1 mana for 1 card is still some of the best value you will ever find. I don't see the hate on Mind's Eye, it can quickly refill your hand at very low opportunity cost each turn.
1 mana for 1 card is still some of the best value you will ever find. I don't see the hate on Mind's Eye, it can quickly refill your hand at very low opportunity cost each turn.
I don't think anyone is hating on it, the whole Staff vs Mind's Eye is a bit weird because they function differently even if they have similar effects
Too slow for my tastes. I play it in RW if anything, and even then, it's competing with Skullclamp, Staff of Nin, and the like.
It is a better card than Staff of Nin by about a hundred thousand times.
Not really. Staff gives you one reliable card every turn. Less than Mind's Eye for the same price, but you don't have to pay 1 for each card drawn. You can get more off Mind's Eye, if you're willing to hold 2 or more open.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
It depends on the situation. If you do play it makes up for the tempo loss with massive card advantage. If you needed to answer something it's the lesser of two options but it's more a proactive card than a reactive one that is why you might feel like your spending 5 mana to do nothing.
another card i've seen the internet (mostly here) rave about how great it is. yet, every time i've actually seen it hit the table, it does nothing and gets cut two weeks later.
to me it always seemed like one of those cards that seems really good in theory, that everyone says you have to run because its so great... but they don't actually run it at any competitive table and don't realize just how not so great it actually is.
to expound on that: the mana cost is too high, needing to leave 1 up just to draw even one card, conditionally, is also extremely prohibitive. i use to see it a lot back when zendikar was a new set, it didn't really do much then either. these days i see it turn up every so often in artifact based decks (mishra, sharuum, etc) where mostly it just sits there and does nothing because the pilot of that deck would rather be spending mana on other things.
Sydri likes the staff.
Anything kruphix/seedborn likes the eye.
In a competitive deck both lose out to rhystic study and mystic remora but thats blue. If I was playing red/white decks in need of draw I would probably play both. Red can pitch and weld them both early for draws. White can tutor for them...but Memory Jar would be better. So hyper competitive, neither. Good solid options for card draw, yes. One better than the other? Always deck specific but If I wanted one on the field Id choose the Minds Eye everytime.
I've started most of my competitive decks with mind's eye in the original build, and most of the have had mind's eye eventually removed for something more powerful. I'm not saying mind's eye isn't good. It is, but its more of a supplemental draw engine. In decks that have problems drawing cards its pretty clutch, but In ones that have easier access to card draw I've found that it kinda just takes up space.
I play a lot of non normal builds, and have had a chance to play with both (admittedly, the mind's eye was a copy, but still). Mind's eye all the way. I play a lot of red and white decks and if it makes it once around the table, you've gotten your mana's worth. Staff of nin isn't bad if you can generate a lot of extra turns, but I prefer minds eye, hands down. (It's worth noting that I primarily play red and white decks and if other colors are there, they are support colors, so take what I say with a grain of salt..). Awesome card, though!
It depends on the situation. If you do play it makes up for the tempo loss with massive card advantage. If you needed to answer something it's the lesser of two options but it's more a proactive card than a reactive one that is why you might feel like your spending 5 mana to do nothing.
That's what I've been saying.
Plus, there's something for redundancy. If I'm playing anything other than monoblack or colorless, I always include plenty of ways to get rid of artifacts. (In black, I have Gate to Phyrexia, Phyrexian Tribute, a few "target player sacrifices a permanent" cards, and anything colorless. Or Karn, Silver Golem + Gild or something like that if I'm desperate.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I play a lot of non normal builds, and have had a chance to play with both (admittedly, the mind's eye was a copy, but still). Mind's eye all the way. I play a lot of red and white decks and if it makes it once around the table, you've gotten your mana's worth.
8 mana for 3 cards (best case described) got your mana's worth? I guess in Red/White maybe that's OK, but not to my liking.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
It's better than tower of fortunes and I run that, too. I prefer cards of this nature because even though they seem bad, they fly under the radar and that's often what is needed in a red/white big mana style deck in order to get away with it (or often as not, mono red). Red and white decks, in particular, aren't often allowed much card draw but when they do get a spell, it tends to be pretty high impact. Any one of the given token generator spells (both red and white have these), insurrection, or pick your wrath effect, etc.. I would think that the card draw aspect needs to be limited to balance it some, even though the cards themselves. While the cards themselves may not be up to black/blue/green standards, red and white will take what it can get!
