I have overall fatigue in deck building these days and would love some insight as of latest commander ideas. If you wish not to read... Input on besting ramp strategies and deck ideas are helpful.
Brief overview:
A good friend has finetuned decks that's dominating our play group. He ramps hard in most decks and when not ramping he's using blue to great effect. I have now resorted to less ramp, less search ect. Now it's hard to compete.
I've made and played many decks and taken apart ones too "good" for our group.
Fun includes but isn't limited to.
-Mass land removal
-Playing mass wipes just to start game over (obliterate!) unless to win game (marchesa-obliterate)
-not much combo
Ect
Where this lands me is with the likes of... I'm playing
-Karn (foiled artifacts) fairly weak
-Maelstrom wander (best deck as it card adv and ramp)
-Jazal goldmane, equipment and white goodstuff (too slow)
-marchesa(too slow)
-sliver overlor slow slow and all non ramp is slow
-gisa
-daretti
All these decks excluding wanderer get overpowered by ramp, ramp control or in my case talrand blue !
Cards that are exploiting us to team up 3 on 1 many times include.
Ramp and tutors
-glissa artifacts, abusing thornbite staff, mindslaver, rec oblivion stone, boiling plague, death cloud is just atrocious. Ect
-Damian SUPER ramp, infinite fogs, clacial chasm, azusa with avenger zendikar.
-xenogos, we lost to an amazing planglacial wurm with savage beating. I admire it wholly but it ramps and beats down!
-talrand drake flying army. Yes it even ramps.. Usually his turns are turn1/2 artifact mana, talrand, cheap instants, then game Enders like coat of arms, time warp, recur time warp ... And or bounce board after searching for cyclonic rift. Also a polymorph effect to get one of few monster blue dudes to deal with such as tidespout tyrant.
-arbiter ... Ramp and a nightmare. Our play group huffs and puffs at this deck!
I'm sitting with 3 white and he has 12 mana !
I build a board .. He just wipes it and take while to recover.
I won't go on much more so how do others deal with ramp strategies?
What are some fun good interactive decks now? Or non interactive?
Narset? Search for a few pieces such as scroll rack and top then have field day with bombs?
I also find myself pushing many "cool" pieces into decks and he just wins off well tuned to odd cards such as
energy tap(big blue dude) then casting tide for double U. Ect ect.
It's part rant. Hope it's not too painful as I typed on iPad.
Night n thx for input
This is a bad answer. Ramp decks will tend to recover the best from MLD, and what you are proposing screws over the other players in the game for no reason at all. Not the best plan when you want to keep the game fun for other people as well.
Cryo is 100% right. MLD is not an answer to ramp. It is an inconvenience to hyper-ramp which makes things miserable for others.
The best way to beat ramp is to limit the benefits the super-rampy player gets from having huge amount of mana available. Effects like Rule of Law, which restrict how effectively someone can use that mana, backed up by countermagic, make for some of your best options. You can overcome some of how this limits your own gameplan by utilizing flash effects and cards like Vedalken Orrery or Prophet of Kruphix in order to be able to take more actions on opponents' turns.
I play a lot of red and a lot of white. This is largely regarded as a bad move.
Still, I need to address ramp and you should too. The things that have helped me significantly, card-wise:
Oath of Lieges in every white deck (as well as Knight of the White Orchid and/or Weathered Wayfarer). The big deal about Oath is that it consistently helps the entire table ramp to catch up with the runaway ramp player. While it's sometimes annoying that it accelerates the pace of the game so much, it promises that answers will be around for the Archenemy.
Heavy-handed artifact destruction is my second major go-to. My rule of thumb is that if any artifact produces 2 or more mana, it should be destroyed unless that player is obviously struggling otherwise. My mainstays are Shattering Spree, Shattering Pulse, Meltdown, Vandalblast, Manic Vandal, Rack and Ruin, and Into the Core. Run some of these and you will do your playgroup a great service. Somebody's gotta smash those Thran Dynamos!
Targeted land destruction is also a huge deal! Cabal Coffers is a kill-on-sight, as are many other multi-mana producing or otherwise huge utility lands. You can run the Strip Mine effects in every deck. As a red player, I enjoy Pillage, Fissure Vent, and Vandalize, because hitting two sources of mana is just always so much sweeter.
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Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
problem is that the other players would see you as their greatest threat, but you're going to have to convince them that the dude with 15 lands on turn 3 or whatever is the one they should be watching out for, and you're going to be hitting the ramp dude much harder than the others anyways.
like cryo said, mass land-D isn't really the way to deal with ramp, since they're going to recover faster (unless they scapeshift/Mana Severanced themselves dry).
