I suppose this wouldn't be too great of a concern for me if I had access to green, but as a Jeskai player, my options are limited.
This doesn't even make sense. "I wouldn't mind diluting my green deck with cards like Kodama's Reach but I mind diluting my UWR deck by playing Chromatic Lantern." Huh? They're both ramp, so what's the problem?
Your choices are pretty obvious:
Play artifact ramp. (Or whatever else you come up.)
Lower your mana requirements. My eyes bugged out at this, "I routinely witness myself saying things like 'If only I had seventeen mana.'"
Find ways to punish your opponents for excessive ramping.
Sounds like you don't want to do the first two for whatever reason, which leaves you the third. The good news is that W and R are the best colors for that. The bad news is your play group might take you outside after the game for letting Armageddon and Jokulhaups fly. I guess you could try Mana Web too, though it's easily played around.
minor correction: not being in black DOES NOT prevent you from using urborg, tomb of yawgmoth. also, it allows you to run karma and laugh maniacally.
sure your opponents can ramp like mad, and the urborg might be helping them smoothen their mana a bit... but at the cost of some life, every upkeep!
Then your opponents laugh at you on your turn when Karma punches you in the face while one of them has an Urborg on the board.
Yes, but you have Zedruu and are gaining life to offset the Karma. And if they're land ramping, then they're taking more damage than you. You play the Karma only when you benefit (duh).
I think a lot of EDH decks don't need much ramp at all, making your land drops consistently is much more important in many decks. I prefer playing 40 lands and a lot of card draw to playing 35 and 10 ramp spells. Your deck might be a bit slower, but it should also be more consistent and you will draw more actual business spells, thus being able to do more.
Obviously if you want to play with a high curve you need to include ramp, but with a normal curve this isn't really necessary, and can allow you to play more spells. Like others have said there are other ways to level the playing field which you can use too.
In any case it is really deck dependent outside of Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, which should be in every deck.
In Kaalia you want to play 2 cmc mana stones to get her out on turn 3 before removal.
In Sidisi you will want to play creature based ramp.
In Marchesa you won't want to play much ramp as you want to play more creatures.
In a deck like Talrand you don't want to play ramp to maximize spell count.
In most UW control decks you'll prefer land search cards like Land Tax rather than ramp.
Just choose whatever fits your deck best.
Actually, though Sol Ring works for me, I never found Mana Crypt to be worthwhile. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I always lost more life than the mana was worth.
In any case it is really deck dependent outside of Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, which should be in every deck.
I actually have yet to put Sol Ring into a deck I am building from scratch, as either my color requirements are high enough that I don't even want to run more than 2 colorless utility lands, or my curve is so low that the ramp isn't very useful. Add in my dislike of tutors due to them slowing the game and it makes a deck built around requiring fast mana not reliable for me.
I wouldn't just play geddon or jhops as an answer to ramp because you're jeskai. Yes you have access to awesome land destruction, but you have to have credible threat on board before you awkwardly make yourself that "jerk" that obliterates because they have 8 mana and nothing to do while behind.
Instead, use marchesa ... Play low curve... Leave out all the shenanigans because everyone is completely kidding themselves to think any non green deck has a chance when not ramping. Yes certain decks can deliver painful blows to ramp drop bombs strategy, but rarely can they keep up when those bombs are tooth and nail, rite replication list goes on and on with ramp being extremely powerful. Shenanigans for marchesa would be thinking tapping out to play flayed of hate bound is actually gonna have much impact.
Leave it out and stick with 2-3 cc creatures as a whole.
Then get to 6 or 8 mana and jhops or obliterate for the TRUE W!
Also most u/w good stuff arbiter decks laugh at ramp. They're are some really grief tax to control bombs.
Cyclonic rift is almost auto win in our play group. Rift swing hard... Your basically time walking x turns to recover.
That's how I see nonRamp... How much impact am I making to my next board state. I always feel non green strats are time walking themselves into plays to just keep up with GREENx (usually green/blue is nasty)
Elfball commanders don't really use mana rocks probably because every creature is a potential mana rock. I think it really comes down to creature based ramp and having a low curve to get away with not playing high powered mana rocks.
