So Eldrazi have been reprinted in MM2015 and the next block goes back to Zendikar. Seems like the time to address the small issue of having no basic land option for colorless commander decks. Now I realize these decks aren't really hurting for options, there are quite a few lands and produce colorless mana; however, since we can only add 1 of each non-basic land in an EDH deck, we are left having to use cards that really don't do anything for us anyways. Yes I can put naya panorama or unknown shores in the deck, but it doesn't do anything more than "cave" would in a colorless deck. In fact, they are much worse since they can't be retrieved by cards like wayfarer's bauble or evolving wilds but "cave" could.
Because there are so few options for finding land in this type of deck ( expedition map is the only one that comes to mind right off hand), it just seems like there really should be a solution.
I understand that one of the biggest drawbacks to "cave" is that cards like coalition victory now would require a 6th type of land on the board, but I don't see how this is really that big of an issue. First off it's banned in EDH. I don't play older formats like Legacy/Vintage, but is this currently used in winning decks as it is? Even if that is the case, it's not like you need each of the 5 basic lands to win now...just the land types. So if you have a tundra, taiga and a swamp you could still get the win. It seems the easiest solution then would be if you create "cave" you also create dual lands as well; 5 non-basic lands that have each of the current basic land types plus cave. For example: you would still only need 3 specific cards for coalition victory...tundra, taiga, and "swamp cave"...well...plus 5 other mana to actually pay for the spell.
The non-basic lands wouldn't be anything all that special...maybe just something like:
Forest Cave
Land - Forest Cave
tap: add 1 to your mana pool
Forestcycle 2
Other cards that use the keyword "domain" would get slightly better, but not in any crazy fashion. The only other possible issue is with cards like illusionary terrain which could turn all of one type of land to "cave" which could really hurt someone, but in commander it doesn't change a whole lot anyways. If you are playing a red deck and someone plays this and names mountain and island, then all your mountains produce colorless mana anyways.
At any rate, I just wanted to throw all this out there, not trying to make this into a "let's create a barry's land" thread, but just wanted to voice the need for something like this in commander and see what other's thoughts on this are.
I don't think a basic land for colorless needs to have a type. It can just have the ability "T: Add 1 to your mana pool." It would be searchable with Wayfarer's Bauble or Solemn Simulacrum, it wouldn't be destroyed by Ruination, it wouldn't affect domain cards at all.
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You know the more I think of this the more I see they could really work something into the next block that would work with the concept of a basic land that only produces colorless mana.
Basic lands, as they are, can be used in two ways - to pay the cost of a specific color or for a colorless mana. When last on Zendikar, we saw this plane that had almost a living landscape, constantly changing and people exploring the areas of the plane. Then the Eldrazi come along and start destroying everything.
So you could almost create basic lands that strip them of the ability to produced colored mana but leave the ability to produce colorless mana. The eldrazi destroy the forests so now you have some sort of "basic land - destroyed forest" and it can only produce colorless mana. which would suit the needs of the eldrazi just fine anyways.
Now I'm sliding back into "creating barry's land" territory. Good point about ruination. That's just plain not fair against a colorless deck. Also just thought myriad landscape would be pretty sweet if there were colorless basics. Use it for 1 until you can afford to sac it for 2 lands.
It was recently said that they had figured out the colorless basic. I believe it was Dave Humphries at the last PAX. I think we can expect it sooner rather than later.
I've played colorless since 2012 or so and i don't know if i even want barrys land. I really like having a bunch of utility lands. Sometimes i've lost just because i didn't take notice on which lands i had in play.
But i guess i would atleast add a couple of them since From the Ashes and Wave of Vitriol will be a little easier to take.
It was recently said that they had figured out the colorless basic. I believe it was Dave Humphries at the last PAX. I think we can expect it sooner rather than later.
Aaron Forsythe, at the Australia PAX, said they could print a colorless basic land. Not that they had solved the issues surrounding Barry's Land.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something but isn't Barry's land a colorless land intended to increase Domain to 6? Isn't that basically a basic colorless land?
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something but isn't Barry's land a colorless land intended to increase Domain to 6? Isn't that basically a basic colorless land?