You can bet this is competitive in mono-Green and in any non-Blue (or I guess Black) deck that doesn't have an artifact theme. It's also definitely better than Staff of Nin IMO
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
i think minds eye is definitely overrated. I have a theory at least, that in the early to mid-game, convenience trumps power. In other words, the convenience of being able to just plop the staff down and just start drawing is better than the inconvenience of having to cast mind's eye and then having to invest more mana into it. maybe im just not a very good player, but i think being able to guarantee cards in hand and knowing how much mana i need to hold up is a pretty significant thing for me; i dont like having untapped lands in the beginning of my untap step.
but either way, i think the one you'd wanna have at the end is probably dependant on your actual deck. in a deck with a lot of x/1s, i'd use skullclamp; in a deck that wants sac outlets, culling dais and so on.
If you look at the first turn cycle after either Staff of Nin or Mind's Eye ETB I agree with those who say they are different cards. Staff of Nin is a "Set it and forget it" type of card where the table see's you drop 6 mana on a slow drawing card and leaves it alone for a while. Where Mind's Eye is a drop it with mana open to refill your hand as much as possible until someone blows it up. But beyond the political effect of either, I think Mind's Eye is a better draw card in a vacuum (which we all know means nothing).
Staff cost 6 mana and in a full turn cycle draws you 1 card (with a ping). 6 mana-1 card. On the second turn cycle you get another card 6 mana-2 cards, and so on.
Mind's Eye cost 5 mana, but if you play it on the same turn as Staff (6 mana) you get one card on the NEXT upkeep. This is if Mind's eye is played on the same turn the Staff was (6 mana open). 6 mana-1 card. On the second turn cycle you untap all your mana and depending on what you do with it you can get 3+ cards for 3+ mana, so assuming Mind's eye lives for a second cycle (as we did with Staff), them Mind's Eye's card advantage will very quickly overtake the potential of Staff of Nin.
Either way, I play one or the other, or Both in R/W decks or Artifact based Decks because those decks either really need the draw help, or have a synergy with the artifact type. Solid cards in colors without top tier draw options.
Mind's Eye you get value on the next draw step - not YOUR next, the next. Staff is a full turn cycle wait.
Even if Eye gets blown up on your next turn, you've likely netted 3 cards, Staff? 1.
There's honestly 0 comparison between the two for me. In no situation at that point in the game would I rather have a staff of nin. If I see both on the field, Mind's Eye is a much higher profile target, and for good reason, it is insanely more powerful.
Here's the thing, when you NEED cards, you prioritize anything else over getting cards. Mind's Eye has the potential to get you cards before your next turn and to get you more cards than Staff of Nin.
When you cast Staff, you drop it for six mana and it sits there for a whole rotation before it even nets you a card.
It's also EDH, everything is playgroup dependent but if your playgroup isn't super "combo off and kill quick", keeping 3 mana up each turn to net 3 cards is not a huge cost at all. Often times I find myself drawing 2 cards and keeping mana up in case I need it.
It's a good card for decks that lack card advantage, like I don't think I'd pick this over Rhystic Study or a hard draw spell in blue but its been a great card in my Karn, Silver Golem deck.
Both of these cards are massively overrated. Mind's Eye might have been good a long time ago, but it just isn't worth playing anymore. Even in mono-W decks, you have Tax+Rack, Skullclamp, Mentor of the Meek, Mask of Memories, and several other cards that just do it better. All of the other colors have plenty of good draw options and don't need to rely on expensive artifacts for their card advantage.
Tax+Rack is the only card(s) that you mentioned that goes well in any mono white deck. Skullclamp and Mentor of the Meek are both worthless in builds that don't run a lot of small creatures, and mask of memories is only good so long as you can actually hit things. White weenie isn't the only way to play mono white; and in EDH it's probably the worst way to play mono white.
You don't have to play "weenie" to play certain token generators like Elspeths because they provide massive sources of card advantage. Utility creatures like Knight of the White Orchid and Weathered Wayfarer also trigger Mentor, so do most of the hatebears. Skullclamp makes your threats less attractive removal options if you have nothing else to do with it, etc. All of those cards are staples in most white lists.