My favorite answers to ramp are tutor hate and rule of law effects. Hopefully we get some more tutor hate effects
Wrath effects are pretty strong against ramp too; if you curve into Wrath of God when they're casting huge threats on turn 4-5, you're probably going to make some CA That said, instant speed wraths/mass bounce are probably preferable if they tend to run lots of haste enablers.
Mana hate dudes like Vorinclex can be pretty good.
You can definitely build decks that curve out without tons of ramp in EDH if you pick your cards carefully and pay attention to card advantage, curve, tempo and control.
My Ephara deck is, I think, a pretty good example of a deck that doesn't ramp particularly hard (there's zero non-2-drop ramp), but I curve out almost every game (playing stuff every turn and usually having good answers). It hates really hard on ramp by denying tutors, shutting down big turns, cloning or stealing huge threats, generating chump blockers, etc. Generally trying to generate tempo or card advantage with each play.
MLD is really only good as a finisher, and while it is particularly good at preventing ramp decks from topdecking a win (e.g. 20 lands out, empty board, empty hand, topdeck a genesis wave -- happened more than a few times to me:) it's not really an answer - you have to control the board before MLD is good.
Don't forget the new On Nixilus (no card link because I know I misspelled it). That's probably tier 3 tutor hate, below Stranglehold and Aven Mindcenor.
One of the best cards against big ramp decks is Humility. I know I'm always pushing this card on this forum, but it will kill the ramp player right in his rampy romp. Most of the time, those sort of decks use ETB effects for removal, so it kills green tutor for answers also. It's just the best card in the format.
Humility falls into the "multiple for one" effects category in my book; you spend one card to cancel many other cards (e.g. all the creatures they put out). Humility is like a permanent "wrath" and a torpor orb in one which is huge. It'll often gain you a grip of cards in exchange for one. Speaking of which, Torpor orb is a great card, as is Hushwing Gryff. Many, many ramp decks use a raft of ETB effects to win (Craterhoof, for example).
And that's the overall key to fighting ramp decks. It's the age old control vs. aggro/ramp paradigm - they put all their cards on the board and you kill them all with supreme verdict or wrath or whatever, negating the advantage.
It's worth noting that you usually get a tempo advantage in addition to the card advantage - you spend 4 mana to counter them spending 16 mana, or whatever, in addition to the 30 mana the rest of the board spent on their creatures, or whatever.
You've got to be more efficient than the ramp deck. That's really all there is to it at the core.
Creature ramp can be beaten by board wipes (not gonna list them for obv reasons), ways to deny ETB, ways to deny activated abilities. You can also punish playing them period.
In cases where they only cast big spells and only put ramp into play for the earliest game, you can try stax approach to keep them behind while people with lower curves can still operate.
Brief overview:
A good friend has finetuned decks that's dominating our play group. He ramps hard in most decks and when not ramping he's using blue to great effect. I have now resorted to less ramp, less search ect. Now it's hard to compete.
I've made and played many decks and taken apart ones too "good" for our group.
Fun includes but isn't limited to.
-Mass land removal
-Playing mass wipes just to start game over (obliterate!) unless to win game (marchesa-obliterate)
-not much combo
Ect
Where this lands me is with the likes of... I'm playing
-Karn (foiled artifacts) fairly weak
-Maelstrom wander (best deck as it card adv and ramp)
-Jazal goldmane, equipment and white goodstuff (too slow)
-marchesa(too slow)
-sliver overlor slow slow and all non ramp is slow
-gisa
-daretti
All these decks excluding wanderer get overpowered by ramp, ramp control or in my case talrand blue !
Cards that are exploiting us to team up 3 on 1 many times include.
Ramp and tutors
-glissa artifacts, abusing thornbite staff, mindslaver, rec oblivion stone, boiling plague, death cloud is just atrocious. Ect
-Damian SUPER ramp, infinite fogs, clacial chasm, azusa with avenger zendikar.
-xenogos, we lost to an amazing planglacial wurm with savage beating. I admire it wholly but it ramps and beats down!
-talrand drake flying army. Yes it even ramps.. Usually his turns are turn1/2 artifact mana, talrand, cheap instants, then game Enders like coat of arms, time warp, recur time warp ... And or bounce board after searching for cyclonic rift. Also a polymorph effect to get one of few monster blue dudes to deal with such as tidespout tyrant.