Barry's Land was indeed a basic land that produced colorless mana. However the rules team at the time it was proposed felt it was not possible.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
Now I realize these decks aren't really hurting for options, there are quite a few lands and produce colorless mana; however, since we can only add 1 of each non-basic land in an EDH deck, we are left having to use cards that really don't do anything for us anyways.
Barry's Land was about stretching domain to 6. I think there are few players interested in this. For the purposes of not running "bad" lands like panoramas in colorless decks... basic lands have no other abilities anyway. I would prefer they keep on printing things like Tomb of the Spirit Dragon which can be added to the deck and do something.
If it is a matter of not being able to crack evolving wilds or Wayfarer's Bauble to get a basic... I really don't think this is worth making major changes to the game.
The only thing is that colorless decks are really hurt by non-basic land hate. But they can also run every Wasteland-type card in existence, no matter how terrible. I think it balances out. There is an advantage when your mana base can support as many colorless lands as possible.
I'm all for adding to the lands currently available, and even making more Expedition Map type cards. I do not support massively changing the game for next to no benefit.
The greatest advantage of a colorless EDH deck is the number of utility lands it can play (and there are more than enough good ones that you don't need to play bad ones), so I don't think I would play a colorless basic land in any case. You'll always be hit hard by Ruination types of effect, adding a couple wouldn't change much. I could imagine adding one or two for Path to Exile and similar effects, but that's all the impact it would have I think for colorless EDH decks.
Obviously if it counted towards domain it could help a number of cards see more play in EDH.
I kinda like that land idea. Maybe something like this:
Unstable Landscape
Basic Land
T: Add 1
Domain Cycle - 2 Discard this card from you hand: Search your library for a land that shares a type with a land you control and put it into your hand. Then, shuffle your library.
Actually, even if that wasn't a basic land, I'd still run that lol
I kinda like that land idea. Maybe something like this:
Unstable Landscape
Basic Land
T: Add 1
Domain Cycle - 2 Discard this card from you hand: Search your library for a land that shares a type with a land you control and put it into your hand. Then, shuffle your library.
Actually, even if that wasn't a basic land, I'd still run that lol
You might want to change that to "subtype" or "basic land type", since as written it tutors up any land
the thing is, in the original article, barry's land was designed to increase the domain count to 6, and not to make a colourless basic land, right? what the mono-brown players in edh want is just the colourless basic land; they could care less about domain, coalition victory et al.
if they figured it out, it COULD mean that they realised that the domain-upping isn't very feasible, but their current goal is to create a colourless basic; to give the eldrazi some 'homeland-type'. in other words, they might make a card with just the supertype and type, since the blind eternities isn't a comprehendible 'place' (i think, right?):
Aether
basic land t: add 1 to your mana pool
(or whatever they'd wanna call the stuff in the blind eternities)
i'm quite excited for this actually. its gonna be one of the biggest changes in magic since the introduction of planeswalkers.
A colorless basic land is, and has always been, very easy to do. The problem with 'Barrys Land' is that it ****s with Domain mechanics; adding another basic land subtype has a lot of issues, would make some domain cards better, some worse, etc. Having a land that 'counts as' a basic land type would make some domain abilities better, either convoluted or useless for others, and a rules nightmare.
The best solution, as has been repeatedly stated many times, both in this thread and many others, is simply
CARDNAME
Basic Land T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
The problem with this design is that, outside of colorless Commander decks, the card is strictly worse than any existing basic land. This problem can be resolved with the following:
CARDNAME 4
Creature - Ooze Moonburst - CARDNAME enters the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters on it equal to the amount of colorless mana spent to cast it. 0/0
A colorless basic land is, and has always been, very easy to do. The problem with 'Barrys Land' is that it ****s with Domain mechanics; adding another basic land subtype has a lot of issues, would make some domain cards better, some worse, etc. Having a land that 'counts as' a basic land type would make some domain abilities better, either convoluted or useless for others, and a rules nightmare.
The best solution, as has been repeatedly stated many times, both in this thread and many others, is simply
CARDNAME
Basic Land T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
The problem with this design is that, outside of colorless Commander decks, the card is strictly worse than any existing basic land. This problem can be resolved with the following:
CARDNAME 4
Creature - Ooze Moonburst - CARDNAME enters the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters on it equal to the amount of colorless mana spent to cast it. 0/0
that doesn't make the basic land any less 'strictly worse' than any other basics; just less worse in context. i think its completely within reason though that wotc would make it if it makes sense in context; they've been known to do so.
The only reason I would want a Barry's land is for those who play colorless decks. (Or want to but just cannot afford the land base) I may have a large land base at my disposal but i cannot afford to go drop 1000 bucks on 5 lands, to sort of round off a land base for one deck, that might not even work well to begin with because i cannot search up lands. My 5c deck is doing fine without the ability to search for lands, but that is because I have enough color fixing in it with it being tribal slivers and having both Gemhide and Manaweft Sliver, along with chromatic lantern.
Those are all in my Karn deck, and they all do work for the deck.
There are ways one could make an edh deck of any color that would play only non-basic lands. this list consists of 34 lands and typically i play 36-40 so I'm still left with fillers like panoramas just to get the mana base up. Plus I don't have mishra's workshop just lying around and maze of ith despite it being a good card, does not tap for mana. The point is, yes i understand there are ways to get around the fact that there is no colorless basic land, but it just seems there really should be one. Especially considering the reprint of eldrazi titans has made it easier to get a colorless commander and the return to zendikar is right around the corner which will more than likely include new colorless spells - edh in general has become very popular over the last few years so it just seems there should be a basic land option for these decks.
Doesn't the basic land type allow lands to tap for colored mana? This is why cards like Sacred Foundry and Murmuring Bosk have mana abilities that are written in reminder text, rather than rules text, right? If so, then Forest Cave doesn't function well as a design because it would tap for green mana.
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There are ways one could make an edh deck of any color that would play only non-basic lands. this list consists of 34 lands and typically i play 36-40 so I'm still left with fillers like panoramas just to get the mana base up. Plus I don't have mishra's workshop just lying around and maze of ith despite it being a good card, does not tap for mana. The point is, yes i understand there are ways to get around the fact that there is no colorless basic land, but it just seems there really should be one. Especially considering the reprint of eldrazi titans has made it easier to get a colorless commander and the return to zendikar is right around the corner which will more than likely include new colorless spells - edh in general has become very popular over the last few years so it just seems there should be a basic land option for these decks.
So you want 8 more options for relevant colorless lands which tap for mana?
Have 22 more (some are dependent on deck strategy of course, but I gave you almost three times the number you implied a request for, so that shouldn't be a problem).
There are ways one could make an edh deck of any color that would play only non-basic lands. this list consists of 34 lands and typically i play 36-40 so I'm still left with fillers like panoramas just to get the mana base up. Plus I don't have mishra's workshop just lying around and maze of ith despite it being a good card, does not tap for mana. The point is, yes i understand there are ways to get around the fact that there is no colorless basic land, but it just seems there really should be one. Especially considering the reprint of eldrazi titans has made it easier to get a colorless commander and the return to zendikar is right around the corner which will more than likely include new colorless spells - edh in general has become very popular over the last few years so it just seems there should be a basic land option for these decks.
So you want 8 more options for relevant colorless lands which tap for mana?
Have 22 more (some are dependent on deck strategy of course, but I gave you almost three times the number you implied a request for, so that shouldn't be a problem).
You missed my point completely. Like I said, ANY deck could be built using ONLY non-basic lands. I'm saying there should be an option so we don't have to.
Doesn't the basic land type allow lands to tap for colored mana? This is why cards like Sacred Foundry and Murmuring Bosk have mana abilities that are written in reminder text, rather than rules text, right? If so, then Forest Cave doesn't function well as a design because it would tap for green mana.
It would tap for either, which actually seems pretty elegant to me.
You missed my point completely. Like I said, ANY deck could be built using ONLY non-basic lands. I'm saying there should be an option so we don't have to.
To re-quote you for emphasis:
we are left having to use cards that really don't do anything for us anyways.
I have presented the manabase of a functional Karn deck with no lands that don't do anything for me, and upon request, produced another 22 viable options to pick from to meet the difference between the number I currently use, and the number you prefer to use.
Your claim that colorless decks have to use lands that are basically worthless such as the Panoramas is patently untrue.
I run a colorless deck and I honestly don't want, need or see the use of a basic land that taps for colorless mana. There are more than enough non basics that do cool things that it makes it worth playing them over a land that just taps for mana. As far as non basic land hate, I hardly ever see it and there is a ton of artifact ramp that can supplement the loss of all your lands. Playing a colorless deck can be risky but it can have its rewards as well.
Also if they print these lands when they return to zendikar, they probably won't be in large enough supply to help out anyone who wants to build a colorless EDH deck but can't get the lands. You get one basic land per pack so you have a 1/6 chance of getting one. Seeing as how they would probably only be printed for just one set for flavor reasons, this would make these cards a little hard to find and that would drive the price up.
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So Eldrazi have been reprinted in MM2015 and the next block goes back to Zendikar. Seems like the time to address the small issue of having no basic land option for colorless commander decks. Now I realize these decks aren't really hurting for options, there are quite a few lands and produce colorless mana; however, since we can only add 1 of each non-basic land in an EDH deck, we are left having to use cards that really don't do anything for us anyways. Yes I can put naya panorama or unknown shores in the deck, but it doesn't do anything more than "cave" would in a colorless deck. In fact, they are much worse since they can't be retrieved by cards like wayfarer's bauble or evolving wilds but "cave" could.
Because there are so few options for finding land in this type of deck ( expedition map is the only one that comes to mind right off hand), it just seems like there really should be a solution.
I understand that one of the biggest drawbacks to "cave" is that cards like coalition victory now would require a 6th type of land on the board, but I don't see how this is really that big of an issue. First off it's banned in EDH. I don't play older formats like Legacy/Vintage, but is this currently used in winning decks as it is? Even if that is the case, it's not like you need each of the 5 basic lands to win now...just the land types. So if you have a tundra, taiga and a swamp you could still get the win. It seems the easiest solution then would be if you create "cave" you also create dual lands as well; 5 non-basic lands that have each of the current basic land types plus cave. For example: you would still only need 3 specific cards for coalition victory...tundra, taiga, and "swamp cave"...well...plus 5 other mana to actually pay for the spell.
The non-basic lands wouldn't be anything all that special...maybe just something like:
Forest Cave
Land - Forest Cave
tap: add 1 to your mana pool
Forestcycle 2
Other cards that use the keyword "domain" would get slightly better, but not in any crazy fashion. The only other possible issue is with cards like illusionary terrain which could turn all of one type of land to "cave" which could really hurt someone, but in commander it doesn't change a whole lot anyways. If you are playing a red deck and someone plays this and names mountain and island, then all your mountains produce colorless mana anyways.
At any rate, I just wanted to throw all this out there, not trying to make this into a "let's create a barry's land" thread, but just wanted to voice the need for something like this in commander and see what other's thoughts on this are.
Basic lands, as they are, can be used in two ways - to pay the cost of a specific color or for a colorless mana. When last on Zendikar, we saw this plane that had almost a living landscape, constantly changing and people exploring the areas of the plane. Then the Eldrazi come along and start destroying everything.
So you could almost create basic lands that strip them of the ability to produced colored mana but leave the ability to produce colorless mana. The eldrazi destroy the forests so now you have some sort of "basic land - destroyed forest" and it can only produce colorless mana. which would suit the needs of the eldrazi just fine anyways.
Now I'm sliding back into "creating barry's land" territory. Good point about ruination. That's just plain not fair against a colorless deck. Also just thought myriad landscape would be pretty sweet if there were colorless basics. Use it for 1 until you can afford to sac it for 2 lands.
But i guess i would atleast add a couple of them since From the Ashes and Wave of Vitriol will be a little easier to take.
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My most played EDH deck:
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UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Aaron Forsythe, at the Australia PAX, said they could print a colorless basic land. Not that they had solved the issues surrounding Barry's Land.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something but isn't Barry's land a colorless land intended to increase Domain to 6? Isn't that basically a basic colorless land?
Barry's Land was indeed a basic land that produced colorless mana. However the rules team at the time it was proposed felt it was not possible.
The story if you're interested
- Ancient Tomb
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Those are all in my Karn deck, and they all do work for the deck.Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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If it is a matter of not being able to crack evolving wilds or Wayfarer's Bauble to get a basic... I really don't think this is worth making major changes to the game.
