A few months ago, my friends decided to buy pre-made commander decks. Prior to this, me and my two other friends had been playing the format for nearly a year.
Fast-foward a few games, this individual becomes habitual in complaining that in commander, he doesn't like that he can get so easily controlled, but he said this after someone murdered his commander once. This individual has a habit of getting upset with infinite combos. Infinite combos are not always the most fun, I agree, but the situations didn't nearly warrant complain. The game had dragged on for ages, the person with the infinite combos made a lot of mistakes that could have progressed the game faster using some beaters. One person exiled the card that would have granted him a lot of his infinite combos, and that same player controlled him aggressively.
In the end of that game, the controlling player died at the hands of the individual who complained about it all along. This player then scooped because he said he would "surely lose to infinite combos." The two other players then started hammering the third guy with infinite combos. They would have won... if the individual didn't scoop.
The cycle always goes "Play commander - Moan about being controlled - Moan about infinite combos - Scoop when you feel like you have no chance - ignore people who tell you to stop playing commander - repeat." This person has gone as far as to actually say "I just don't like that whenever I have a win condition on board, someone stops me." To which we pointed out that it would make no sense to let someone have a massive win condition, and that he's actually just complaining because we don't *let* him win intentionally.
It's come to be annoying because this person will complain to himself about everything out there. Our playgroup finds infinite combos fun, he doesn't, and that's fair, but he had multiple times tried to win with commander damage, and then complained that taking control of his commander and attacking him with it was "broken and not fun." He doesn't like *anything*. Then he frequently scoops and basically prevents other players from having any chance of winning.
We want him to stop, but he won't quit the format, and we have no clue why. We tried talking to him about it multiple times and he just changes his reasoning a lot, and acknowledges it. He is still a friend, and we know he isn't trying to be a real Geth's Verdict, so we can't just not let him play if he wants to. We play commander a lot, and it wouldn't be fair that he can't come down because we will be playing commander.
So, what can we say to get him to either enjoy the format or leave the format?
Sounds like my brother, tbh. He's the same way. It's not that he didn't enjoy the format, but he was definitely an aggro player. He was also fairly new to the game itself, though he grasped the rules very well. In his case it was just a matter of experience. I never could convince him to play control or combo, but if he had and seen just how control plays and what it has a hard time with, then he definitely would have had an easier time with his own aggro decks.
First, Where do you play? LGS? College cafeteria? If there's more people around to play with, then he could easily quit without feeling left out.
Second, How experienced is he with MTG in general? Like I stated earlier, It may be just a lack of experience if he's never spent the time and played control to see what it's like, how it plays, and what it's weaknesses are.
Finally, It could just be that he's playing the wrong deck or commander. There's a very large array of generals to chose from and choosing the wrong one or the right one can make a huge difference in how you enjoy the game.
I don't think it's the format your friend doesn't like, it's losing. I mean, there's not much to do about it, it's something he has to deal with himself. If he is really your friend, you could tease him about it, that could make him realize he is acting silly. That usually works in my group for a variety of games, but some people have really soft skin, so I don't know, your call. If he's just some guy you know and play with.. maybe just stop playing with him.
It sounds like your friend is just someone who always want to have it their way. I have had to deal with someone like that before. It gets really draining. They eventually remove the fun from the game for you as well. Let him win a few games, and then complain in a really whiney tone about how the way he won was broken and un-fun. If he doesn't change after a few games like that, then cut your losses and just don't play EDH with him any more. You can still be friends though, just don't introduce the friendship to such a toxic environment.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
He plays a pre-built commander that he made slight modifications to, but we play with an achievement system. This is what got me most angry. He claimed that me and my other friend had these crazy OP decks, but the achievement system prevented us from pulling ANY infinite combos or A-Hole moves. Furthermore, after he left, and we played again, someone who was using Prosh's commander, unmodified and store-bought, won the game fair and square.
I guess we will just have to stop playing EDH with him. He isn't like this in other formats. He still holds to the claim that he doesn't enjoy EDH because our decks are vastly better than his. While that is true, I find it troubling that he can argue this when he was the one that actually screwed over the win for the other people by scooping. Worst of all, during the one game, when I was close to having a Sorin on the field (I was playing without tutors as per the achievements, and was just trying to draw my way through my library then), and my other friend was finding ways to take an extra turn after everyone else's turn (achievements don't prevent this) he decides to focus all his murder cards and destroy artifact/enchantment cards on someone using Nekusar in an unmodified commander, just because he didn't like losing 2 life on his turn.
