I think the potential new rule could be written: "commanders in the command zone are treated as part of their owner's hand for the purposes of casting them, abilities the card has, and putting the card onto the battlefield."
Doesn't do anything for Haakon, and I'm pretty sure that particular wording doesn't help Phage or the Myojins either.
We could probably figure out a rule to make it work, but it'd be inelegant and pretty scary in the corners. It's not worth it.
Well, yes. I have actually read all 998 pages of that (over the course of years, thank god)
I do not, though there are days when I wonder. Scott works for Wizards. Sheldon's a retired judge/commentator. Gavin is an L3 judge. Alex and Devon have, to my knowledge, no interactions with Wizards outside of the RC.
Scott is Organized Play and worked on a couple of sets, right? Didn't one of you also work with the MTGO coding?
Do you think the addition of Commander as a sanctioned format for Friday Night Magic was a good idea in terms of growing the format? Do you think that this conflicts with the mentality of being a casual format? Do you think Commander is beginner-friendly?
I preface these questions, in that I personally have been playing for a very long time. I am significantly older than most of the players at the local store that I go to (I have been playing longer than some have been alive...), as are most of the players at my local store who identify themselves as Commander format players. The young ones don't seem to gravitate to it, and I can see the disconnect when the older, more experienced players who have larger collections of cards are essentially the competition for the younger players. It's unintentional, but intimidating for them. And we do the best we can to separate them, when and if we can. Most do not show up when we do Commander games or we try to run a 60-card format separately for them, again when we can. Obviously we want new blood, and new players for Commander, but in my experience and my point of view the young players don't take to the format. Thoughts?
Nope, that was all the work of former L3 judge Lee Sharpe. He was a fan of the format and knocked it out on MTGO as a weekend project. He is one of the more unheralded heroes of Commander.
Do you think the addition of Commander as sanctioned format for Friday Night Magic was a good idea in terms of growing the format? Do you think that this conflicts with the mentality of being a casual format? Do you think Commander is beginner-friendly?
I think that there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what Commander being FNM sanctionable meant.
Bird Tribal Tiny Leaders and Backdraft Unhinged with a Planechase stack are sanctioned FNM formats. Literally anything you can think up is FNM sanctionable.
Note that at the same time as they made this change, they removed the requirement that the FNM foils be given to the winners. I think that that can be taken as an indication of how they feel about the competitiveness. Basically, the FNM change was Wizards saying "yeah, we realize there's this group of people off in the corner doing their own thing. Feel free to get them registered and throw some foils at them, too"
As for beginners, Commander is about as far from a beginner format as you can get. It's rules are designed to encourage insane things to happen, and the complexity is off the charts. "Beginner" commander players are the folks that have been playing for a while, have this pile of 'unplayable' random cards that they don't know what to do with, and want something different from/in addition to their regular Standard/Modern/etc play.
It does satisfy cast from hand. I think you just skipped by it or something. Hakkon needs a hakkon exclusive rule though, while the rest work with the one sentence. It's kind of like actually making genju or tatsumasa work right. I'm not even sure what's ideal to do with hakkon though. At least with the others, it's clear what should be done.
I think the potential new rule could be written: "commanders in the command zone are treated as part of their owner's hand for the purposes of casting them, abilities the card has, and putting the card onto the battlefield." I think the battlefield part might be neat. It technically let's every commander get around the tax and it's kind of strange that you can't do it. I doubt it's that big of a deal other than sneak attack and the fact that you can actually use progenitus as a creature without dedicating your whole deck to ramp. So, wouldn't it be a good addition to the rulebook just like color identity or fixing tuck? I'm pretty sure it plays pretty much like commanders were intended to function. Infact it's how I assumed it should logically work before I actually looked up the technical rules years ago.
You could always solve Haakon and the rest by making the wording "Commanders in the command zone are considered to be in every zone except the battlefield for the purpose of abilities printed on them."
Bonus points for making Panglacial Wurm weird as a commander when you use him in Pommander, my commander variant where your commander has to be any creature beginning with the letter P.
That was a pretty obvious joke, I think, but I do kinda wonder if that wording would work.
On topic, if you could only have 1 EDH deck, which commander would you have?
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
It does satisfy cast from hand. I think you just skipped by it or something.
No, I read it. I just don't think it necessarily does what you think it does. Allowing you to cast it as though it was in your hand is not the same as casting it from your hand. You need what I suggested earlier - a rule that says "for purposes of abilities that care if the card was cast from the hand, the command zone also counts." Yuck. Just not space worth exploring.
You could always solve Haakon and the rest by making the wording "Commanders in the command zone are considered to be in every zone except the battlefield for the purpose of abilities printed on them."
Reanimate would like a word with you. T1 Sheoldred sounds pretty strong (or whatever stupid nonsense).
