The Green deck has dozens of different ways to get it on the board: Big creatures, little creatures, Tokens, Voltron, Overrun, Craterhoof, etcetera. That's not boring.
There are also dozens of different two- and three-card combos that end the game on their own. What makes that kind of variety boring but the green creature variety interesting?
What I'm getting at is that whenever someone wants an infinite combo, they always go for the "go-to" combo cards. When was the last time you saw a white deck go of with Sun Titan and Banisher Priest/Fiend Hunter with their sac outlet instead of Karmic Guide and Reveillark? That's why it's boring.
Any deck can pump out a bunch of large threats, all unique to their colors while having a great number of things to chose from. This is far more interesting.
I notice you mention the most obvious and played out green win condition in the format as fun. "Oh look, another Craterhoof from the green player! What a shock!" There are a finite number of cards and even less good ones. Sometimes you'll see things more than once.
Then again, I don't really understand the popularity of Craterhoof. Yes, It's fantastic in legacy dredge, Legacy Elfball, and any green Token or Elfball deck in EDH. It really isn't a card that should be in every green deck ever. I've never had a problem dealing with one. I've rarely seen it run in my playgroups. I've never even bothered using mine, then again I've yet to rebuild my Ezuri, Rhys, or Wort decks. To be honest, the only reason I even listed Craterhoof is because I couldn't remember the name of Triumph of the Hordes at the time.
It can be frustrating in that it can largely make everything that happened in the game irrelevant.
(Should I pay life for this?)
(Who should I attack?)
(Should I maze this creature or leave it open in case I get attacked again?)
Well, none of that mattered because someone drew both combo pieces...kay.
You could say the same thing about anything.
Should I counter this?
Can I afford to play a draw spell right now?
Is Boseiju going to get Strip Mined?
Well, none of that mattered because someone cheated out a Blightsteel... kay.
The only difference is one you're expecting to have to interact with, the other you're not. So when one player is putting two or three cards together by tutoring and drawing, red light. Might as well be a horde of 7/7's with evasion. If you've got nothing to do at that point, and it's not just because your deck ran out of gas, then time for a rethink.
In my mind, I am wondering if it's possible to have a 2 hour game with most RU decks without them drawing some way to combo, storm, or just burn the table out. They will have drawn half their library by then, just naturally.
The only difference is one you're expecting to have to interact with, the other you're not. So when one player is putting two or three cards together by tutoring and drawing, red light. Might as well be a horde of 7/7's with evasion. If you've got nothing to do at that point, and it's not just because your deck ran out of gas, then time for a rethink.
Yep. Good threat assessment will tell you the U/R player with a couple rocks on the board that just tutored something is every bit as dangerous as the player with a token horde.
I just wish there were more interesting combos. Everyone's tapped out during the mono-Red deck's turn and they drop Kiki-Jiki with 5 mana left open? Oh, boy. I wonder what their next card will be. The white/X/X deck has Reviellark in the 'yard, a sac outlet on board and plays a Karmic Guide? I wonder what they're going to target. I could keep listing examples, but they're all just as boring.
I think the problem you have is that you are tapped out.
It's this type of logic that makes an entire playgroup start playing control and feeding the popularity of these boring combos. Tapping out is perfectly fine when you have free things like Snuff Out.
And how did that work for the OP?
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I just wish there were more interesting combos. Everyone's tapped out during the mono-Red deck's turn and they drop Kiki-Jiki with 5 mana left open? Oh, boy. I wonder what their next card will be. The white/X/X deck has Reviellark in the 'yard, a sac outlet on board and plays a Karmic Guide? I wonder what they're going to target. I could keep listing examples, but they're all just as boring.
I think the problem you have is that you are tapped out.
It's this type of logic that makes an entire playgroup start playing control and feeding the popularity of these boring combos. Tapping out is perfectly fine when you have free things like Snuff Out.
And how did that work for the OP?
Don't know. Try asking OP.
Either way, tapping out has the tendency of making people think it's safe to play all their things. Free spells have the tendency to make them sad when they do.