He plays a pre-built commander that he made slight modifications to, but we play with an achievement system. This is what got me most angry. He claimed that me and my other friend had these crazy OP decks, but the achievement system prevented us from pulling ANY infinite combos or A-Hole moves. Furthermore, after he left, and we played again, someone who was using Prosh's commander, unmodified and store-bought, won the game fair and square.
I guess we will just have to stop playing EDH with him. He isn't like this in other formats. He still holds to the claim that he doesn't enjoy EDH because our decks are vastly better than his. While that is true, I find it troubling that he can argue this when he was the one that actually screwed over the win for the other people by scooping. Worst of all, during the one game, when I was close to having a Sorin on the field (I was playing without tutors as per the achievements, and was just trying to draw my way through my library then), and my other friend was finding ways to take an extra turn after everyone else's turn (achievements don't prevent this) he decides to focus all his murder cards and destroy artifact/enchantment cards on someone using Nekusar in an unmodified commander, just because he didn't like losing 2 life on his turn.
Sounds to me that like you've got the right idea. Your friend just doesn't sound like someone you can please. Your meta sounds very friendly compared to others and even my own. In my meta: infinite combos, tutors and the like are very standard. Everyone has some sort of combo or crazy strategy that can give them the game. The thing is that the rest of our decks are one par with each other for the most part and we can counteract what others are doing.
IMHO, your friend really needs to step back and look at what he is not doing right. If his deck is not up to par, he needs to start there. If he's making bad moves, he needs more practice. Yet, it more sounds like that he just doesn't have the right attitude. Period. Best to simply not play with him in that format. No point in souring friendships in a game.
one thing you could suggest to him is that if he finds infinite combos or whatever exactly niggles him the wrong way, to pack some answers to those niggles. shouldn't be too difficult i imagine, and itd be easier if hes quite experienced in mtg.
but yea i think overall, it just sounds like its just not something that is easily fixed in-game at least. do u know if he actually enjoys the games? or is he playing just 'cuz his mates are playing?
I appreciate all the helpful responses here, and it leads me to another question.
After we talked it out with him, he came out and said he believes he just isn't a fan of the deck, because it is too easily controlled, and that if he had a response to more things, he would enjoy it better.
However, this raises my question. How do I get him to invest into his deck? He has a really bad habit, and it is this: If I have 20 dollars to spend, I'll put 10 towards the current modern deck I am working on, and 10 towards my commander. What he does is spends all 20 on his modern deck.
Is there *anything* I can do to get him to spend his money wiser? He wants to play with us when we play EDH, but he (and others in the group) simply don't sink in *any* money into their decks. Even when my friends and I make direct card suggestions that are 50 cents or less, they don't get cards. They are convinced that they only want to use cards they get in boosters or drafts, but then proceed to not even use those because they are too garbage.
I appreciate all the helpful responses here, and it leads me to another question.
After we talked it out with him, he came out and said he believes he just isn't a fan of the deck, because it is too easily controlled, and that if he had a response to more things, he would enjoy it better.
However, this raises my question. How do I get him to invest into his deck? He has a really bad habit, and it is this: If I have 20 dollars to spend, I'll put 10 towards the current modern deck I am working on, and 10 towards my commander. What he does is spends all 20 on his modern deck.
Is there *anything* I can do to get him to spend his money wiser? He wants to play with us when we play EDH, but he (and others in the group) simply don't sink in *any* money into their decks. Even when my friends and I make direct card suggestions that are 50 cents or less, they don't get cards. They are convinced that they only want to use cards they get in boosters or drafts, but then proceed to not even use those because they are too garbage.
Sad to say, I don't know if there is anything YOU can really do. Your friend sounds like someone who expects instant gratification. He hates the fact that his deck seems to get controlled but refuses to make any changes. Your deck is an expression of you. What you like, strategies you favor, etc. Your friend has to commit to using the deck and if he doesn't like it AT ALL, he should look for a new strategy and deck. Half the thing with a deck IMHO, is finding your niche. But he must put time and effort into it. However, that is ultimately up to him and if he doesn't do it, well...
On to the money thing. You can TRY to stress to him that if he doesn't put even a little money into the deck, it'll NEVER get better. And if he refuses and only spends on Modern, then he should give up on EDH and focus on Modern. If he won't use even a little money on his EDH deck but wants to complain that it isn't working out for him, then he needs to make up his mind. Either he spends time on EDH or he gives up on it because he's honestly not happy.
robmoore675, you seem like a nice person and I give you credit for trying to help your friend, but the simple truth is that he must decide if he actually cares about EDH. If you and others have tried to help and he ignores it, he's a lost cause. If he flat-refuses to try, nothing can be done. Unfortunately, it's that simple.