(I failed at reading comprehension, sorry).
The only possible rule fix I can see is that's narrow enough and broad enough:
"If your commander allows being cast from a zone other than your hand, it may begin the game in that zone and return there when it could legally be placed in the command zone." (RIP would still shut down Haakon, poor bastard).
or maybe even:
"You may transfer your commander from the command zone to your hand in the same way as paying a morph cost [not interacting with the stack] by paying its commander tax. This activity counts as casting it from the command zone for purposes of calculating future commander tax."
This second version has the benefit of allowing the use of the variety of cheat-into-play-from-hand effects with commanders, which I don't dislike.
It's possible that the "Casting from the command zone" rule could be straight up replaced with a transfer to your hand for the cost of commander tax, but there may be some gaps in that I'm not seeing.
You could always solve Haakon and the rest by making the wording "Commanders in the command zone are considered to be in every zone except the battlefield for the purpose of abilities printed on them."
Reanimate would like a word with you. T1 Sheoldred sounds pretty strong (or whatever stupid nonsense).
The only possible rule fix I can see is that's narrow enough and broad enough:
"If your commander allows being cast from a zone other than your hand, it may begin the game in that zone."
Would you like to reread the text you quoted? Reanimation effects won't work with that.
Also if this conversation on this topic is going to continue, it should probably split off into a different thread.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
You could always solve Haakon and the rest by making the wording "Commanders in the command zone are considered to be in every zone except the battlefield for the purpose of abilities printed on them."
This is wandering way afield, but the first problem here is that "for the purpose of" Magic rules-ese. That's obviously overcomeable. But, yes, I think something approximating this template, in all it's eye-bleeding glory, actually gets you what you want. Until they go and print something that breaks it in half
Does anyone over in your group (or the RC even) play with Necropotence in their decks? The more that it comes up, within my hands or the hands of others, it seems a card that generates such advantage as to make games actually less interesting (at least, on a kitchen table level, it can be moderately interesting in a more competitive setting, such as a high powered cube). I don't feel that it is banworthy, but it is increasingly becoming a card that I just don't want to run. I mean, I'm happy when it's in my hand, but it never seems fun.
Are there any cards that you intentionally leave out of decks for these reasons? I have a short list myself.
(On the other hand, I feel that Rings of Brighthearth, despite being strong, is simply always fun).
Does anyone over in your group (or the RC even) play with Necropotence in their decks?
Not a lot of Necropotence, no. I haven't found a deck where it seems like a good fit.
Not running a card because you wouldn't have fun with it is the most important reason not to run a card.
I tend to eschew obvious cards and combos. Most of my decks won't contain the usual stapes (except Reliquary Tower and some sad robots). Victory is having people say "what the hell does that card do?"
What dragon is your favorite to play in this format?
Weirdly, I've played very few dragons. Keiga was in Barrin. Niv makes an appearance in Zedruu. Scourge of Kher Ridges showed up in Ulasht, but that's about it. There's no particular reason for that, it just seems to have worked out that way.
If you could use any one Vanguard card as a commander instead of a legendary creature, which one would you use? (Assuming you were still limited to the colors most appropriate thematically to the card)
I'd probably use Oracle myself. Or Karona.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
How would the RC approach a hypothetical printing of a Commander's Mox?
It is a 0 cost artifact that taps for mana exactly like Command Tower does. Assume that it'd be available in precon decks, so that it's dollar price would be low.
Since one of your primary ways of interacting with players is online, and those players tend to be more enfranchised, do you ever find yourself surprised by some of the questions you get asked? Like, someone will ask you something really common and you just think "really? We just talked about that".
Edit: Do you guys get any insider info from Wizards about their Commander market research or popularity research?
Doesn't do anything for Haakon, and I'm pretty sure that particular wording doesn't help Phage or the Myojins either.
We could probably figure out a rule to make it work, but it'd be inelegant and pretty scary in the corners. It's not worth it.
Scott is Organized Play and worked on a couple of sets, right? Didn't one of you also work with the MTGO coding?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I preface these questions, in that I personally have been playing for a very long time. I am significantly older than most of the players at the local store that I go to (I have been playing longer than some have been alive...), as are most of the players at my local store who identify themselves as Commander format players. The young ones don't seem to gravitate to it, and I can see the disconnect when the older, more experienced players who have larger collections of cards are essentially the competition for the younger players. It's unintentional, but intimidating for them. And we do the best we can to separate them, when and if we can. Most do not show up when we do Commander games or we try to run a 60-card format separately for them, again when we can. Obviously we want new blood, and new players for Commander, but in my experience and my point of view the young players don't take to the format. Thoughts?
Correct.
Nope, that was all the work of former L3 judge Lee Sharpe. He was a fan of the format and knocked it out on MTGO as a weekend project. He is one of the more unheralded heroes of Commander.