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My favorite solution to players that over-extend too early, too heavily, is Balancing Act. Most of the time when I play it, everybody's going down to five permanents and two cards and one player in particular is discarding 10+ cards or sacrificing 8+ lands. It's not always an awesome card and can often be a blank (unless you have something like Greater Gargadon to give it more control), but it'll handily deal with opponents who try to win by massive advantage swings.
Other solutions are to simply play things like the aforementioned overload artifact destruction spell, like shattering spree. I like Spree in a mono-red deck in particular, a turn four cast for four can wipe the board of some of the worst offending rock rampers and really punish them for trying to come out the gate swinging.
I think a lot of decks out there over-ramp. It's important to think about what you're trying to do. Most decks want some kind of ramp but frankly I strongly bias myself toward ramp that fixes (e.g. Selesnya Signet over Worn Powerstone).
Another thing I think people play too much of is ramp that costs more than 2CMC. Most of the 3+ cmc ramp spells are dead later in the game whereas 2CMC ramp spells you can just play incidentally most of the time rather than time walking yourself to cast Explosive Vegetation or Gilded Lotus on Turn 9 (though Lotus is often OK, it can be very risky in 3-color decks to tap down 5 other lands for it).
The other big mistake I see in manabases/ramping is decks that play fewer than 40 lands and no low CMC card draw, while trying to curve out. Your choices are pretty much "run 40 lands" or "run a bunch of 1-3 cmc draw spells." It's absolutely critical that you hit all your early land drops if you're trying to play light on ramp, and that usually means running some cheap draw spells (Mulldrifter, here's lookin' at you!)
Back to the OP:
With a deck like Zedruu, because of his color intensiveness, I would err on the side of color producing 2-drop ramp, since you want him out on turn 3 most of the time and then to have mana open most of the time - much like my Ephara deck.
More talismans and signets and fewer fat mana rocks. Gilded Lotus is usually bad for 3-color decks that want 3 pips on their commander imho. The mana myrs might be worth your time too.
Since you're un UWR you probably want to avoid Stony Silence/Null Rod. I'd use more stuff like:
minor correction: not being in black DOES NOT prevent you from using urborg, tomb of yawgmoth. also, it allows you to run karma and laugh maniacally.
sure your opponents can ramp like mad, and the urborg might be helping them smoothen their mana a bit... but at the cost of some life, every upkeep!
Then your opponents laugh at you on your turn when Karma punches you in the face while one of them has an Urborg on the board.
Much like Price of Progress, the idea is that it does more damage to your opponents. If they're ramping and you're not, Karma will do more damage to them than to you.
Not the best strategy, but it's not completely untenable.
minor correction: not being in black DOES NOT prevent you from using urborg, tomb of yawgmoth. also, it allows you to run karma and laugh maniacally.
sure your opponents can ramp like mad, and the urborg might be helping them smoothen their mana a bit... but at the cost of some life, every upkeep!
Then your opponents laugh at you on your turn when Karma punches you in the face while one of them has an Urborg on the board.
Much like Price of Progress, the idea is that it does more damage to your opponents. If they're ramping and you're not, Karma will do more damage to them than to you.
Not the best strategy, but it's not completely untenable.
yea i suppose i should've been a bit more explicit. combos also with tamanoa.
This doesn't even make sense. "I wouldn't mind diluting my green deck with cards like Kodama's Reach but I mind diluting my UWR deck by playing Chromatic Lantern." Huh? They're both ramp, so what's the problem?
Your choices are pretty obvious:
Sounds like you don't want to do the first two for whatever reason, which leaves you the third. The good news is that W and R are the best colors for that. The bad news is your play group might take you outside after the game for letting Armageddon and Jokulhaups fly. I guess you could try Mana Web too, though it's easily played around.
Yes, but you have Zedruu and are gaining life to offset the Karma. And if they're land ramping, then they're taking more damage than you. You play the Karma only when you benefit (duh).
Obviously if you want to play with a high curve you need to include ramp, but with a normal curve this isn't really necessary, and can allow you to play more spells. Like others have said there are other ways to level the playing field which you can use too.
In any case it is really deck dependent outside of Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, which should be in every deck.
In Kaalia you want to play 2 cmc mana stones to get her out on turn 3 before removal.
In Sidisi you will want to play creature based ramp.
In Marchesa you won't want to play much ramp as you want to play more creatures.