I really hope something changes and you and your group can get to having fun times in EDH.
I have played for MTG before it was nerd-cool; yes, MTG was even less nerd-cool than today (It was 1993-1996, and Comic books, DC and Marvel collectible cards were the coolest nerd commodity). In all the years of collecting and playing, I went through what are you going through this very time; unfortunately, it was in EDH.
This friend, who I will call John, is a competitive Legacy player and passionate. By passionate, I mean he is the person that will laugh the loudest and enrage the quickest. As years passed, Legacy play in our area dwindled, and he gained responsibilities which cut into his playtime. He turned to EDH. He complained and bemoaned his early experience. He disliked players that lacked threat assessment, he dislike politics, he hated playing for fun, etc. In the end, I provided pointers.
Build a deck that is an extension of oneself. My favorite cards are Balance and Limited Resources; unfortunately, each are banned. My favorite card type is enchantment. When non-Elder Dragons were allowed as commanders, Angus Mackenzie became my Enchantress general. After some waiting, Zur the Enchanter was printed. Today, Zur Denial is my deck of choice.
Invest in your deck. It is like feeding your soul. The more one learn about and feeds it, the more gratifying and complete it is.
Play politician or a dictator. Politicking is more than asking for a scratch on the back. I.e: You are looking for investors for your company. You are in a room of interested investors, but each wants a larger portion of the pie. How do you keep all of them? When you slice this metaphorical pie, you see that making one slice big makes another small. What is the solution? Make the pie bigger. In the end, you get what you want and lose nothing, no one. What did you want in this metaphor? Investors (You win).
Play EDH like a gambling game. Wear the poker face; if you cannot develop one, send misinformation. All things one does during an EDH game is information for your opponents: composure, facial expressions, tone, etc.
Do not complain. Solve the problem.
My playgroup, John and I still play. What is John's favorite card? Show and Tell. What kind of deck did he create? Jhoira of the Ghitu. He does not play politician. No point of playing politician when your cards are on the table and your only goal is to drop wholesale bombs. He can be as manically passionate as he likes because it is his game-plan. He has come to realize that he has not right to act immaturely when people gun him down. He does have his finger on the red button.
Fast-foward a few games, this individual becomes habitual in complaining that in commander, he doesn't like that he can get so easily controlled, but he said this after someone murdered his commander once. This individual has a habit of getting upset with infinite combos. Infinite combos are not always the most fun, I agree, but the situations didn't nearly warrant complain. The game had dragged on for ages, the person with the infinite combos made a lot of mistakes that could have progressed the game faster using some beaters. One person exiled the card that would have granted him a lot of his infinite combos, and that same player controlled him aggressively.
In the end of that game, the controlling player died at the hands of the individual who complained about it all along. This player then scooped because he said he would "surely lose to infinite combos." The two other players then started hammering the third guy with infinite combos. They would have won... if the individual didn't scoop.
The cycle always goes "Play commander - Moan about being controlled - Moan about infinite combos - Scoop when you feel like you have no chance - ignore people who tell you to stop playing commander - repeat." This person has gone as far as to actually say "I just don't like that whenever I have a win condition on board, someone stops me." To which we pointed out that it would make no sense to let someone have a massive win condition, and that he's actually just complaining because we don't *let* him win intentionally.
It's come to be annoying because this person will complain to himself about everything out there. Our playgroup finds infinite combos fun, he doesn't, and that's fair, but he had multiple times tried to win with commander damage, and then complained that taking control of his commander and attacking him with it was "broken and not fun." He doesn't like *anything*. Then he frequently scoops and basically prevents other players from having any chance of winning.
We want him to stop, but he won't quit the format, and we have no clue why. We tried talking to him about it multiple times and he just changes his reasoning a lot, and acknowledges it. He is still a friend, and we know he isn't trying to be a real Geth's Verdict, so we can't just not let him play if he wants to. We play commander a lot, and it wouldn't be fair that he can't come down because we will be playing commander.
So, what can we say to get him to either enjoy the format or leave the format?
First, Where do you play? LGS? College cafeteria? If there's more people around to play with, then he could easily quit without feeling left out.
Second, How experienced is he with MTG in general? Like I stated earlier, It may be just a lack of experience if he's never spent the time and played control to see what it's like, how it plays, and what it's weaknesses are.