In mono-white, you do whatever you can because it is very easily the weakest of all color combinations in this format. Even then, I really don't think Mind's Eye or Staff of Nin are worth playing.
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An enigma as vexing as life itself.
I don't think anyone is hating on it, the whole Staff vs Mind's Eye is a bit weird because they function differently even if they have similar effects
Sure
But it seems like such a tempo loss to pay five mana do nothing
The effect is great but while I can certainly see "always wanting to have access it" I also think "there's usually something better I can do"
Not really. Staff gives you one reliable card every turn. Less than Mind's Eye for the same price, but you don't have to pay 1 for each card drawn. You can get more off Mind's Eye, if you're willing to hold 2 or more open.
On phasing:
An enigma as vexing as life itself.
to me it always seemed like one of those cards that seems really good in theory, that everyone says you have to run because its so great... but they don't actually run it at any competitive table and don't realize just how not so great it actually is.
to expound on that: the mana cost is too high, needing to leave 1 up just to draw even one card, conditionally, is also extremely prohibitive. i use to see it a lot back when zendikar was a new set, it didn't really do much then either. these days i see it turn up every so often in artifact based decks (mishra, sharuum, etc) where mostly it just sits there and does nothing because the pilot of that deck would rather be spending mana on other things.
Anything kruphix/seedborn likes the eye.
In a competitive deck both lose out to rhystic study and mystic remora but thats blue. If I was playing red/white decks in need of draw I would probably play both. Red can pitch and weld them both early for draws. White can tutor for them...but Memory Jar would be better. So hyper competitive, neither. Good solid options for card draw, yes. One better than the other? Always deck specific but If I wanted one on the field Id choose the Minds Eye everytime.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
That's what I've been saying.
Plus, there's something for redundancy. If I'm playing anything other than monoblack or colorless, I always include plenty of ways to get rid of artifacts. (In black, I have Gate to Phyrexia, Phyrexian Tribute, a few "target player sacrifices a permanent" cards, and anything colorless. Or Karn, Silver Golem + Gild or something like that if I'm desperate.)
On phasing:
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
but either way, i think the one you'd wanna have at the end is probably dependant on your actual deck. in a deck with a lot of x/1s, i'd use skullclamp; in a deck that wants sac outlets, culling dais and so on.
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Staff cost 6 mana and in a full turn cycle draws you 1 card (with a ping). 6 mana-1 card. On the second turn cycle you get another card 6 mana-2 cards, and so on.
Mind's Eye cost 5 mana, but if you play it on the same turn as Staff (6 mana) you get one card on the NEXT upkeep. This is if Mind's eye is played on the same turn the Staff was (6 mana open). 6 mana-1 card. On the second turn cycle you untap all your mana and depending on what you do with it you can get 3+ cards for 3+ mana, so assuming Mind's eye lives for a second cycle (as we did with Staff), them Mind's Eye's card advantage will very quickly overtake the potential of Staff of Nin.
Either way, I play one or the other, or Both in R/W decks or Artifact based Decks because those decks either really need the draw help, or have a synergy with the artifact type. Solid cards in colors without top tier draw options.
Mind's Eye you get value on the next draw step - not YOUR next, the next. Staff is a full turn cycle wait.
Even if Eye gets blown up on your next turn, you've likely netted 3 cards, Staff? 1.
There's honestly 0 comparison between the two for me. In no situation at that point in the game would I rather have a staff of nin. If I see both on the field, Mind's Eye is a much higher profile target, and for good reason, it is insanely more powerful.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
When you cast Staff, you drop it for six mana and it sits there for a whole rotation before it even nets you a card.
It's also EDH, everything is playgroup dependent but if your playgroup isn't super "combo off and kill quick", keeping 3 mana up each turn to net 3 cards is not a huge cost at all. Often times I find myself drawing 2 cards and keeping mana up in case I need it.
It's a good card for decks that lack card advantage, like I don't think I'd pick this over Rhystic Study or a hard draw spell in blue but its been a great card in my Karn, Silver Golem deck.
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In mono-white, you do whatever you can because it is very easily the weakest of all color combinations in this format. Even then, I really don't think Mind's Eye or Staff of Nin are worth playing.