[Official]
The Dream Multiplayer Ban List and the State of the Format (2015 ed)
Poll: Infect should be...
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Infect should be... - Single Choice
- 10 points 54.9%
- 15 points 22.8%
- 20 points 20.3%
- banned 2%
Ended Dec 31, 2015
Poll: Should the Banned as a Commander list be reinstated?
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Should the Banned as a Commander list be reinstated? - Single Choice
- Yes 69%
- No 31%
Ended Dec 31, 2015
Poll: What do you think about the tuck rule change?
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What do you think about the tuck rule change? - Single Choice
- I like it, keep the rule. 42.1%
- I dislike it, bring back tuck. 34.6%
- I don't care one way or the other. 23.3%
Ended Dec 31, 2015
Poll: Do you think the "wish board" (sideboard) should be reinstated?
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Do you think the "wish board" (sideboard) should be reinstated? - Single Choice
- Yes 23.3%
- No 45.6%
- Yes, but as an optional rule only 31.1%
Ended Dec 31, 2015
Poll: What cards should be on the multiplayer ban list?
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What cards should be on the multiplayer ban list? - Multiple Choice
- == BANNED IN VINTAGE == (Don't vote for this) 2% of Users - 6 votes
- Chaos Orb 70.1% of Users - 211 votes
- Falling Star 68.1% of Users - 205 votes
- Shahrazad 74.1% of Users - 223 votes
- == OTHERWISE BANNED IN COMMANDER == (Don't vote for this) 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Ancestral Recall 77.4% of Users - 233 votes
- Balance 67.4% of Users - 203 votes
- Biorhythm 73.4% of Users - 221 votes
- Black Lotus 81.4% of Users - 245 votes
- Braids, Cabal Minion 27.6% of Users - 83 votes
- Coalition Victory 60.5% of Users - 182 votes
- Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 62.5% of Users - 188 votes
- Erayo, Soratami Ascendant 56.5% of Users - 170 votes
- Fastbond 71.4% of Users - 215 votes
- Gifts Ungiven 41.9% of Users - 126 votes
- Griselbrand 62.5% of Users - 188 votes
- Karakas 74.1% of Users - 223 votes
- Library of Alexandria 55.8% of Users - 168 votes
- Limited Resources 72.4% of Users - 218 votes
- Mox Pearl, Sapphire, Jet, Ruby, and Emerald 80.4% of Users - 242 votes
- Painter's Servant 32.9% of Users - 99 votes
- Panoptic Mirror 56.5% of Users - 170 votes
- Primeval Titan 53.5% of Users - 161 votes
- Protean Hulk 57.5% of Users - 173 votes
- Recurring Nightmare 46.2% of Users - 139 votes
- Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary 44.2% of Users - 133 votes
- Sundering Titan 55.5% of Users - 167 votes
- Sway of the Stars 66.4% of Users - 200 votes
- Sylvan Primodial 53.8% of Users - 162 votes
- Time Vault 82.1% of Users - 247 votes
- Time Walk 81.4% of Users - 245 votes
- Tinker 69.4% of Users - 209 votes
- Tolarian Academy 64.8% of Users - 195 votes
- Trade Secrets 62.5% of Users - 188 votes
- Upheaval 62.5% of Users - 188 votes
- Worldfire 62.5% of Users - 188 votes
- Yawgmoth's Bargain 67.1% of Users - 202 votes
- == CARDS NOT CURRENTLY ON THE BAN LIST == (Don't vote for this) 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Ad Nauseam 18.6% of Users - 56 votes
- Bazaar of Baghdad 14.6% of Users - 44 votes
- Blightsteel Colossus 6.6% of Users - 20 votes
- Bribery 6.3% of Users - 19 votes
- Buried Alive 2% of Users - 6 votes
- Consecrated Sphinx 18.6% of Users - 56 votes
- Contamination 9.6% of Users - 29 votes
- Corpse Dance 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Craterhoof Behemoth 5.6% of Users - 17 votes
- Cyclonic Rift 9.6% of Users - 29 votes
- Deadeye Navigator 23.3% of Users - 70 votes
- Demonic Tutor 13.3% of Users - 40 votes
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician 18.9% of Users - 57 votes
- Doomsday 10.6% of Users - 32 votes
- Doubling Season 1.7% of Users - 5 votes
- Enlightened Tutor 6% of Users - 18 votes
- Enter the Infinite 9% of Users - 27 votes
- Food Chain 11% of Users - 33 votes
- Force of Will 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Gaea's Cradle 14.3% of Users - 43 votes
- Gray Merchant of Asphodel 1.7% of Users - 5 votes
- Grim Monolith 10.6% of Users - 32 votes
- Grim Tutor 9% of Users - 27 votes
- Grindstone 6% of Users - 18 votes
- Hermit Druid 29.2% of Users - 88 votes
- Hokori, Dust Drinker 2.3% of Users - 7 votes
- Humility 8% of Users - 24 votes
- Imperial Seal 18.3% of Users - 55 votes
- Insurrection 2% of Users - 6 votes
- Intuition 4% of Users - 12 votes