I think that there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what Commander being FNM sanctionable meant.
Bird Tribal Tiny Leaders and Backdraft Unhinged with a Planechase stack are sanctioned FNM formats. Literally anything you can think up is FNM sanctionable.
Note that at the same time as they made this change, they removed the requirement that the FNM foils be given to the winners. I think that that can be taken as an indication of how they feel about the competitiveness. Basically, the FNM change was Wizards saying "yeah, we realize there's this group of people off in the corner doing their own thing. Feel free to get them registered and throw some foils at them, too"
As for beginners, Commander is about as far from a beginner format as you can get. It's rules are designed to encourage insane things to happen, and the complexity is off the charts. "Beginner" commander players are the folks that have been playing for a while, have this pile of 'unplayable' random cards that they don't know what to do with, and want something different from/in addition to their regular Standard/Modern/etc play.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
You know those inexplicable nicknames you pick up in college that randomly stick despite having no connection to anything?
Yeah, that.
(EDIT: My wife informs me "yeah, there was a reason for it. You had the least funk of anyone in the room")
Seems legit. Although judging by your promo photo, you were alive and kicking in the 70's, so it doesn't seem all that odd.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Treacherous urge would like a hilarious word with you
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Vanilla. Preferably with some caramel in it.
Bonus points for making Panglacial Wurm weird as a commander when you use him in Pommander, my commander variant where your commander has to be any creature beginning with the letter P.
That was a pretty obvious joke, I think, but I do kinda wonder if that wording would work.
On topic, if you could only have 1 EDH deck, which commander would you have?
No, I read it. I just don't think it necessarily does what you think it does. Allowing you to cast it as though it was in your hand is not the same as casting it from your hand. You need what I suggested earlier - a rule that says "for purposes of abilities that care if the card was cast from the hand, the command zone also counts." Yuck. Just not space worth exploring.
The only possible rule fix I can see is that's narrow enough and broad enough:
"If your commander allows being cast from a zone other than your hand, it may begin the game in that zone and return there when it could legally be placed in the command zone." (RIP would still shut down Haakon, poor bastard).
or maybe even:
"You may transfer your commander from the command zone to your hand in the same way as paying a morph cost [not interacting with the stack] by paying its commander tax. This activity counts as casting it from the command zone for purposes of calculating future commander tax."
This second version has the benefit of allowing the use of the variety of cheat-into-play-from-hand effects with commanders, which I don't dislike.
It's possible that the "Casting from the command zone" rule could be straight up replaced with a transfer to your hand for the cost of commander tax, but there may be some gaps in that I'm not seeing.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Would you like to reread the text you quoted? Reanimation effects won't work with that.
Also if this conversation on this topic is going to continue, it should probably split off into a different thread.
edit:
Also no.
This is wandering way afield, but the first problem here is that "for the purpose of" Magic rules-ese. That's obviously overcomeable. But, yes, I think something approximating this template, in all it's eye-bleeding glory, actually gets you what you want. Until they go and print something that breaks it in half
Zedruu. If you're going to only have one deck, make it something crazy.
Please. Do. I believe mr. Funk has answered as to his stance on said topic, and has already expressed a disinterest in debate within this thread.
Let's leave this thread for mr. Funk to divulge to us his wisdom on such topics as ice cream flavors and such forth.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Does anyone over in your group (or the RC even) play with Necropotence in their decks? The more that it comes up, within my hands or the hands of others, it seems a card that generates such advantage as to make games actually less interesting (at least, on a kitchen table level, it can be moderately interesting in a more competitive setting, such as a high powered cube). I don't feel that it is banworthy, but it is increasingly becoming a card that I just don't want to run. I mean, I'm happy when it's in my hand, but it never seems fun.
Are there any cards that you intentionally leave out of decks for these reasons? I have a short list myself.
(On the other hand, I feel that Rings of Brighthearth, despite being strong, is simply always fun).
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
Not a lot of Necropotence, no. I haven't found a deck where it seems like a good fit.
Not running a card because you wouldn't have fun with it is the most important reason not to run a card.
I tend to eschew obvious cards and combos. Most of my decks won't contain the usual stapes (except Reliquary Tower and some sad robots). Victory is having people say "what the hell does that card do?"
Weirdly, I've played very few dragons. Keiga was in Barrin. Niv makes an appearance in Zedruu. Scourge of Kher Ridges showed up in Ulasht, but that's about it. There's no particular reason for that, it just seems to have worked out that way.
I'd probably use Oracle myself. Or Karona.
It is a 0 cost artifact that taps for mana exactly like Command Tower does. Assume that it'd be available in precon decks, so that it's dollar price would be low.
Edit: Do you guys get any insider info from Wizards about their Commander market research or popularity research?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg