If the "good" commander exclusive cards are just cost-efficient or unique removal, then I really must reiterate that development needs to focus on how this format actually works.
While many of the created-for-commander cards may not be staples, there are more than a few that help with how 'the format actually works'. Commander color mana fixing, utility lands, etc all help the format a lot.
And really, you can't exclude the Commanders when they're the very thing that makes the biggest difference between decks. The three Commander products so far have introduced 35 new commanders, more than half of which see regular play, and the majority of which will show up from time to time.
And, frankly, it's taken Wizards some time to get into a groove. Yes, we're going to have cycles of 'meh' multiplayer cards, but not every card is going to be designed for competitive players, and they shouldn't be. I think the precons have done a fine job of what they should be doing: reprinting useful older cards, introducing new commanders, supplying some needed utility and (most importantly) introducing new players to the format.
Each product gets slightly better (especially in terms of playable created-for-commander cards), so I'm hopeful for C15.
Design works like 1 or 2 years in advance. With the new commander products, do you think we will see the return of Planeswalkers and story-wise legendary creatures?
Design works like 1 or 2 years in advance. With the new commander products, do you think we will see the return of Planeswalkers and story-wise legendary creatures?
Design works 1-2 years out for main sets. I think the turnaround is shorter for supplementary products.
And really, you can't exclude the Commanders when they're the very thing that makes the biggest difference between decks. The three Commander products so far have introduced 35 new commanders, more than half of which see regular play, and the majority of which will show up from time to time.
You are right that they are using these to introduce new players to the format as an important development goal, but from the power level of the cards it really looks like that is the only goal of these decks - some budget design with the purpose of printing low-power cards to catch a new-to-the-format players attention. Having one or two cards per preconstructed deck that is of any value to an average commander player makes it not worth the purchase.
I feel that paying $30+ for two new legendary cards + 98 extra cards with questionable value is the issue of the previous precons, and where development needs to focus their attention.
I'm not trying to make an argument about buying singles vs the precon, but an argument about how valuable is a precon to any player (edh newbie and up). In the long run, realisticly, the prevous precon's just are not valuable. How many threads in this forum do you see people stating that they got the pre-con and they are ready to upgrade their deck? Most cards in these precon's will have immediately better replacement options, so even these specialized commanders don't fit in their own deck.
Landfixing is a sour point too. Command Tower is nice, but after 20 years of mtg cards being printed, fixing colors can be done on a sever budget, offering more room for better utility. Opal Palace is cute, but rarely worth an inclusion. Myriad Landscape is a unique example, but most utility lands in this format are not from the commander set(s).
Again not trying to argue, just stating my opinion - these precon's need to be designed for the actual format with less generic clutter and reprints of $.10 cent cards, or possibly just make another Commanders Arsenal so the non-newbie players can have some valuable toys.
i think part of the problem is that the decks are created with all 3 possible commadners in mind. there basicly are cards that fit one fothe 3 commanders. and when the commanders dont follow the same strategy, some cards are simply not needed for the deck (prime example imo beeing Political Puppets with Ruhan and Zedruu, one beeing the stomper, the other beeing the laid back political girl)
I feel they already attempted this with Nahiri, the Lithomancer. Her abilities are all over the place, dictating a deck somewhere between equipment support and token generation (two archetypes that are not very compatible), with an out-of-reach ultimate that is made useless by a targetable bounce. IMO the design on her fails really hard. If she had some other white attribute (like enchantment removal) instead of the token generation, or instead of the equipment tech had temporary creature buffs or some lord emblem to make the tokens useful, she would be seeing more play.
The direction that most of last years preconstructed decks took were pretty much erratic.
There was an underlying theme of old important character in every precon...except for mono-black, which got two characters residing on zendikar. I get that they wanted to introduce Oby Nicholas, but then why Drana, who was already printed as a foil in an earlier precon? Volrath the Fallen would have been an ideal inclusion over Drana, and wouldn't have hurt on anyones wallet.