Finally, It could just be that he's playing the wrong deck or commander. There's a very large array of generals to chose from and choosing the wrong one or the right one can make a huge difference in how you enjoy the game.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
I guess we will just have to stop playing EDH with him. He isn't like this in other formats. He still holds to the claim that he doesn't enjoy EDH because our decks are vastly better than his. While that is true, I find it troubling that he can argue this when he was the one that actually screwed over the win for the other people by scooping. Worst of all, during the one game, when I was close to having a Sorin on the field (I was playing without tutors as per the achievements, and was just trying to draw my way through my library then), and my other friend was finding ways to take an extra turn after everyone else's turn (achievements don't prevent this) he decides to focus all his murder cards and destroy artifact/enchantment cards on someone using Nekusar in an unmodified commander, just because he didn't like losing 2 life on his turn.
Sounds to me that like you've got the right idea. Your friend just doesn't sound like someone you can please. Your meta sounds very friendly compared to others and even my own. In my meta: infinite combos, tutors and the like are very standard. Everyone has some sort of combo or crazy strategy that can give them the game. The thing is that the rest of our decks are one par with each other for the most part and we can counteract what others are doing.
IMHO, your friend really needs to step back and look at what he is not doing right. If his deck is not up to par, he needs to start there. If he's making bad moves, he needs more practice. Yet, it more sounds like that he just doesn't have the right attitude. Period. Best to simply not play with him in that format. No point in souring friendships in a game.
Hope things improve for you and your friend.
but yea i think overall, it just sounds like its just not something that is easily fixed in-game at least. do u know if he actually enjoys the games? or is he playing just 'cuz his mates are playing?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
After we talked it out with him, he came out and said he believes he just isn't a fan of the deck, because it is too easily controlled, and that if he had a response to more things, he would enjoy it better.
However, this raises my question. How do I get him to invest into his deck? He has a really bad habit, and it is this: If I have 20 dollars to spend, I'll put 10 towards the current modern deck I am working on, and 10 towards my commander. What he does is spends all 20 on his modern deck.
Is there *anything* I can do to get him to spend his money wiser? He wants to play with us when we play EDH, but he (and others in the group) simply don't sink in *any* money into their decks. Even when my friends and I make direct card suggestions that are 50 cents or less, they don't get cards. They are convinced that they only want to use cards they get in boosters or drafts, but then proceed to not even use those because they are too garbage.
This is not a deck issue. It is a character issue.
Keep brewing.
Sad to say, I don't know if there is anything YOU can really do. Your friend sounds like someone who expects instant gratification. He hates the fact that his deck seems to get controlled but refuses to make any changes. Your deck is an expression of you. What you like, strategies you favor, etc. Your friend has to commit to using the deck and if he doesn't like it AT ALL, he should look for a new strategy and deck. Half the thing with a deck IMHO, is finding your niche. But he must put time and effort into it. However, that is ultimately up to him and if he doesn't do it, well...
On to the money thing. You can TRY to stress to him that if he doesn't put even a little money into the deck, it'll NEVER get better. And if he refuses and only spends on Modern, then he should give up on EDH and focus on Modern. If he won't use even a little money on his EDH deck but wants to complain that it isn't working out for him, then he needs to make up his mind. Either he spends time on EDH or he gives up on it because he's honestly not happy.
robmoore675, you seem like a nice person and I give you credit for trying to help your friend, but the simple truth is that he must decide if he actually cares about EDH. If you and others have tried to help and he ignores it, he's a lost cause. If he flat-refuses to try, nothing can be done. Unfortunately, it's that simple.
I really hope something changes and you and your group can get to having fun times in EDH.
I have played for MTG before it was nerd-cool; yes, MTG was even less nerd-cool than today (It was 1993-1996, and Comic books, DC and Marvel collectible cards were the coolest nerd commodity). In all the years of collecting and playing, I went through what are you going through this very time; unfortunately, it was in EDH.
This friend, who I will call John, is a competitive Legacy player and passionate. By passionate, I mean he is the person that will laugh the loudest and enrage the quickest. As years passed, Legacy play in our area dwindled, and he gained responsibilities which cut into his playtime. He turned to EDH. He complained and bemoaned his early experience. He disliked players that lacked threat assessment, he dislike politics, he hated playing for fun, etc. In the end, I provided pointers.
My playgroup, John and I still play. What is John's favorite card? Show and Tell. What kind of deck did he create? Jhoira of the Ghitu. He does not play politician. No point of playing politician when your cards are on the table and your only goal is to drop wholesale bombs. He can be as manically passionate as he likes because it is his game-plan. He has come to realize that he has not right to act immaturely when people gun him down. He does have his finger on the red button.
Keep brewing.