- Invoke Prejudice 3.7% of Users - 11 votes
- Iona, Shield of Emeria 38.2% of Users - 115 votes
- Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur 6.6% of Users - 20 votes
- Kokusho, the Evening Star 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Maelstrom Wanderer 4% of Users - 12 votes
- Magister Sphinx 6.3% of Users - 19 votes
- Mana Crypt 39.9% of Users - 120 votes
- Mana Drain 15% of Users - 45 votes
- Mana Vault 22.6% of Users - 68 votes
- Mind Over Matter 6.6% of Users - 20 votes
- Mindslaver 7.3% of Users - 22 votes
- Mishra's Workshop 15.9% of Users - 48 votes
- Mystical Tutor 7.3% of Users - 22 votes
- Narset, Enlightened Master 12% of Users - 36 votes
- Necropotence 14.6% of Users - 44 votes
- Nether Void 5% of Users - 15 votes
- Oath of Druids 8% of Users - 24 votes
- Oloro, Ageless Ascetic 6.3% of Users - 19 votes
- Omniscience 12.6% of Users - 38 votes
- Palinchron 14.6% of Users - 44 votes
- Prophet of Kruphix 22.9% of Users - 69 votes
- Purphoros, God of the Forge 3.7% of Users - 11 votes
- Serra Ascendant 13.3% of Users - 40 votes
- Sol Ring 28.2% of Users - 85 votes
- Sorin Markov 7.6% of Users - 23 votes
- Survival of the Fittest 13% of Users - 39 votes
- Sylvan Library 2.7% of Users - 8 votes
- The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 18.3% of Users - 55 votes
- Tendrils of Agony 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Time Stretch 8% of Users - 24 votes
- Tooth and Nail 18.3% of Users - 55 votes
- Triumph of the Hordes 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Vampiric Tutor 12.6% of Users - 38 votes
- Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger 5.3% of Users - 16 votes
- Winter Orb 7.3% of Users - 22 votes
- Yawgmoth's Will 7.6% of Users - 23 votes
- Zur the Enchanter 7.6% of Users - 23 votes
- == CATEGORIES OF CARDS == (Don't vote for this) 1% of Users - 3 votes
- Annihilator cards (i.e. the Eldrazi) 4.3% of Users - 13 votes
- Extra turns (e.g. Time Warp) 10% of Users - 30 votes
- Mass Land Destruction cards (e.g. Armageddon, Sunder) 10.3% of Users - 31 votes
- Planeswalker Commanders (e.g. Nahiri, the Lithomancer) 3.3% of Users - 10 votes
- "You win the game" effects (e.g. Test of Endurance) 9.3% of Users - 28 votes
Ended Dec 31, 2015
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Last time I did this poll, it was simply a list of everything on the ban list, the most common offenders that come up in the official multiplayer ban list discussion thread, as well as cards that were requested by users. This time around it will be similar, but with two changes. First, I have added polls for infect, the BaaC, tuck changes, and wish boards. Second, I have taken liberties with the cards which will be on the ban list poll based on the previous poll and certain cards which were requested this time around. If a card received less than a 5% vote on the last poll, it will not be included in this poll. Also, certain cards fit into a particular strategy, and rather than list every card in that strategy (many of which are not banworthy on an individual level), I lumped them into a single category.
Hopefully this will not be too confusing, so here's the TL;DR: Answer each question in each poll (if you care). In the ban list poll, imagine that there is no existing ban list and it's up to you to create one. Choose what cards out of the provided list you would put on the ban list. The actual ban list poll is broken down into multiple categories: cards banned by nature of being banned in Vintage (excluding Ante cards), cards the RC banned, other individual cards, and finally, lumped strategies. Each category will have a header for clear division purposes.
Poll #1 - Ban List Poll
Poll #2 - Infect
Poll #3 - Banned as a Commander
Poll #4 - Tuck Rule
Poll #5 - Wish Board
Update: Iona and Demonic Tutor were added to the poll, as they were not intentionally left off.
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Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Anyway, thanks for organizing this. More public polling of EDH players == more data to figure out what changes will be best for more people.
It's fun to refresh these periodically and watch things change.
Im even more surprised that currently no one has voted to ban Prophet of Kruphix.
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
I don't know what's up with those. I tried deleting the second set but it didn't take.
I was made aware that Iona was left off. She has been added.