Likewise, if development were ever going directly support a mono-color'ed deck, specifically making unique mono-color EDH supporting cards, last years pre-constructed decks would have been the time to see this. You would think that if your making a mono-color deck than there would be some benefit for running 30+ basics of the same type. Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle comes to mind - a card that was not included in the mono-red precon. Designing something as simple as this supporting land for the other 4 colors would have been an ideal inclusion for a series of pre-con's that are all mono-color.
(and yes I understand that using valakut as an example might not be the best in regards to other current lands like Cabal Coffers. Still... oddly enough each 2014 precon came with a ghost quarter.)
I feel that paying $30+ for two new legendary cards + 98 extra cards with questionable value is the issue of the previous precons, and where development needs to focus their attention.
I hate to chop up posts, but that one was long and I only wanted to comment on this bit. I think you are wrong here unless you mean specifically just the last set (monocolored). I wish I could hop back to when the first run were printed and buy up a bunch of them, especially Kaalia because she goes for around $30 now.
For some reason, all magic sealed product goes way up in price over time. Buying a booster box and sitting on it for 5 years (sometimes a lot shorter) can net you quite a few pretty pennies. Same for the prebuilt decks. If you keep them sealed, they generally tend towards a steady climb in price. Even if you crack them open, a large number of cards in them are unlikely to get a reprint and will just keep climbing in price. Like the generals, they occasionally get judge foils but are highly unlikely to be reprinted after that so their price climbs.
And a more general comment, you seem to want to argue that since they don't have huge initial monetary value that they hold no value and/or shouldn't be bought. I think it's not that linear. These are HUGELY valuable to newer players who don't have the card pool to make a commander deck. As you move up in experience, they have slightly lesser value due to your growing card pool and/or they competitiveness of your group. However, I know I'm not alone in the opinion that it's fun to spend a week or two every year bashing these pre-builts into each other. When you get even further, they have value for people that want modern border reprints or for people that don't like to buy online and want easier access to hard to find older cards, often niche commons and uncommons. Even further, if you treat them as an investment, they just gain value as time goes on.
Also, back to the idea of them not printing staples, I don't think thats a bad thing. I love to see that they are printing good utility/niche cards like Comeuppance instead of objectively powerful cards that become staples. I love that staples give a nice start to building a deck in a given color, but I sometimes get tired of seeing Sol Ring every game. (also, I noticed recently that I have 10 copies of sol ring... )
Edit: apparently I lied about only wanting to comment on one bit. Sorry, got a touch carried away
If the "good" commander exclusive cards are just cost-efficient or unique removal, then I really must reiterate that development needs to focus on how this format actually works.
While many of the created-for-commander cards may not be staples, there are more than a few that help with how 'the format actually works'. Commander color mana fixing, utility lands, etc all help the format a lot.
And really, you can't exclude the Commanders when they're the very thing that makes the biggest difference between decks. The three Commander products so far have introduced 35 new commanders, more than half of which see regular play, and the majority of which will show up from time to time.
And, frankly, it's taken Wizards some time to get into a groove. Yes, we're going to have cycles of 'meh' multiplayer cards, but not every card is going to be designed for competitive players, and they shouldn't be. I think the precons have done a fine job of what they should be doing: reprinting useful older cards, introducing new commanders, supplying some needed utility and (most importantly) introducing new players to the format.
Each product gets slightly better (especially in terms of playable created-for-commander cards), so I'm hopeful for C15.
I think the problem with their political cards is that most of them have been of the Group Hug variety, and less of the actual political variety; We need more stuff like the Vow of cycle, and less of the Join Forces one.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
I can see a point to what you have said, but there have been a few 'staple' cards I think. The first to come to mind is Toxic Deluge which is a card I would run in all of my black decks (only actually 3 right now) if I had enough copies. It is a solid sweeper that occasionally offers complete blowout chances. Other than that, we got Living Death for artifacts in Scrap Mastery that has become a solid card in the right deck and gave an amount of reach and legitimacy to an archetype that needed it. I don't have a list of new cards from precons in front of me, those are just two that I play with that I thought of.
