It's always seemed to me that two of the universal truths of EDH are that mana rocks are required, and that Green was the best color at fixing and ramping your mana. Recently, when building decks that have Green, I've kind of struggled with where to begin and end my mana acceleration package. So, I want to ask the community - what are the quintessential Green ramp cards that you put into nearly every list playing the color? What are some cards that maybe used to be good, but you've found yourself cutting recently? And, as a follow up... is there anything Green does (in the ramp department) that artifacts don't do as well or better? I'll start with some of my observations with regards to my own lists.
Since I've got a broad enough collection of shocks, Farseek is pretty much an auto-include for ramp/fixing in two and three color. But what about Rampant Growth? It's still a two-mana ramp spell, and it fixes (not as well as Farseek, but maybe I've gotten spoiled). How does Rampant Growth compare to something like Mind Stone, and would you play both? How does it compare to the Signets in decks that want those?
Ramp that comes on a creature is also pretty good value. I pretty much always play Sakura-Tribe Elder and Wood Elves (again with those shocks). I used to always play Farhaven Elf, but I've been cutting it recently as it compares so poorly to Wood Elves. Is it good enough to merit its own inclusion? I remember discussing a long while back about Yavimaya Elder's former status as a staple, and how it fell out of favor. Is anyone playing that guy, or any new mana creatures?
In a similar vein, Solemn Simulacrum is pretty desirable as an ETB and LTB value creature that ramps in any color. Would you play it in a deck with Green, though? Does Green have any four-drop options that you think are better? I think I'd play Oracle of Mul Daya first, but I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
What about Kodama's Reach and Cultivate? They pop up in the Commander pre-cons and seem like staples in budget 3-color lists. How long do they last going into more developed lists? They're ramp, fixing, and give you two cards for the price of one. Is Coalition Relic straight-up better?
It seems like I'm only including 3 or so Green cards that ramp and far more artifacts. Obviously there's pros and cons to each (the amount of Austere Command you see versus Armageddon), but just in terms of efficiency, does Green offer much more than good 'ol artifacts? What do you find yourself playing as a mana accel package? I'm quite curious.
I almost always use Kodama's Reach and Cultivate, because I like ramp that also gives me card advantage. At three mana they hit a perfect sweet spot of affordability and impact, so unless the deck is very aggressive I prefer them over 2cmc spells that only give me one land. Because artifacts tend to get blown up all the time and lands much less frequently, I don't think Coalition Relic is better either, but that's a meta call.
Explosive Vegetation is a bit too slow for me nowadays, though. I used to play it in most green decks, but I've mostly removed it. If you're content with getting forests, Skyshroud Claim is still amazing though. Tempt with Discovery can be easily worth the cost as well, especially since it searches for any land and puts it into play untapped.
There are some more situational cards that depend on your deck. I like Growth Spasm for token decks, for example, that one token can often kickstart the deck by taking a skullclamp or something like that. Primal Growth is great for decks that like to sacrifice stuff. Far Wanderings is interesting because it's far less of a dead draw later in the game than other ramp cards. On the other hand, three mana for one land is steep in the beginning.
I usually tend towards green ramp instead of artifacts in my green decks, mainly because land ramp is so much more robust. Additionally, my Kruphix deck can use cards like Wood Elves as early chump blockers because people will often try to kill me early.
I find land ramp to have more staying power than mana rocks, so I prefer that. Mana dorks are more fragile than either, but they can often make up for it with more explosive power.
If I'm playing a green deck that wants to ramp, I'll go all in on that plan. I build those lists to be more top heavy, so I don't want to get stuck with a bunch of expensive spells and not draw into the ramp to play them. I also make sure to keep my land count pretty high, because ramp is only putting you ahead if you can keep making land drops.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
I'm not sure I think wether artifacts creatures or lands are most fragile is entirely meta dependant and probly in a constabt state of flux. I don't think mana rocks are required it just so happens broken ramp is legal so sol
Ring and crypt sure but not all decks want artifacts. If your palincheon combo lands. If your running a winter orb package rocks or dorks depending on the other interactions In your deck . In multiplayer "ramp" is a far stronger effect as trying to get through 120 life is much easier to accomplish when using cards that cost more than 4. In addition even if your cast cheap spells you want to cast more than 1 per turn cycle. Now some strategies dint really need any ramp for example hermit Druid wins at 1G but I could still want to play cards like birds and noble. Now if you can get a steady stream of extra cards to never stop making land drops it's less important but even in those decks say draw go with draw engines and insant CA you still like being able to drop 2 riches while you hold up gas since you want to make use if the extra cards your drawing and your restricted to 1 land a turn. One of my favorite things to do in green decks is to much like an Azusa deck ignore land ramp to play the Azusa effects + large draw effects like time twister to flop out cards ramping in a gross fashion crcible if worlds turns these cards + one of 9 fetch lands in tri color decks enables a common engine that nets you CA as you ramp at no mana cost which is quite insane with a decent tutor density for cards that hut crucible of worlds or your extra land droppers allows you to use cabtrips and tutors as your main form of ramp in a deck like that which means less bad top decks late game like rampant growth and this kind of shell will pretty much let you taylor too finishing with control or combo easily or really anything you want since your just putting the buiness spells into a shell designed to let you efficiently get out the cards you want with the other cards you intended them to be played with. I have maybe 10 bug builds that use this shell and while they finish the game in any number of ways the + landrop engine is what wins it games.
If you're ramping up to three- or four-mana spells, you may want one-drop dorks: Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves, Green Sun's Zenith with Dryad Arbor, etc. You also want these if you're doing the Elves! Strategy, denying land-based mana, and so on.
It really depends on the deck, and there's no magic formula. Mind Stone is great if you're playing things like Sun Titan and Rings of Brighthearth. I will often play green signets and talismans over things like Rampant Growth because I can use the mana right away and they fix better. It's pretty dependent on your metagame and deck though.
I will add to the conversation that I really like some green enchantment ramp, such as Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl, Overgrowth, Dawn's Reflection, and Market Festival. They can tap right away and give you great value for what they cost. Unless you have a bunch of people constantly trying to Strip Mine you or blowing up Oblivion Stones, they're usually a good choice.
I really am developing a love of mana dorks, and Cultivate/Kodama's Reach are back in my heart as I've tried building some decks with more aggressive curves (and so running fewer lands).
In green I'll always start by asking the same questions I ask in other decks:
1) What do I want to cast early? What plays are going to bust the game open if I do them early, vs. curving out?
2) What ramp methods can further my other game plans?
ex. decks that can generate value out of creatures may want to run mana dorks (see Animar, Karametra, etc.). Decks that can interact with sorceries may want to jam ramp spells. Decks that have lots of ways to shut the board down or punish people for using lands may be interested in goofy cards like Collective Voyage (similarly, decks that just play huge threats may like spells like that; if you're going to T&N for the win next turn off of an early voyage, it may be worth it). Decks that generate tons of cards in hand may want stuff like Exploration/Burgeoning
I try to use creature ramp as much as possible in Ephara, and in Skullbriar I try to use only ramp that plays off of his enchantress theme or stuff that accelerates a T1 Skullbriar.
Jenara..eh, her ramp package is pretty weird, and mostly focused on getting a Serra Sanctum engine going or abusing Crucible and fetchlands.
It depends on what your deck wants to do, but most of my green decks usually have skyshroud claim, nature's lore, three visits, gaea's cradle (usually accompanied by Crop rotation), and Sakura tribe elder.
From there it varies. Animar wants more creature based ramp than spell based (wood elves, farhaven elf, yavimaya granger), while wort the raidmother wants more spell-based ramp (the aforementioned spells plus hunting wilds and reap and sow), and 1-drop Edric wants mana dorks like llanowar elves, elvish mystic, elvish pioneer, priest of Titania, along with exploration and a gsz-dryad arbor package.
I have used Gyre Sage to great effect. If you have anything that generates big mana, like Nykthos, or Coffers using something that untaps them like Kiora's Follower or Voyaging Satyr can do some pretty degenerate things.
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Since I've got a broad enough collection of shocks, Farseek is pretty much an auto-include for ramp/fixing in two and three color. But what about Rampant Growth? It's still a two-mana ramp spell, and it fixes (not as well as Farseek, but maybe I've gotten spoiled). How does Rampant Growth compare to something like Mind Stone, and would you play both? How does it compare to the Signets in decks that want those?
Ramp that comes on a creature is also pretty good value. I pretty much always play Sakura-Tribe Elder and Wood Elves (again with those shocks). I used to always play Farhaven Elf, but I've been cutting it recently as it compares so poorly to Wood Elves. Is it good enough to merit its own inclusion? I remember discussing a long while back about Yavimaya Elder's former status as a staple, and how it fell out of favor. Is anyone playing that guy, or any new mana creatures?
In a similar vein, Solemn Simulacrum is pretty desirable as an ETB and LTB value creature that ramps in any color. Would you play it in a deck with Green, though? Does Green have any four-drop options that you think are better? I think I'd play Oracle of Mul Daya first, but I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
What about Kodama's Reach and Cultivate? They pop up in the Commander pre-cons and seem like staples in budget 3-color lists. How long do they last going into more developed lists? They're ramp, fixing, and give you two cards for the price of one. Is Coalition Relic straight-up better?
Does anyone play things like Explosive Vegetation? How do you think it compares to, say, Worn Powerstone?
It seems like I'm only including 3 or so Green cards that ramp and far more artifacts. Obviously there's pros and cons to each (the amount of Austere Command you see versus Armageddon), but just in terms of efficiency, does Green offer much more than good 'ol artifacts? What do you find yourself playing as a mana accel package? I'm quite curious.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Explosive Vegetation is a bit too slow for me nowadays, though. I used to play it in most green decks, but I've mostly removed it. If you're content with getting forests, Skyshroud Claim is still amazing though. Tempt with Discovery can be easily worth the cost as well, especially since it searches for any land and puts it into play untapped.
There are some more situational cards that depend on your deck. I like Growth Spasm for token decks, for example, that one token can often kickstart the deck by taking a skullclamp or something like that. Primal Growth is great for decks that like to sacrifice stuff. Far Wanderings is interesting because it's far less of a dead draw later in the game than other ramp cards. On the other hand, three mana for one land is steep in the beginning.
I usually tend towards green ramp instead of artifacts in my green decks, mainly because land ramp is so much more robust. Additionally, my Kruphix deck can use cards like Wood Elves as early chump blockers because people will often try to kill me early.
I find land ramp to have more staying power than mana rocks, so I prefer that. Mana dorks are more fragile than either, but they can often make up for it with more explosive power.
If I'm playing a green deck that wants to ramp, I'll go all in on that plan. I build those lists to be more top heavy, so I don't want to get stuck with a bunch of expensive spells and not draw into the ramp to play them. I also make sure to keep my land count pretty high, because ramp is only putting you ahead if you can keep making land drops.
Ring and crypt sure but not all decks want artifacts. If your palincheon combo lands. If your running a winter orb package rocks or dorks depending on the other interactions In your deck . In multiplayer "ramp" is a far stronger effect as trying to get through 120 life is much easier to accomplish when using cards that cost more than 4. In addition even if your cast cheap spells you want to cast more than 1 per turn cycle. Now some strategies dint really need any ramp for example hermit Druid wins at 1G but I could still want to play cards like birds and noble. Now if you can get a steady stream of extra cards to never stop making land drops it's less important but even in those decks say draw go with draw engines and insant CA you still like being able to drop 2 riches while you hold up gas since you want to make use if the extra cards your drawing and your restricted to 1 land a turn. One of my favorite things to do in green decks is to much like an Azusa deck ignore land ramp to play the Azusa effects + large draw effects like time twister to flop out cards ramping in a gross fashion crcible if worlds turns these cards + one of 9 fetch lands in tri color decks enables a common engine that nets you CA as you ramp at no mana cost which is quite insane with a decent tutor density for cards that hut crucible of worlds or your extra land droppers allows you to use cabtrips and tutors as your main form of ramp in a deck like that which means less bad top decks late game like rampant growth and this kind of shell will pretty much let you taylor too finishing with control or combo easily or really anything you want since your just putting the buiness spells into a shell designed to let you efficiently get out the cards you want with the other cards you intended them to be played with. I have maybe 10 bug builds that use this shell and while they finish the game in any number of ways the + landrop engine is what wins it games.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
If you're going for big spells in hurry like Maelstrom Wanderer decks typically do, you'll probably want one or more of the following: Skyshroud Claim, Explosive Vegetation, Hunting Wilds, and Ranger's Path.
If you're ramping up to three- or four-mana spells, you may want one-drop dorks: Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves, Green Sun's Zenith with Dryad Arbor, etc. You also want these if you're doing the Elves! Strategy, denying land-based mana, and so on.
You also may want extra land drops: Burgeoning, Exploration, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, and Oracle of Mul Daya.
If you're going enchantress or really want three mana on turn two, consider Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl.
Color fixing - Highland Weald, Boreal Shelf, etc.
Card advantage - Scrying Sheets
Removal - Mouth of Ronom
Win condition - Dark Depths
I will add to the conversation that I really like some green enchantment ramp, such as Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl, Overgrowth, Dawn's Reflection, and Market Festival. They can tap right away and give you great value for what they cost. Unless you have a bunch of people constantly trying to Strip Mine you or blowing up Oblivion Stones, they're usually a good choice.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
I really am developing a love of mana dorks, and Cultivate/Kodama's Reach are back in my heart as I've tried building some decks with more aggressive curves (and so running fewer lands).
In green I'll always start by asking the same questions I ask in other decks:
1) What do I want to cast early? What plays are going to bust the game open if I do them early, vs. curving out?
2) What ramp methods can further my other game plans?
ex. decks that can generate value out of creatures may want to run mana dorks (see Animar, Karametra, etc.). Decks that can interact with sorceries may want to jam ramp spells. Decks that have lots of ways to shut the board down or punish people for using lands may be interested in goofy cards like Collective Voyage (similarly, decks that just play huge threats may like spells like that; if you're going to T&N for the win next turn off of an early voyage, it may be worth it). Decks that generate tons of cards in hand may want stuff like Exploration/Burgeoning
I try to use creature ramp as much as possible in Ephara, and in Skullbriar I try to use only ramp that plays off of his enchantress theme or stuff that accelerates a T1 Skullbriar.
Jenara..eh, her ramp package is pretty weird, and mostly focused on getting a Serra Sanctum engine going or abusing Crucible and fetchlands.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
From there it varies. Animar wants more creature based ramp than spell based (wood elves, farhaven elf, yavimaya granger), while wort the raidmother wants more spell-based ramp (the aforementioned spells plus hunting wilds and reap and sow), and 1-drop Edric wants mana dorks like llanowar elves, elvish mystic, elvish pioneer, priest of Titania, along with exploration and a gsz-dryad arbor package.
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