A player comboing off for the win in two minutes, maybe. A player comboing off after two hours is a mercy killing.
Amen. My league has a penalty for eliminating opponents before a 45-minute timer goes off. It does favor slower/control decks over aggro decks, but it helps give everyone a chance to actually play the game. (And occasionally people ignore the penalty, eliminating someone early anyway. And the penalty doesn't stop you from attacking opponents or interacting with their board state, only punish you for actually eliminating them.)
Anti-climatic was more like when the UR player casts Epic experiment for x = 13.... then copies it 4 times.. by using the fork effects both originally and then any he reveals.... then completely fails to hit anything of consequence. Quite possibly the most Izzet thing ever to happen.
Any deck can pump out a bunch of large threats, all unique to their colors while having a great number of things to chose from. This is far more interesting.
Creatures are often the most generic (and thus anti-climactic) way to die IMO. Sure "every" color has a bunch of "large threats" but since when has a 5/5 instead of a 6/6 been meaningfully different when it's killing you. "Oh wow you killed me with a Woodfall Primus instead of an Avenger of Zendikar, that sure was more interesting even though both just turned sideways and reduced my life total..." The only thing that makes those two creatures interesting are their effects and how other cards (like say Overrun) interact with said effects (aka how those cards combine, or "combo", to create effects).
I'd take a UR combo kill, even something as "generic" or "overdone" or "simple" as Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity over big dumb creatures turning sideways. Every single time.
Any deck can pump out a bunch of large threats, all unique to their colors while having a great number of things to chose from. This is far more interesting.
Creatures are often the most generic (and thus anti-climactic) way to die IMO. Sure "every" color has a bunch of "large threats" but since when has a 5/5 instead of a 6/6 been meaningfully different when it's killing you. "Oh wow you killed me with a Woodfall Primus instead of an Avenger of Zendikar, that sure was more interesting even though both just turned sideways and reduced my life total..." The only thing that makes those two creatures interesting are their effects and how other cards (like say Overrun) interact with said effects (aka how those cards combine, or "combo", to create effects).
I'd take a UR combo kill, even something as "generic" or "overdone" or "simple" as Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity over big dumb creatures turning sideways. Every single time.
I find it far more interesting to have to answer creatures with a wide array of abilities, like Hexproof, shroud, or Indestructible, than simply throwing a counterspell at a combo piece. The quick scurry to dig up an answer to an Avacyn, Cratterhoof, Akroma, and the like is just far more exciting than digging up a counter or just playing the one's in hand.
The main reason the game was that long probably was because 3 players had cyclonic rifts in hands and another player was playing child of alara dobit was a grind but a very fun and swingy game that seemed everyone had a chance in then izzet guy goes high tide- mana geyser- into "fork" - comet strom for a arbitrarily large amount and ends the game on the spot. Only game we could get in cuz everyone had to leave. So it just felt anti climactic to me was all. I'm a fan of the long grindy games I was playing Sultai after all. Lol. so I can understand why some people disagree.
Any deck can pump out a bunch of large threats, all unique to their colors while having a great number of things to chose from. This is far more interesting.
Creatures are often the most generic (and thus anti-climactic) way to die IMO. Sure "every" color has a bunch of "large threats" but since when has a 5/5 instead of a 6/6 been meaningfully different when it's killing you. "Oh wow you killed me with a Woodfall Primus instead of an Avenger of Zendikar, that sure was more interesting even though both just turned sideways and reduced my life total..." The only thing that makes those two creatures interesting are their effects and how other cards (like say Overrun) interact with said effects (aka how those cards combine, or "combo", to create effects).
I'd take a UR combo kill, even something as "generic" or "overdone" or "simple" as Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity over big dumb creatures turning sideways. Every single time.
I find it far more interesting to have to answer creatures with a wide array of abilities, like Hexproof, shroud, or Indestructible, than simply throwing a counterspell at a combo piece. The quick scurry to dig up an answer to an Avacyn, Cratterhoof, Akroma, and the like is just far more exciting than digging up a counter or just playing the one's in hand.
How is digging for Murder any more meaningful than digging for Cancel?
If it's the cliche 2 card infinites like the bloods and stuff, yeah the only hype those generate is when either me or the leader of my group intercept the infinite in surprising and funny ways. Now combos that require far more luck and finding that right situation that's when it's hype. In the rare event I combo out of nowhere it always is the kind that causes hype. In fact it's a house rule that I get a junk rare every time I break my Ugin jackpot loop record. It's currently 4.
Any deck can pump out a bunch of large threats, all unique to their colors while having a great number of things to chose from. This is far more interesting.
Creatures are often the most generic (and thus anti-climactic) way to die IMO. Sure "every" color has a bunch of "large threats" but since when has a 5/5 instead of a 6/6 been meaningfully different when it's killing you. "Oh wow you killed me with a Woodfall Primus instead of an Avenger of Zendikar, that sure was more interesting even though both just turned sideways and reduced my life total..." The only thing that makes those two creatures interesting are their effects and how other cards (like say Overrun) interact with said effects (aka how those cards combine, or "combo", to create effects).
I'd take a UR combo kill, even something as "generic" or "overdone" or "simple" as Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity over big dumb creatures turning sideways. Every single time.
I find it far more interesting to have to answer creatures with a wide array of abilities, like Hexproof, shroud, or Indestructible, than simply throwing a counterspell at a combo piece. The quick scurry to dig up an answer to an Avacyn, Cratterhoof, Akroma, and the like is just far more exciting than digging up a counter or just playing the one's in hand.
How is digging for Murder any more meaningful than digging for Cancel?
Because Murder can't answer anything with Hexproof, Shroud, Indestructible? I'm the type of person that enjoys the struggle before my control deck stabilizes more than the general "I'm going to counter all of your win conditions. GG?" that comes afterward. Meaning, the more aggro decks I play against and the longer it takes me gain control of the table, the more fun i'll have doing it.
I find the 4+ way control into combo game to be drawn out and boring cause nothing ever really happens until a combo hits the stack and then someone throws the typical generic "Counter target spell" at it and it goes away. At best, you get a small counter war and everyone starts playing all those extra draw spells they've been holding for just that occasion. It's like watching paint dry on a rainy day.
I'm not saying I dislike combo all together and everyone should play aggro. I'm simply going to quote something I said in an earlier post and say that it sums up how I feel about the typical combo deck : "What I'm getting at is that whenever someone wants an infinite combo, they always go for the "go-to" combo cards."
I relish the long game... except I always thought the long game was about 45 minutes. 2 hours is too long. I probably would have scooped ohhhh... about an hour earlier!
I like long games, but I just end up staring at this massive field of lands and artifacts with this feeling of "meh. Now what do I play?" And nothing seems good. You have 20 play options in your hand and its like staring at a plate full of food when you're full. Like having all the buildup done. The nuclear warheads are armed and ready, but you're too bored to push the button. At that point its best to just kill everyone and get it over with, IMO.
How is digging for Murder any more meaningful than digging for Cancel?
Because Murder can't answer anything with Hexproof, Shroud, Indestructible? I'm the type of person that enjoys the struggle before my control deck stabilizes more than the general "I'm going to counter all of your win conditions. GG?" that comes afterward. Meaning, the more aggro decks I play against and the longer it takes me gain control of the table, the more fun i'll have doing it.
And Cancel can't answer anything that's uncounterable, something normally counterable but Boseiju-powered, can't answer much with a Vexing Shusher in play, can't answer anything with a card like City of Solitude, Dosan the Falling Leaf, or Grand Abolisher in play, doesn't help when the opponent resolves Determined, etc...
But what threats a given card can or cannot answer isn't the point. Given Threat A, there exists in your deck an Answer B which can eliminate Threat A if you successfully dig for it. Why is it more interesting for Answer B to be Murder (or Unmake, Chaos Warp, Away, whatever) than it is for Answer B to be Cancel? Answering the threat is answering the threat, regardless of what card does the job.