Additionally, I have noticed that I tend to use a lot of the cards from the precons in first drafts of decks and sometimes they stick around for a while. I think this type thing is more the intent. They are supposed to be like any of the other prebuilt decks, decently solid lists that are great to get someone started into the format and offer lots of room for players to expand on them while at the same time helping to add to their collection various styles of cards to assist in building other decks.
Beyond the fact that a few people mentioned a fair number of good cards that came out of the Commander products, you have to remember that there is twenty years of cards, lots of them powerful and expensive, that the precons have to compete with. And Wizards isn't dumb. They know what would happen if they printed another Mana Drain, Jitte, or Imperial Recruiter. So they have to show restraint with what they print. And quite frankly, do you really want them to print something which instantly becomes a staple, jumps in price, and makes everyone who didn't buy that particular deck as soon as it came out feel bad?
And quite frankly, do you really want them to print something which instantly becomes a staple, jumps in price, and makes everyone who didn't buy that particular deck as soon as it came out feel bad?
All they need to do is print according to demand to prevent prices from getting out of control. That and reprint the chase card soon.
And a more general comment, you seem to want to argue that since they don't have huge initial monetary value that they hold no value and/or shouldn't be bought.
I actually don't really care about the monetary value of what the decks have to offer. I understand that these precon's will never come with a grim monolith. What I think is terrible although is that something like armistice was reprinted and they chose to waste a rare-spot for it.
It feels like there is very little effort done for crafting a deck that can compete with anything other than another precon. I built a friend a $30 budget edh deck specifically because they didn't want to spend $30 on what cards were spoiled in the 2014 decklists. My rubbish little $30 deck has proven to stand up to most of our playgroups multi-tiered decks, but also consistently obliterate anyone who plays the precon against it.
The irony is that I am hardly as experienced of an EDH player as some of my other buddies. My rubbish budget deck has so much room for improvement, and possibly cheaper than what I invested into it. There are so many good yet very affordable cards that could be put into these precon's. Devastation Tide, Evacuation, and Wash Out seem like pretty obvious inclusions for less than a $ rare. But instead Distorting Wake gets a rare spot.
This is sort of hard to really explain in a very short statement. But this is what I want out of the 2015 decks - an actually thematic deck with not specifically terrible card choices. A budget reprint can be just as effective as a non-budget reprint, but including low-powered cards on purpose is not how to make a player better at the game. Developing "commander exclusive" cards that are rarely used in your average commander deck is not going to entice many to purchase a product.
Beyond the fact that a few people mentioned a fair number of good cards that came out of the Commander products, you have to remember that there is twenty years of cards, lots of them powerful and expensive, that the precons have to compete with. And Wizards isn't dumb. They know what would happen if they printed another Mana Drain, Jitte, or Imperial Recruiter. So they have to show restraint with what they print. And quite frankly, do you really want them to print something which instantly becomes a staple, jumps in price, and makes everyone who didn't buy that particular deck as soon as it came out feel bad?
This is sort of hard to really explain in a very short statement. But this is what I want out of the 2015 decks - an actually thematic deck with not specifically terrible card choices. A budget reprint can be just as effective as a non-budget reprint, but including low-powered cards on purpose is not how to make a player better at the game. Developing "commander exclusive" cards that are rarely used in your average commander deck is not going to entice many to purchase a product.
Well, to be fair, Wash out did get a commander 2013 reprint.