The only thing is that colorless decks are really hurt by non-basic land hate. But they can also run every Wasteland-type card in existence, no matter how terrible. I think it balances out. There is an advantage when your mana base can support as many colorless lands as possible.
I'm all for adding to the lands currently available, and even making more Expedition Map type cards. I do not support massively changing the game for next to no benefit.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
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Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Obviously if it counted towards domain it could help a number of cards see more play in EDH.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
Unstable Landscape
Basic Land
T: Add 1
Domain Cycle - 2 Discard this card from you hand: Search your library for a land that shares a type with a land you control and put it into your hand. Then, shuffle your library.
Actually, even if that wasn't a basic land, I'd still run that lol
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
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if they figured it out, it COULD mean that they realised that the domain-upping isn't very feasible, but their current goal is to create a colourless basic; to give the eldrazi some 'homeland-type'. in other words, they might make a card with just the supertype and type, since the blind eternities isn't a comprehendible 'place' (i think, right?):
Aether
basic land
t: add 1 to your mana pool
(or whatever they'd wanna call the stuff in the blind eternities)
i'm quite excited for this actually. its gonna be one of the biggest changes in magic since the introduction of planeswalkers.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
The best solution, as has been repeatedly stated many times, both in this thread and many others, is simply
CARDNAME
Basic Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
The problem with this design is that, outside of colorless Commander decks, the card is strictly worse than any existing basic land. This problem can be resolved with the following:
CARDNAME 4
Creature - Ooze
Moonburst - CARDNAME enters the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters on it equal to the amount of colorless mana spent to cast it.
0/0
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
that doesn't make the basic land any less 'strictly worse' than any other basics; just less worse in context. i think its completely within reason though that wotc would make it if it makes sense in context; they've been known to do so.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Colorless manabases are FAR more expensive.
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There are ways one could make an edh deck of any color that would play only non-basic lands. this list consists of 34 lands and typically i play 36-40 so I'm still left with fillers like panoramas just to get the mana base up. Plus I don't have mishra's workshop just lying around and maze of ith despite it being a good card, does not tap for mana. The point is, yes i understand there are ways to get around the fact that there is no colorless basic land, but it just seems there really should be one. Especially considering the reprint of eldrazi titans has made it easier to get a colorless commander and the return to zendikar is right around the corner which will more than likely include new colorless spells - edh in general has become very popular over the last few years so it just seems there should be a basic land option for these decks.
Doesn't the basic land type allow lands to tap for colored mana? This is why cards like Sacred Foundry and Murmuring Bosk have mana abilities that are written in reminder text, rather than rules text, right? If so, then Forest Cave doesn't function well as a design because it would tap for green mana.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
- Arcane Lighthouse
- Cathedral of War
- Contested War Zone
- Dread Statuary
- Eldrazi Temple
- Encroaching Wastes
- Gargoyle Castle
- Gemstone Caverns
- Ghost Quarter
- Hall of the Bandit Lord
- High Market
- Opal Palace
- Quicksand
- Radiant Fountain
- Rishadan Port
- Rogue's Passage
- Stalking Stones
- Tomb of the Spirit Dragon
- Tower of the Magistrate
- Urza's Factory
- Wasteland
- Winding Canyons
Have 22 more (some are dependent on deck strategy of course, but I gave you almost three times the number you implied a request for, so that shouldn't be a problem).Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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You missed my point completely. Like I said, ANY deck could be built using ONLY non-basic lands. I'm saying there should be an option so we don't have to.
It would tap for either, which actually seems pretty elegant to me.
I have presented the manabase of a functional Karn deck with no lands that don't do anything for me, and upon request, produced another 22 viable options to pick from to meet the difference between the number I currently use, and the number you prefer to use.
Your claim that colorless decks have to use lands that are basically worthless such as the Panoramas is patently untrue.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Also if they print these lands when they return to zendikar, they probably won't be in large enough supply to help out anyone who wants to build a colorless EDH deck but can't get the lands. You get one basic land per pack so you have a 1/6 chance of getting one. Seeing as how they would probably only be printed for just one set for flavor reasons, this would make these cards a little hard to find and that would drive the price up.