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Voted for all the broken mana (forgot Mana Vault but it's the least problematic of the lot), the broken consistency engines (including most of the tutors and Ancestral) and the worst combo enablers (Food Chain, Hermit Druid, Ad Nauseum, Gifts Ungiven), as well as the cards that scale terribly in multiplayer (Limited Resources, Erayo, Balance, etc).
I have no issue with haymaker plays like Iona or Worldfire (at the top end) or Prophet of Kruphix or Armageddon (at the lower end). They can and should be countered and/or killed on sight, and you don't need two players playing a 'counterspell overload' strategy to be able to counter the odd haymaker.
As for cards not listed:
Prossh should be an option (banned as commander would suffice). He's degenerate with Food Chain and a considerable number of other similar enablers. Removing Food Chain might be enough but there are replacements, and when you can count on an infinite number of copies of him in your hand he just does too many obnoxious things.
Demonic Tutor absolutely should be an option. I voted for several cards that do the same thing but are considerably weaker (Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Enlightened Tutor). If someone wants to do fair things with DT, they can achieve their goal using Diabolic Tutor and/or Demonic Collusion, both of which give the table more warning.
Finally, Personal Tutor. Too much consistency for people that want to do something broken.
Happy to see agreement on Painter's Servant.
Sundering Titan is one dude I'm surprised is getting a healthy amount of votes. I remember the Spike Squad complaining that his ban was going too far in terms of the board policing our fun.
Five people so far who are annoyed at Narset (same voted for DEN and only one less than Palinchron?!)
Outside the already-banned list I'm mostly in agreement with the really truly silly tutors and mana rocks.
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
I'd love to see all the wishes actually work in a way that their text box indicates they do in commander.
I applaud the RC for removing format level errata that it was using to keep some cards far to strong for the format legal, but I can't fathom why they chose to keep a special rule that reads "these 9 cards don't work as they read".
It also goes against the 'simplicity is important' rhetoric that has been coming from the RC lately. This past year we've seen a rule changed that effected only 4 cards (Banned as a Commander) and a rule changed that effected only about 14 cards (Tuck), both of these changes were meant to simplify the rules; makes the banned list cleaner-and unifying all possible zone change rules to apply the command zone replacement effect to all of them. Having a special rule that only effects 9 cards is not adding to simplicity, it is adding to complexity.
I've come up with a plan for how I think wishes should work that I have talked about in the banned list thread. It basically boils down to "You may use a sideboard. The maximum sideboard size is n cards." The RC has powerful controls to sculpt how wishes are played, since they can set the number of cards in the sideboard high or low. Wishes become build your own split card/charm/command when played with 2/3/4 card boards.
I notice the poll is very divisive on the wish issue. Would anyone voting 'No' like to discuss why they voted that way?
There are other cards that annoy me, but not in a no one should ever play them annoy me way. ameragedon, Tooth'n Nail, Enter the Infite Ominscience.
With the exception of hermit durid creature cards for the most part are not powerful enough to raise my ire, so easy to kill, unless they provide overwhelming advantage upon resolving, without aditional mana, or preventing me casting spells once it resolves.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
While a very strong option for a commander, and one that benefits from being able to be recast from the Command Zone, Braids is actually quite easy for a group with experience playing against her to deal with the majority of the time. I would put her roughly comparable to other high-tier commanders such as Arcum Dagsson or Zur the Enchanter. While I admit it is more difficult to use her in a benign way than those, she also will never 'accidentally' ruin a game. It is very clear what she does, and she is honestly not overpowered, even as a commander.
Painter's Servant
The card is banned because people are irrationally afraid of it. Yes, it is a combo enabler - that is what it is designed for. But most of the combos commonly sited for keeping it banned are honestly just bad. There are a few strong interactions, as well as several very interesting or unique interactions, but none of those are really any stronger than other, existing two-card combos, and is often easier to disrupt.
Primeval Titan
I understand the reasons why the card was banned, but personally disagree with them. While it is undeniably strong, it never centralized the game and was rarely cloned or copied in my experience. From what I have seen, the card only really becomes a problem as the groups skill goes down, similar to the current debate over Prophet of Kruphix. Keep in mind that having a lower skill level group is not the same as having a less competitive group.
Recurring Nightmare
I have tested with this card quite a bit now, and it is nowhere even close to as oppressive or centralizing as claimed as the reasons for it being banned. In my builds, the card was cut from my deck for not being good enough - it is mana intensive and easily disrupted, and every time I actually benefited from the card, I wished it was a Reanimate instead. Another friend built a Sidisi, Undead Vizier for the singular purpose of generating large amounts of black mana to loop Gray Merchant of Asphodel & Kokusho, the Evening Star as the primary win condition. In every game I have seen him play, he never tutored for the card, and only once even bothered to cast it. There were simply better and more efficient plays available, every time.