And as much as I would like cool heavily thematic decks that only had cards I personally loved and wanted, I recognize that as a terrible business model. If wizards makes decks that can do a few different types of things, they will attract more people to buy the deck. Thus making more money. Additionally, I like that a beginner can get a new prebuilt, play it, then decide they like a certain aspect of it and spend a little money to make the deck do that more. I feel like it makes these decks better learning tools. It also affords them the chance to reprint more cards of varying effect types. Based on that, I think this model of product creation really serves them well. It attracts more players thus making them more money, it helps teach newer players better thus getting more people into the game, and it lets them reprint stuff to benefit a larger number of older/more experienced players thus giving service to their loyal customers. That sounds like not only a great plan to me, but a fantastic business model.
it lets them reprint stuff to benefit a larger number of older/more experienced players thus giving service to their loyal customers. That sounds like not only a great plan to me, but a fantastic business model.
What you've described is a fantastic model. But as one of those older players I'm still waiting for these important reprints.
it lets them reprint stuff to benefit a larger number of older/more experienced players thus giving service to their loyal customers. That sounds like not only a great plan to me, but a fantastic business model.
What you've described is a fantastic model. But as one of those older players I'm still waiting for these important reprints.
Just off the top of my head I recall Karmic Guide getting a reprint which was great because they were really hard to find in my area. And you already mentioned Wurmcoil Engine which was nice to get a touch more availability since all the modern tron players snapped them all up. There have been various nice P3K reprints. Some things like Adarkar Valkyrie weren't insanely expensive before and you could find them, but these reprints made them so much easier to get. I'm struggling a bit to think of individual cards that were really hard to find before that got easier after reprints, but there have been a ton that just went from moderately difficult to find to easy and cheap to grab anywhere. Obviously this does benefit the players who are experienced but still have limited collection or (in my case) don't have an LGS within a 2 hour drive. But, I know quite a few very experienced players that refuse to buy online and were happy to see easy access to strange difficult to find cards.
I don't know whether to hope or not hope for enemy fetches in this set. On one hand, any reprint is great as these are as good or better in EDH than Modern or Legacy - a Modern deck can run four Overgrown Tombs, but its EDH equivalent can only run one - it can, however, run seven fetches that will get an Overgrown Tomb. On the other hand it will inflate the price of what's essentially an intro-to-the-format product.
I don't know whether to hope or not hope for enemy fetches in this set. On one hand, any reprint is great as these are as good or better in EDH than Modern or Legacy - a Modern deck can run four Overgrown Tombs, but its EDH equivalent can only run one - it can, however, run seven fetches that will get an Overgrown Tomb. On the other hand it will inflate the price of what's essentially an intro-to-the-format product.
What would most likely happen is that all the 60 card players would quickly scoop up the decks, especially the R/U ones, driving the prices up. If they did it to an extent where WotC did at least three print runs to ensure that we got them also, it would make the prices of anything else in the set that wasn't a chase card plummet. Eventually we would be able to get the rest of the cards on the secondary market for cheap. But that's not what Wizards wants. They want us to be able to buy the precon and play it how it was meant to be played.
[quote from="spike4972 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/621709-commander-2015?comment=145"]
It feels like there is very little effort done for crafting a deck that can compete with anything other than another precon. I built a friend a $30 budget edh deck specifically because they didn't want to spend $30 on what cards were spoiled in the 2014 decklists. My rubbish little $30 deck has proven to stand up to most of our playgroups multi-tiered decks, but also consistently obliterate anyone who plays the precon against it.
The problem, and the reason why your deck trounces most precons, is that you built around one commander, where as Precons have to balance three. What works for Animar, Soul of Elements doesn't work for Riku of Two Reflections, and what works for them doesn't work for Intet, the Dreamer.
Where as you have a very focused package, they simply can't do that with Precons.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
[quote from="spike4972 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/621709-commander-2015?comment=145"]
It feels like there is very little effort done for crafting a deck that can compete with anything other than another precon. I built a friend a $30 budget edh deck specifically because they didn't want to spend $30 on what cards were spoiled in the 2014 decklists. My rubbish little $30 deck has proven to stand up to most of our playgroups multi-tiered decks, but also consistently obliterate anyone who plays the precon against it.
The problem, and the reason why your deck trounces most precons, is that you built around one commander, where as Precons have to balance three. What works for Animar, Soul of Elements doesn't work for Riku of Two Reflections, and what works for them doesn't work for Intet, the Dreamer.
Where as you have a very focused package, they simply can't do that with Precons.
</blockquote>
How right you are. I still have the Baseline Kaalia which is commons/uncommons plus the commander only listed in my Primer. It too would thoroughly trounce any precon deck for those same reasons.
[quote from="spike4972 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/621709-commander-2015?comment=145"]
It feels like there is very little effort done for crafting a deck that can compete with anything other than another precon. I built a friend a $30 budget edh deck specifically because they didn't want to spend $30 on what cards were spoiled in the 2014 decklists. My rubbish little $30 deck has proven to stand up to most of our playgroups multi-tiered decks, but also consistently obliterate anyone who plays the precon against it.
The problem, and the reason why your deck trounces most precons, is that you built around one commander, where as Precons have to balance three. What works for Animar, Soul of Elements doesn't work for Riku of Two Reflections, and what works for them doesn't work for Intet, the Dreamer.
Where as you have a very focused package, they simply can't do that with Precons.
There are 11 power 5 or higher creatures for maya to target (out of 22), 7 cards that produce tokens for gahiji and a grant total of 2 cards that mention +1/+1 counters (opal palace and curse of predation).
c13 naya precon has marath, will of the wild, Mayael the Anima and Gahiji, Honored One.
There are 11 power 5 or higher creatures for maya to target (out of 22), 7 cards that produce tokens for gahiji and a grant total of 2 cards that mention +1/+1 counters (opal palace and curse of predation).
I just don't see any balance in this deck.
Exactly. The precons are built so that you have a few different options of generals you can try out and hopefully fall in love with one of them. Then there is room built in for you to remove the cards which don't have synergy and add cards that do.
Personally, from the Marath deck I liked Gahiji in a beast tribal shell with token support. In a nutshell, he was like Stonebrow, Krosan Hero if Stonebrow had access to W (by that I mean he had access to all the same tricks, the same synergies like extra combat, but more options). Though Marath is both objectively and universally better. They shoulda made Gahiji cost RGW too - that'd have been pushed, but would make up for the design implying they want to send you in two different directions).
Sylvan Safekeeper is a fantastic card and was my favorite re-print in the set. Also because it's pretty.
It's not a very good card for EDH in my opinion especially if your meta is filed with Wraths, although I will admit that the synergy with Titania, Protector of Argoth is quite saucy. Throw in a Flagstones of Trokair or Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai and you can even get some added value out of the deal. I just don't think its good enough outside of the green pre-con deck it comes in.
And I agree that the new art is better than the original Olle Radde riding a Spider art from Judgment.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
Sylvan Safekeeper is a fantastic card and was my favorite re-print in the set. Also because it's pretty.
It's not a very good card for EDH in my opinion especially if your meta is filed with Wraths, although I will admit that the synergy with Titania, Protector of Argoth is quite saucy. Throw in a Flagstones of Trokair or Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai and you can even get some added value out of the deal. I just don't think its good enough outside of the green pre-con deck it comes in.
And I agree that the new art is better than the original Olle Radde riding a Spider art from Judgment.
It's actually quite good in Saffi, Roon, Karametra, and my Mimeoplasm. I think it's underrated. In fact, it ends games for me often.
And really, you can't exclude the Commanders when they're the very thing that makes the biggest difference between decks. The three Commander products so far have introduced 35 new commanders, more than half of which see regular play, and the majority of which will show up from time to time.
And, frankly, it's taken Wizards some time to get into a groove. Yes, we're going to have cycles of 'meh' multiplayer cards, but not every card is going to be designed for competitive players, and they shouldn't be. I think the precons have done a fine job of what they should be doing: reprinting useful older cards, introducing new commanders, supplying some needed utility and (most importantly) introducing new players to the format.