How is digging for Murder any more meaningful than digging for Cancel?
Because Murder can't answer anything with Hexproof, Shroud, Indestructible? I'm the type of person that enjoys the struggle before my control deck stabilizes more than the general "I'm going to counter all of your win conditions. GG?" that comes afterward. Meaning, the more aggro decks I play against and the longer it takes me gain control of the table, the more fun i'll have doing it.
And Cancel can't answer anything that's uncounterable, something normally counterable but Boseiju-powered, can't answer much with a Vexing Shusher in play, can't answer anything with a card like City of Solitude, Dosan the Falling Leaf, or Grand Abolisher in play, doesn't help when the opponent resolves Determined, etc...
But what threats a given card can or cannot answer isn't the point. Given Threat A, there exists in your deck an Answer B which can eliminate Threat A if you successfully dig for it. Why is it more interesting for Answer B to be Murder (or Unmake, Chaos Warp, Away, whatever) than it is for Answer B to be Cancel? Answering the threat is answering the threat, regardless of what card does the job.
Sssshhhhhhh.
Timmy wants to Tim, you're not going to explain to him why he's wrong.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
I think that combos definitely have a place. Like others have said, when a game runs that long sometimes you just need to end it but no one really just wants to scoop to a game they still think they can win. I have like 14 Commander decks and equally as many 60 card. Sometimes you want a game to end so you can play a different deck or format. I actually designed a deck with 3 glass cannon combos with the sheer purpose of being interactive and easy to disrupt if anyone has the initiative to try/is observant enough to realize what's going on. It can play a decent mid-range value/control game as well (its B/W Teysa) so I don't have to combo and its not stocked with tutors but it has a couple so that if its time to end it I can.
It can be frustrating in that it can largely make everything that happened in the game irrelevant.
(Should I pay life for this?)
(Who should I attack?)
(Should I maze this creature or leave it open in case I get attacked again?)
Well, none of that mattered because someone drew both combo pieces...kay.
I can understand this point. It does have a way of creating an existential bummer on the whole experience. "What was the point of everything I've done to this point?" A lot of combos simply punish players for not running blue which is terrible as well. Blue is a very polarizing color. You shouldn't have to feel bad simply because you don't enjoy a color and you shouldn't just be resigned to losing because of your color choice either. If you want to play Naya (the color combination with some of the worst instant speed removal in EDH) then you shouldn't be resigned to an auto-loss just because of that. "Just play blue" is not a valid response either.
I will say that I think these rules/courtesies should be worked out per playgroup. This mentality drives mine and I'm okay with that. Others might not be.
The Green deck has dozens of different ways to get it on the board: Big creatures, little creatures, Tokens, Voltron, Overrun, Craterhoof, etcetera. That's not boring.
There are also dozens of different two- and three-card combos that end the game on their own. What makes that kind of variety boring but the green creature variety interesting?
What I'm getting at is that whenever someone wants an infinite combo, they always go for the "go-to" combo cards. When was the last time you saw a white deck go of with Sun Titan and Banisher Priest/Fiend Hunter with their sac outlet instead of Karmic Guide and Reveillark? That's why it's boring.
Any deck can pump out a bunch of large threats, all unique to their colors while having a great number of things to chose from. This is far more interesting.
I like that you mentioned this combo because its actually the one I use lol.
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Sometimes... combo is relatively rare in my meta but when someone just places their hand on the table and says they've won it feels a bit more like rummy than magic.
I also generally don't mind when the game goes long provided that the people who have been knocked out have something to do (generally another pod will start). A two hour game certainly sounds like you got a good one though.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
I find games that stretch to 2 hour long are actually tiring to play. 45 mins to 1.5 hrs is a good time for a 4-5 player game for me, that is like on average around 12-14 turns in a game.
There are merits of playing an aggro deck, but as much as one likes turning creature sideways, he too must understand that not everyone shares his or her ideals. A combo that is anti-climactic to a player might be an exciting combo finish for other players. That guy could be thinking, "Wow, facing such huge odds of constantly blocking huge fatties with my meager humans/elves/insert other creature, I finally turn the odds over by pulling off the signature combi in my deck."
Personally I find that turning sideways exclusively is a boring strat, same to common combos like Revillark/Karmic, Niv Mizzet/Curiosity. I like combos that come out of nowhere, like:
Anti-climactic is when you watch the U/G player draw 75% of his deck, have 15 times the board state you do, and then forget to counter your damage doubling spell when you rush in for the kill with your evasive Trampler anyway.
How is digging for Murder any more meaningful than digging for Cancel?
Because Murder can't answer anything with Hexproof, Shroud, Indestructible? I'm the type of person that enjoys the struggle before my control deck stabilizes more than the general "I'm going to counter all of your win conditions. GG?" that comes afterward. Meaning, the more aggro decks I play against and the longer it takes me gain control of the table, the more fun i'll have doing it.
And Cancel can't answer anything that's uncounterable, something normally counterable but Boseiju-powered, can't answer much with a Vexing Shusher in play, can't answer anything with a card like City of Solitude, Dosan the Falling Leaf, or Grand Abolisher in play, doesn't help when the opponent resolves Determined, etc...
But what threats a given card can or cannot answer isn't the point. Given Threat A, there exists in your deck an Answer B which can eliminate Threat A if you successfully dig for it. Why is it more interesting for Answer B to be Murder (or Unmake, Chaos Warp, Away, whatever) than it is for Answer B to be Cancel? Answering the threat is answering the threat, regardless of what card does the job.
Sssshhhhhhh.
Timmy wants to Tim, you're not going to explain to him why he's wrong.
In other words, some people wish Magic were an entirely different game than the one it actually is.
If you want creature-based bash 'em up's, then play Hearthstone. If you want timing, interaction between multiple cards, jockeying to bait out narrowly-tailored answers, then Magic is the game for you.
How is digging for Murder any more meaningful than digging for Cancel?
Because Murder can't answer anything with Hexproof, Shroud, Indestructible? I'm the type of person that enjoys the struggle before my control deck stabilizes more than the general "I'm going to counter all of your win conditions. GG?" that comes afterward. Meaning, the more aggro decks I play against and the longer it takes me gain control of the table, the more fun i'll have doing it.
And Cancel can't answer anything that's uncounterable, something normally counterable but Boseiju-powered, can't answer much with a Vexing Shusher in play, can't answer anything with a card like City of Solitude, Dosan the Falling Leaf, or Grand Abolisher in play, doesn't help when the opponent resolves Determined, etc...
But what threats a given card can or cannot answer isn't the point. Given Threat A, there exists in your deck an Answer B which can eliminate Threat A if you successfully dig for it. Why is it more interesting for Answer B to be Murder (or Unmake, Chaos Warp, Away, whatever) than it is for Answer B to be Cancel? Answering the threat is answering the threat, regardless of what card does the job.
Sssshhhhhhh.
Timmy wants to Tim, you're not going to explain to him why he's wrong.
In other words, some people wish Magic were an entirely different game than the one it actually is.
If you want creature-based bash 'em up's, then play Hearthstone. If you want timing, interaction between multiple cards, jockeying to bait out narrowly-tailored answers, then Magic is the game for you.
For real, people need to play more Hearthstone.
While I do enjoy my Maelstrom wanderer aggro deck, nearly everything I play is Combo control. My entire purpose in this thread was to say that I found typical combo/control decks boring because they have a very high tendency of only using the most popular combos. The only time I see the more competitive combo/control players actually do any deck design is when a new legendary is spoiled, and even then they run all the same combos that they did in every other deck they played of the same colors. I love seeing and even losing to combos I've never seen before because every time I do, I learn something new.
I can see where the OP is coming from. Had a game not long ago that was maybe 30-45 minutes in, pretty entertaining back/forth, with all of us seemingly playing lower powered decks (the people who started the game were playing with precons and the game was "advertised" as such) that allowed for a game where the smaller decisions actually mattered more. Then one guy plays Defense of the Heart...it gets countered. Next turn he plays Tooth and Nail, no one has the counter, and he just wins on the spot with a combo. Definitely made the whole rest of the game just feel like a waste of time, and he got talked to about it afterwards.