In a deck like Talrand you don't want to play ramp to maximize spell count.
In most UW control decks you'll prefer land search cards like Land Tax rather than ramp.
Just choose whatever fits your deck best.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
I actually have yet to put Sol Ring into a deck I am building from scratch, as either my color requirements are high enough that I don't even want to run more than 2 colorless utility lands, or my curve is so low that the ramp isn't very useful. Add in my dislike of tutors due to them slowing the game and it makes a deck built around requiring fast mana not reliable for me.
GRUAnimar, Soul of CreaturesGRU
GWGW Tokens: Rhys,Tolsimir, or Trostani GW
BMarrow-GnawerB
BGSkullbriar, All's fun in the GraveBG
RWBAlesha, Who Smiles at DeathRWB
Instead, use marchesa ... Play low curve... Leave out all the shenanigans because everyone is completely kidding themselves to think any non green deck has a chance when not ramping. Yes certain decks can deliver painful blows to ramp drop bombs strategy, but rarely can they keep up when those bombs are tooth and nail, rite replication list goes on and on with ramp being extremely powerful. Shenanigans for marchesa would be thinking tapping out to play flayed of hate bound is actually gonna have much impact.
Leave it out and stick with 2-3 cc creatures as a whole.
Then get to 6 or 8 mana and jhops or obliterate for the TRUE W!
Also most u/w good stuff arbiter decks laugh at ramp. They're are some really grief tax to control bombs.
Cyclonic rift is almost auto win in our play group. Rift swing hard... Your basically time walking x turns to recover.
That's how I see nonRamp... How much impact am I making to my next board state. I always feel non green strats are time walking themselves into plays to just keep up with GREENx (usually green/blue is nasty)
EDH/Commander: Karn silver golem (foiled), Narset combo, Maelstrom Wanderer random goodies, Nekusar grixis draw stuff, freyalise, Gissa Zombies!, marchesa obliterate,
Prosh just wins!,
--- Will WOTC just visit Cybertron already! ----
Other solutions are to simply play things like the aforementioned overload artifact destruction spell, like shattering spree. I like Spree in a mono-red deck in particular, a turn four cast for four can wipe the board of some of the worst offending rock rampers and really punish them for trying to come out the gate swinging.
As for ways to ramp yourself, most of my deck lists include Armillary Sphere, Journeyer's Kite, Pilgrim's Eye, Expedition Map, burnished hart, and Wayfarer's Bauble. Getting them blown up seldom results in loss of cards, and they do a great job of ensuring you can get your 5-6 mana spells in play on curve.
Another thing I think people play too much of is ramp that costs more than 2CMC. Most of the 3+ cmc ramp spells are dead later in the game whereas 2CMC ramp spells you can just play incidentally most of the time rather than time walking yourself to cast Explosive Vegetation or Gilded Lotus on Turn 9 (though Lotus is often OK, it can be very risky in 3-color decks to tap down 5 other lands for it).
The other big mistake I see in manabases/ramping is decks that play fewer than 40 lands and no low CMC card draw, while trying to curve out. Your choices are pretty much "run 40 lands" or "run a bunch of 1-3 cmc draw spells." It's absolutely critical that you hit all your early land drops if you're trying to play light on ramp, and that usually means running some cheap draw spells (Mulldrifter, here's lookin' at you!)
Back to the OP:
With a deck like Zedruu, because of his color intensiveness, I would err on the side of color producing 2-drop ramp, since you want him out on turn 3 most of the time and then to have mana open most of the time - much like my Ephara deck.
More talismans and signets and fewer fat mana rocks. Gilded Lotus is usually bad for 3-color decks that want 3 pips on their commander imho. The mana myrs might be worth your time too.
Since you're un UWR you probably want to avoid Stony Silence/Null Rod. I'd use more stuff like:
Return to Dust main phase to kill Gilded Lotus and Grim Monolith was one of the strongest plays I've ever made with it
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Not the best strategy, but it's not completely untenable.
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yea i suppose i should've been a bit more explicit. combos also with tamanoa.
back on topic, if you don't wanna use mana rocks, rituals also exist (dark ritual, simian spirit guide, burnt offering, mana short). they're generally better in 1v1 though, and probably better use in more competitive play than anything else.
turn1 dark ritual into hypnotic spectre is a thing.
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