Each product gets slightly better (especially in terms of playable created-for-commander cards), so I'm hopeful for C15.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
But yeah, I certainly hope so.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
You are right that they are using these to introduce new players to the format as an important development goal, but from the power level of the cards it really looks like that is the only goal of these decks - some budget design with the purpose of printing low-power cards to catch a new-to-the-format players attention. Having one or two cards per preconstructed deck that is of any value to an average commander player makes it not worth the purchase.
I feel that paying $30+ for two new legendary cards + 98 extra cards with questionable value is the issue of the previous precons, and where development needs to focus their attention.
I'm not trying to make an argument about buying singles vs the precon, but an argument about how valuable is a precon to any player (edh newbie and up). In the long run, realisticly, the prevous precon's just are not valuable. How many threads in this forum do you see people stating that they got the pre-con and they are ready to upgrade their deck? Most cards in these precon's will have immediately better replacement options, so even these specialized commanders don't fit in their own deck.
Landfixing is a sour point too. Command Tower is nice, but after 20 years of mtg cards being printed, fixing colors can be done on a sever budget, offering more room for better utility. Opal Palace is cute, but rarely worth an inclusion. Myriad Landscape is a unique example, but most utility lands in this format are not from the commander set(s).
Again not trying to argue, just stating my opinion - these precon's need to be designed for the actual format with less generic clutter and reprints of $.10 cent cards, or possibly just make another Commanders Arsenal so the non-newbie players can have some valuable toys.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
I feel they already attempted this with Nahiri, the Lithomancer. Her abilities are all over the place, dictating a deck somewhere between equipment support and token generation (two archetypes that are not very compatible), with an out-of-reach ultimate that is made useless by a targetable bounce. IMO the design on her fails really hard. If she had some other white attribute (like enchantment removal) instead of the token generation, or instead of the equipment tech had temporary creature buffs or some lord emblem to make the tokens useful, she would be seeing more play.
The direction that most of last years preconstructed decks took were pretty much erratic.
There was an underlying theme of old important character in every precon...except for mono-black, which got two characters residing on zendikar. I get that they wanted to introduce Oby Nicholas, but then why Drana, who was already printed as a foil in an earlier precon? Volrath the Fallen would have been an ideal inclusion over Drana, and wouldn't have hurt on anyones wallet.
Likewise, if development were ever going directly support a mono-color'ed deck, specifically making unique mono-color EDH supporting cards, last years pre-constructed decks would have been the time to see this. You would think that if your making a mono-color deck than there would be some benefit for running 30+ basics of the same type. Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle comes to mind - a card that was not included in the mono-red precon. Designing something as simple as this supporting land for the other 4 colors would have been an ideal inclusion for a series of pre-con's that are all mono-color.
(and yes I understand that using valakut as an example might not be the best in regards to other current lands like Cabal Coffers. Still... oddly enough each 2014 precon came with a ghost quarter.)
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
I hate to chop up posts, but that one was long and I only wanted to comment on this bit. I think you are wrong here unless you mean specifically just the last set (monocolored). I wish I could hop back to when the first run were printed and buy up a bunch of them, especially Kaalia because she goes for around $30 now.
For some reason, all magic sealed product goes way up in price over time. Buying a booster box and sitting on it for 5 years (sometimes a lot shorter) can net you quite a few pretty pennies. Same for the prebuilt decks. If you keep them sealed, they generally tend towards a steady climb in price. Even if you crack them open, a large number of cards in them are unlikely to get a reprint and will just keep climbing in price. Like the generals, they occasionally get judge foils but are highly unlikely to be reprinted after that so their price climbs.