It's really all about understanding the context. If we say we are playing with powered down decks don't be "that guy" and T+N into an instant win. You do that again and you won't be allowed into another game with us. OTOH if we are playing more competitive decks then by all means, bring your boring combo.
I'm not seeing the argument that combo make game decisions unimportant. Drawing that extra card, having that extra mana, having that extra life (perhaps then used to pay for more cards/mana) might indeed be the difference between breaking up the combo or losing (or from the other side of the equation, working out every advantage might be the key to getting your win in time not to die/be disrupted). And it's not like the little details matter any more/less when it's a hoard of creatures stomping in to kill you instead of T&N. You either have the answer to those creatures or you don't.
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Then again, I don't really understand the popularity of Craterhoof. Yes, It's fantastic in legacy dredge, Legacy Elfball, and any green Token or Elfball deck in EDH. It really isn't a card that should be in every green deck ever. I've never had a problem dealing with one. I've rarely seen it run in my playgroups. I've never even bothered using mine, then again I've yet to rebuild my Ezuri, Rhys, or Wort decks. To be honest, the only reason I even listed Craterhoof is because I couldn't remember the name of Triumph of the Hordes at the time.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
You could say the same thing about anything.
Should I counter this?
Can I afford to play a draw spell right now?
Is Boseiju going to get Strip Mined?
Well, none of that mattered because someone cheated out a Blightsteel... kay.
The only difference is one you're expecting to have to interact with, the other you're not. So when one player is putting two or three cards together by tutoring and drawing, red light. Might as well be a horde of 7/7's with evasion. If you've got nothing to do at that point, and it's not just because your deck ran out of gas, then time for a rethink.
In my mind, I am wondering if it's possible to have a 2 hour game with most RU decks without them drawing some way to combo, storm, or just burn the table out. They will have drawn half their library by then, just naturally.
Yep. Good threat assessment will tell you the U/R player with a couple rocks on the board that just tutored something is every bit as dangerous as the player with a token horde.
And how did that work for the OP?
Don't know. Try asking OP.
Either way, tapping out has the tendency of making people think it's safe to play all their things. Free spells have the tendency to make them sad when they do.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I'd take a UR combo kill, even something as "generic" or "overdone" or "simple" as Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity over big dumb creatures turning sideways. Every single time.
I find it far more interesting to have to answer creatures with a wide array of abilities, like Hexproof, shroud, or Indestructible, than simply throwing a counterspell at a combo piece. The quick scurry to dig up an answer to an Avacyn, Cratterhoof, Akroma, and the like is just far more exciting than digging up a counter or just playing the one's in hand.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Because Murder can't answer anything with Hexproof, Shroud, Indestructible? I'm the type of person that enjoys the struggle before my control deck stabilizes more than the general "I'm going to counter all of your win conditions. GG?" that comes afterward. Meaning, the more aggro decks I play against and the longer it takes me gain control of the table, the more fun i'll have doing it.
I find the 4+ way control into combo game to be drawn out and boring cause nothing ever really happens until a combo hits the stack and then someone throws the typical generic "Counter target spell" at it and it goes away. At best, you get a small counter war and everyone starts playing all those extra draw spells they've been holding for just that occasion. It's like watching paint dry on a rainy day.
I'm not saying I dislike combo all together and everyone should play aggro. I'm simply going to quote something I said in an earlier post and say that it sums up how I feel about the typical combo deck : "What I'm getting at is that whenever someone wants an infinite combo, they always go for the "go-to" combo cards."
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
I like long games, but I just end up staring at this massive field of lands and artifacts with this feeling of "meh. Now what do I play?" And nothing seems good. You have 20 play options in your hand and its like staring at a plate full of food when you're full. Like having all the buildup done. The nuclear warheads are armed and ready, but you're too bored to push the button. At that point its best to just kill everyone and get it over with, IMO.
Nicol Bolas Dragon Dick
Hanna, Ship's Navigator Heart-attack Stax
Oona, Queen of the Fae Fairy Dance
Vhati Il-Dal Tree of Woe
Scion of the Ur-Dragon Durgensturm
Jolrael, Empress of Beasts Jamuraa's Army
Liliana, Heretical Healer Rise from your Graves and Proliferate
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Angelic Judgment [
But what threats a given card can or cannot answer isn't the point. Given Threat A, there exists in your deck an Answer B which can eliminate Threat A if you successfully dig for it. Why is it more interesting for Answer B to be Murder (or Unmake, Chaos Warp, Away, whatever) than it is for Answer B to be Cancel? Answering the threat is answering the threat, regardless of what card does the job.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Sssshhhhhhh.
Timmy wants to Tim, you're not going to explain to him why he's wrong.
I can understand this point. It does have a way of creating an existential bummer on the whole experience. "What was the point of everything I've done to this point?" A lot of combos simply punish players for not running blue which is terrible as well. Blue is a very polarizing color. You shouldn't have to feel bad simply because you don't enjoy a color and you shouldn't just be resigned to losing because of your color choice either. If you want to play Naya (the color combination with some of the worst instant speed removal in EDH) then you shouldn't be resigned to an auto-loss just because of that. "Just play blue" is not a valid response either.
I will say that I think these rules/courtesies should be worked out per playgroup. This mentality drives mine and I'm okay with that. Others might not be.
I like that you mentioned this combo because its actually the one I use lol.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
I also generally don't mind when the game goes long provided that the people who have been knocked out have something to do (generally another pod will start). A two hour game certainly sounds like you got a good one though.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
There are merits of playing an aggro deck, but as much as one likes turning creature sideways, he too must understand that not everyone shares his or her ideals. A combo that is anti-climactic to a player might be an exciting combo finish for other players. That guy could be thinking, "Wow, facing such huge odds of constantly blocking huge fatties with my meager humans/elves/insert other creature, I finally turn the odds over by pulling off the signature combi in my deck."
Personally I find that turning sideways exclusively is a boring strat, same to common combos like Revillark/Karmic, Niv Mizzet/Curiosity. I like combos that come out of nowhere, like:
in my Daretti, killing opponents with multiple Burnished Hart + Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle triggers, then Zuran Orb + Elixir of Immortality the mountains back into deck and do it all over again for 12 valakut activations in a turn.
or
in my Oloro, attack with a Children of Korlis. Opponent see the weak children and let it go through only to be hit with a Hatred children. Followed by killing everyone else with a Triskelion fueled with Unspeakable Symbol + Tainted Sigil as a backup battery.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Anti-climactic is when you watch the U/G player draw 75% of his deck, have 15 times the board state you do, and then forget to counter your damage doubling spell when you rush in for the kill with your evasive Trampler anyway.
Hidetsugu - Combo Damage
Ezuri - Elfball
Theorycrafting:
Selvala - "A hunter must hunt."
Selvala - Budget
In other words, some people wish Magic were an entirely different game than the one it actually is.
If you want creature-based bash 'em up's, then play Hearthstone. If you want timing, interaction between multiple cards, jockeying to bait out narrowly-tailored answers, then Magic is the game for you.
For real, people need to play more Hearthstone.
While I do enjoy my Maelstrom wanderer aggro deck, nearly everything I play is Combo control. My entire purpose in this thread was to say that I found typical combo/control decks boring because they have a very high tendency of only using the most popular combos. The only time I see the more competitive combo/control players actually do any deck design is when a new legendary is spoiled, and even then they run all the same combos that they did in every other deck they played of the same colors. I love seeing and even losing to combos I've never seen before because every time I do, I learn something new.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
It's really all about understanding the context. If we say we are playing with powered down decks don't be "that guy" and T+N into an instant win. You do that again and you won't be allowed into another game with us. OTOH if we are playing more competitive decks then by all means, bring your boring combo.