voidslime for versatility, and Plasm Capture for usually being a huge ROI if it resolves.
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In GU, Voidslime is likely better than Trickbind. I would love to include Swan Song and Arcane Denial as well, but can never seem to find room.
This is also not including creature-based disruption, such as Venser, Shaper Savant, Voidmage Husher, and Mystic Snake.
@elderscrollsnick: If counter spells are not worth running, you must have a very tame meta. If you think they have low value in multiplayer, you do not understand how to use them effectively in this environment.
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I personally like to use counterspells that say "draw a card" as much as I can even if they cost more or give my opponents cards, the exile ones are important as well.
Anything you can use repeatedly or is a constant board prescence is also good in multiplayer.
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Bant colors have loads of effects like Seedborn Muse and Prophet of Kruphix that allows me to have lots of mana+mana open on every opponents upkeep, not to mention lots of regrowth effects like restock and eternal witness, and mana ramp. Remand is a good card but I don't think it's that great in EDH compared to something like Hinder.
Also, if I'm the only person at the table running counter spells, it means my sweepers and wrath of god type effects will be easy to cast whenever I want to, so if anything it will be easier to control the board.
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Counterspell
Cryptic Command
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Muddle the Mixture
Spell Crumple
So 6 hard counters, plus a handful of spot removal, board wipes, and Cyclonic Rift.
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Cryptic Command - Very versatile, does everything
Arcane Denial - replaces itself. Cheap and efficient
Muddle the Mixture - Good tutor and a counterspell most the time
Force of Will - free and can catch people off guard
Pact of Negation - free and can catch people off guard
Counterspell - cheap and efficient
Mana Drain - very powerful
Let's not forget other color's counter too if you aren't blue
Imp's Mischief
Lapse of Certainty
Withering Boon
Dawn Charm
Mana Tithe
And sometimes you have regrowth effects like Snapcaster Mage/Eternal Witness so its like you are running alot of counterspells
If several opponents are trying to do naughty things before turn 5 (or whichever turn that you don't yet have 5 mana open), then your arguments don't really apply. You can't expect to only start handling threats after a certain point. EDH can be a fast format, what with all the fast mana ramp and deep pool of threats.
Lol you're right, if several players all decide to do things when I'm tapped out, I won't be able to do things in response. I also will not be able to counter every single spell that every opponent plays.
I'm planning on running 1 and 2 mana counterspells, as well as the buyback one, Last Word, Mindbreak Trap and a few more expensive cost ones.
I simply want to stop any board wipes I don't want to happen,game winning combos or monster death creatures. Of course I'm not aiming to counter everything... if I wanted to do that Erayo would be my general.
Why are you talking to me like I've never played EDH before? I've been playing the format for atleast 7 years, and yes, *gasp* sometimes against good tier one decks like Zur the Enchanter and Sharum.
I take it you're joking again with the Erayo statement (he is banned of course), but there do exist true control decks, which aim to properly control the stack throughout the game. What you are describing is a normal EDH deck that simply aims to protect its spells and deal with stuff that's too problematic. I wouldn't classify that as control.
I can't really know your EDH history from one post, now can I You'd be surprised at the number of people who think cards like Spelljack and Draining Whelk are legit removal.
It makes for a powerful package. Three cheap hard counters, two of which work with Isochron Scepter and one that tutors. And two counters that can't be stopped, for that board wipe or combo that REALLY needs to be stopped RIGHT NOW.
In commander your goal shouldn't be to counter the whole board since thats impossible. Rather you use them selectively to either stop another player's game-winning haymaker, or to protect your own. 4-6 good hard counters is plenty enough for that.
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I'm well aware of that. Even in modern mono U tron and classic draw-go you don't aim to counter everything. In bant colors you have sweepers like Supreme Verdict, so I don't really have to counter everything. My aim is to save them to stop the degenerate instant win combos. I also have ways to get easily recuring counter combos in Mystic Snake and Capsize/Deadeye Navigator Not to mention various regrowth effects to get my counterspells back.
I would never run Last Word, outside of mono blue control with a 20+ counter count, and even then it is probably sub par.
Negate is not bad, but generally sub par; I would much rather have Arcane Denial or Swan Song for that slot, and would probably even prefer Spell Pierce.
Counterflux is again not bad, but is probably fifth pick, if you even have the colors.
I dislike Muddle the Mixture - at [mana]UU[/card], I do not want a restricted counter. Many people like it for the Transmute though, and having the option of increased flexibility can be valuable.
Of your list, Counterspell is the only one I would ever run with regularity, while Counterflux and Muddle the Mixture get fringe recommendations, based on the expected metagame and the rest of the deck. Even on a budget, there are several better options available, and without such restrictions they are simply not worth considering.
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Muldrotha, the Gravetide
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Along with 2x Spotremoval and 2x Wipes, a bit Stax, 40 Lands and 2 Gods. Great deck.
Also, combo and control kind of go hand in hand in EDH. In part because control sort of wants to win quickly and in part because many great control cards are also good combo pieces.
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UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
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Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
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Only my zero creature Talrand deck runs more. Its a casual deck, so I probably play less counters than most in that deck, about 15. In competitive or cutthroat metas, you may find yourself going up in counters, but in my experience, I only need to see 1-3 in a game to keep things in check. But my group is anti-combo and likes to play a little longer games than some.