And a more general comment, you seem to want to argue that since they don't have huge initial monetary value that they hold no value and/or shouldn't be bought. I think it's not that linear. These are HUGELY valuable to newer players who don't have the card pool to make a commander deck. As you move up in experience, they have slightly lesser value due to your growing card pool and/or they competitiveness of your group. However, I know I'm not alone in the opinion that it's fun to spend a week or two every year bashing these pre-builts into each other. When you get even further, they have value for people that want modern border reprints or for people that don't like to buy online and want easier access to hard to find older cards, often niche commons and uncommons. Even further, if you treat them as an investment, they just gain value as time goes on.
Also, back to the idea of them not printing staples, I don't think thats a bad thing. I love to see that they are printing good utility/niche cards like Comeuppance instead of objectively powerful cards that become staples. I love that staples give a nice start to building a deck in a given color, but I sometimes get tired of seeing Sol Ring every game. (also, I noticed recently that I have 10 copies of sol ring... )
Edit: apparently I lied about only wanting to comment on one bit. Sorry, got a touch carried away
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
I think the problem with their political cards is that most of them have been of the Group Hug variety, and less of the actual political variety; We need more stuff like the Vow of cycle, and less of the Join Forces one.
Beyond the fact that a few people mentioned a fair number of good cards that came out of the Commander products, you have to remember that there is twenty years of cards, lots of them powerful and expensive, that the precons have to compete with. And Wizards isn't dumb. They know what would happen if they printed another Mana Drain, Jitte, or Imperial Recruiter. So they have to show restraint with what they print. And quite frankly, do you really want them to print something which instantly becomes a staple, jumps in price, and makes everyone who didn't buy that particular deck as soon as it came out feel bad?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
All they need to do is print according to demand to prevent prices from getting out of control. That and reprint the chase card soon.
I actually don't really care about the monetary value of what the decks have to offer. I understand that these precon's will never come with a grim monolith. What I think is terrible although is that something like armistice was reprinted and they chose to waste a rare-spot for it.
It feels like there is very little effort done for crafting a deck that can compete with anything other than another precon. I built a friend a $30 budget edh deck specifically because they didn't want to spend $30 on what cards were spoiled in the 2014 decklists. My rubbish little $30 deck has proven to stand up to most of our playgroups multi-tiered decks, but also consistently obliterate anyone who plays the precon against it.
The irony is that I am hardly as experienced of an EDH player as some of my other buddies. My rubbish budget deck has so much room for improvement, and possibly cheaper than what I invested into it. There are so many good yet very affordable cards that could be put into these precon's. Devastation Tide, Evacuation, and Wash Out seem like pretty obvious inclusions for less than a $ rare. But instead Distorting Wake gets a rare spot.
This is sort of hard to really explain in a very short statement. But this is what I want out of the 2015 decks - an actually thematic deck with not specifically terrible card choices. A budget reprint can be just as effective as a non-budget reprint, but including low-powered cards on purpose is not how to make a player better at the game. Developing "commander exclusive" cards that are rarely used in your average commander deck is not going to entice many to purchase a product.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
I agree Wholeheartedly.
Well, to be fair, Wash out did get a commander 2013 reprint.