Trade Secrets
I have not ever seen this card used for the reasons given for its banning, nor has anyone I have spoken to about it. The reasons given are largely a result of 'problem players', in addition to simply making bad game decisions when the card is used in this manner.
Worldfire
I do not like the card, or the effects it has on a game, but the card does have legitimate uses and appeal. It is only banned as an attempt to police problematic players - the kind of player who will cast Armageddon for the express purpose of pissing off the rest of the group. This is not something the banned list should be used for.
Gifts Ungiven, Protean Hulk, Sway of the Stars
These are cards that, for various reasons I think *might* be fine to come off the banned list, but have not had any opportunity to test with myself. For now, I have marked them as remaining banned.
Mana Crypt & Sol Ring
These two cards are exceptional enablers, and have a very strong tendency to warp entire games around them, albeit covertly, when cast early. The vast majority of early, highly disruptive plays I have seen can be traced back to one of these two. While the 'second best' Artifact mana sources are excellent cards and prone to abuse as combo pieces, they have limiters that reign them in well.
These two should be banned for power level, and the format would be vastly improved without them.
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Iona is a card that I commonly use as an example of a card that should never have been printed. Although not overpowered, she consistently creates a miserable play experience for nearly everyone involved, and has significant, negative warping effect on any metagame she is expected in. Every format would be improved with the removal of Iona.
Tooth and Nail
Easy to cast, difficult to disrupt, and consistently ends the game (effectively) on resolution, often entirely ignoring everything that has happened in the game up until that point. Even when used 'fairly', it is easily one of the strongest cards in the format. The card is to strong for this format.
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician & Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
- This also includes Command Tower, Commander's Sphere, Angelic Field Marshal, Demon of Wailing Agonies, Stormsurge Kraken, Thunderfoot Baloth, & Tyrant's Familiar - cards I had thought had been listed under the prelemanary / suggestion list for inclusion, and that I would have listed myself if I had realized they had not been.
None of these cards cause any real game-play issues. My desire to ban them comes from a personal, extreme dislike of the concept of the design - specifically that they are otherwise legal M:tG cards that have mechanics exclusive to a single, specific format. This extends to all cards with an effect during a Draft as well, though those are far less relevant to this discussion.
This notably does not include the Planeswalker commanders, for the singular reason that I feel the Planeswalker card type should be a legal choice for a Commander as a format rule, in the same way Legendary Creatures are.
If it had been stated that this would include more than simply a banned list poll, I would have suggested it also include allowing all Planeswalkers as legal commander choices, and would like to request this be added now.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
Personal Tutor and Prossh were intentionally left off because of how poorly they did in the poll last time. Remember, if a card was polled last time and did not do well, it was left off this time.
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Wait, it does that?
Edit: You've got to be kidding me... Ok, I tested it and it does in fact mess up the votes if you move stuff within an active poll. I closed the poll and will redo it tonight starting fresh. That way there is no confusion.
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Personally I love the idea of having one and building one myself but I still voted no on allowing one because I think it adds a complexity to the game that many other commander players will not partake in and or not utilize well so I feel to some point that its sort of an elitism sort of thing. I would love having one and building it but I feel that there would be many players who I put off by utilizing such a thing even if it was allowed.
My own reasons are more oriented towards the more casual gamer who I fear it would alienate.
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[Modern] Allies
Also, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary is on there twice, the second copy will be Sway of the Stars as soon as I can flag down someone who can actually change it. I sadly cannot manipulate a poll.EDIT: we got the Rofellos issue dealt with. There was a very minor movement in cards since Sway of the Stars comes after Sundering Titan but there had only been 2 other voters at the time other than myself when we got it fixed so I am going to say its minor enough I am not re-creating the poll. If you are one of those two other voters please take note that there might have been a minor change between Sundering Titan and what is now Sway of the Stars and adjust your vote as needed.
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[Modern] Allies
For context, I voted to ban basically every tutor on this list, so that might give you some insight into my position here.
I don't think people should be playing wishes at all. I think regular tutors that let you find the right answer to the situation at will already undermine the desired variance of the format enough, but wishes annihilate the deckbuilding process entirely. Because of the nature of random draws from 99 card singleton, EDH puts a heavy opportunity cost on playing cards that are situationally useless. People aren't likely to play Flashfires because it's a dead card if you aren't playing against mono-white, but if you can play Burning Wish instead, you get to include the opportunity to play blowout cards like that without any downside.
Great argument, and I've changed my vote to a No for wishboards. I don't think all tutors are bad, but the point you made makes me feel like wish cards are even stronger than a basic tutor for the reasons you stated. It won't even affect your deck building, and makes not playing wish cards a poor decision.
I am also concerned at how focused wishboards would likely be on color hosing strategies. That is another great point as to why not to run them.
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[Modern] Allies
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