And as much as I would like cool heavily thematic decks that only had cards I personally loved and wanted, I recognize that as a terrible business model. If wizards makes decks that can do a few different types of things, they will attract more people to buy the deck. Thus making more money. Additionally, I like that a beginner can get a new prebuilt, play it, then decide they like a certain aspect of it and spend a little money to make the deck do that more. I feel like it makes these decks better learning tools. It also affords them the chance to reprint more cards of varying effect types. Based on that, I think this model of product creation really serves them well. It attracts more players thus making them more money, it helps teach newer players better thus getting more people into the game, and it lets them reprint stuff to benefit a larger number of older/more experienced players thus giving service to their loyal customers. That sounds like not only a great plan to me, but a fantastic business model.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
What you've described is a fantastic model. But as one of those older players I'm still waiting for these important reprints.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Just off the top of my head I recall Karmic Guide getting a reprint which was great because they were really hard to find in my area. And you already mentioned Wurmcoil Engine which was nice to get a touch more availability since all the modern tron players snapped them all up. There have been various nice P3K reprints. Some things like Adarkar Valkyrie weren't insanely expensive before and you could find them, but these reprints made them so much easier to get. I'm struggling a bit to think of individual cards that were really hard to find before that got easier after reprints, but there have been a ton that just went from moderately difficult to find to easy and cheap to grab anywhere. Obviously this does benefit the players who are experienced but still have limited collection or (in my case) don't have an LGS within a 2 hour drive. But, I know quite a few very experienced players that refuse to buy online and were happy to see easy access to strange difficult to find cards.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
What would most likely happen is that all the 60 card players would quickly scoop up the decks, especially the R/U ones, driving the prices up. If they did it to an extent where WotC did at least three print runs to ensure that we got them also, it would make the prices of anything else in the set that wasn't a chase card plummet. Eventually we would be able to get the rest of the cards on the secondary market for cheap. But that's not what Wizards wants. They want us to be able to buy the precon and play it how it was meant to be played.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
The problem, and the reason why your deck trounces most precons, is that you built around one commander, where as Precons have to balance three. What works for Animar, Soul of Elements doesn't work for Riku of Two Reflections, and what works for them doesn't work for Intet, the Dreamer.
Where as you have a very focused package, they simply can't do that with Precons.
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How right you are. I still have the Baseline Kaalia which is commons/uncommons plus the commander only listed in my Primer. It too would thoroughly trounce any precon deck for those same reasons.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
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c13 naya precon has marath, will of the wild, Mayael the Anima and Gahiji, Honored One.
There are 11 power 5 or higher creatures for maya to target (out of 22), 7 cards that produce tokens for gahiji and a grant total of 2 cards that mention +1/+1 counters (opal palace and curse of predation).
I just don't see any balance in this deck.
Exactly. The precons are built so that you have a few different options of generals you can try out and hopefully fall in love with one of them. Then there is room built in for you to remove the cards which don't have synergy and add cards that do.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Combos with Tainted Remedy... but yeah, I totally get where you are coming from. C11 had some solid reprints with things like Attrition, Aura Shards, Insurrection, Invigorate (which also combos with Tainted Remedy...), Mother of Runes, Oblation, Oblivion Stone, Orim's Thunder, Propaganda, Reins of Power, Ruination, Sol Ring, Unnerve, Windfall, and Yavimaya Elder, all of which were printed in much older sets, hadn't been reprinted and were in short supply, and that saw play in EDH.
Looking at C14 though, we did get some good reprints from older sets (which I'm loosely defining as Onslaught Block and earlier); Collective Unconscious (which was unfortunately rendered somewhat obsolete when they printed Shamanic Revelation), Decree of Justice, Desert Twister, Distorting Wake, Dregs of Sorrow, Goblin Welder, Junk Diver, Predator, Flagship, Priest of Titania, Skeletal Scrying, Stroke of Genius, Thran dynamo, Victimize, Karoo-lands, the Diamonds, and the Medallions. They weren't all Armistice, Sylvan Safekeeper, and Whirlwind...
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Sylvan Safekeeper is a fantastic card and was my favorite re-print in the set. Also because it's pretty.
GRWort, Control
UBDralnu, Reanimator
It's not a very good card for EDH in my opinion especially if your meta is filed with Wraths, although I will admit that the synergy with Titania, Protector of Argoth is quite saucy. Throw in a Flagstones of Trokair or Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai and you can even get some added value out of the deal. I just don't think its good enough outside of the green pre-con deck it comes in.
And I agree that the new art is better than the original Olle Radde riding a Spider art from Judgment.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
So excellent when your opponents are chock full of spot removal. Especially nice with Crucible of Worlds
It's actually quite good in Saffi, Roon, Karametra, and my Mimeoplasm. I think it's underrated. In fact, it ends games for me often.
GRWort, Control
UBDralnu, Reanimator