-arbiter ... Ramp and a nightmare. Our play group huffs and puffs at this deck!
I'm sitting with 3 white and he has 12 mana !
I build a board .. He just wipes it and take while to recover.
I won't go on much more so how do others deal with ramp strategies?
What are some fun good interactive decks now? Or non interactive?
Narset? Search for a few pieces such as scroll rack and top then have field day with bombs?
I also find myself pushing many "cool" pieces into decks and he just wins off well tuned to odd cards such as
energy tap(big blue dude) then casting tide for double U. Ect ect.
It's part rant. Hope it's not too painful as I typed on iPad.
Night n thx for input
EDH/Commander: Karn silver golem (foiled), Narset combo, Maelstrom Wanderer random goodies, Nekusar grixis draw stuff, freyalise, Gissa Zombies!, marchesa obliterate,
Prosh just wins!,
--- Will WOTC just visit Cybertron already! ----
EDH
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
GBGlissa, the Traitor
Modern
X Affinity
EDH
BUGTasigur, the Golden Fang (French 1v1)
Modern
RWG Burn
I am sorry but your post left me really confused, don't worry I make nonsensical posts all the time, but I'll need a clarification before I can help.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
This is a bad answer. Ramp decks will tend to recover the best from MLD, and what you are proposing screws over the other players in the game for no reason at all. Not the best plan when you want to keep the game fun for other people as well.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
The best way to beat ramp is to limit the benefits the super-rampy player gets from having huge amount of mana available. Effects like Rule of Law, which restrict how effectively someone can use that mana, backed up by countermagic, make for some of your best options. You can overcome some of how this limits your own gameplan by utilizing flash effects and cards like Vedalken Orrery or Prophet of Kruphix in order to be able to take more actions on opponents' turns.
Still, I need to address ramp and you should too. The things that have helped me significantly, card-wise:
Oath of Lieges in every white deck (as well as Knight of the White Orchid and/or Weathered Wayfarer). The big deal about Oath is that it consistently helps the entire table ramp to catch up with the runaway ramp player. While it's sometimes annoying that it accelerates the pace of the game so much, it promises that answers will be around for the Archenemy.
Heavy-handed artifact destruction is my second major go-to. My rule of thumb is that if any artifact produces 2 or more mana, it should be destroyed unless that player is obviously struggling otherwise. My mainstays are Shattering Spree, Shattering Pulse, Meltdown, Vandalblast, Manic Vandal, Rack and Ruin, and Into the Core. Run some of these and you will do your playgroup a great service. Somebody's gotta smash those Thran Dynamos!
Targeted land destruction is also a huge deal! Cabal Coffers is a kill-on-sight, as are many other multi-mana producing or otherwise huge utility lands. You can run the Strip Mine effects in every deck. As a red player, I enjoy Pillage, Fissure Vent, and Vandalize, because hitting two sources of mana is just always so much sweeter.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
problem is that the other players would see you as their greatest threat, but you're going to have to convince them that the dude with 15 lands on turn 3 or whatever is the one they should be watching out for, and you're going to be hitting the ramp dude much harder than the others anyways.
like cryo said, mass land-D isn't really the way to deal with ramp, since they're going to recover faster (unless they scapeshift/Mana Severanced themselves dry).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Wrath effects are pretty strong against ramp too; if you curve into Wrath of God when they're casting huge threats on turn 4-5, you're probably going to make some CA That said, instant speed wraths/mass bounce are probably preferable if they tend to run lots of haste enablers.
Mana hate dudes like Vorinclex can be pretty good.
If they're doing lots of artifact ramp, a simple Vandalblast or Austere Command will pay massive dividends. Stony Silence is pretty strong too.
You can definitely build decks that curve out without tons of ramp in EDH if you pick your cards carefully and pay attention to card advantage, curve, tempo and control.
My Ephara deck is, I think, a pretty good example of a deck that doesn't ramp particularly hard (there's zero non-2-drop ramp), but I curve out almost every game (playing stuff every turn and usually having good answers). It hates really hard on ramp by denying tutors, shutting down big turns, cloning or stealing huge threats, generating chump blockers, etc. Generally trying to generate tempo or card advantage with each play.
MLD is really only good as a finisher, and while it is particularly good at preventing ramp decks from topdecking a win (e.g. 20 lands out, empty board, empty hand, topdeck a genesis wave -- happened more than a few times to me:) it's not really an answer - you have to control the board before MLD is good.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
And that's the overall key to fighting ramp decks. It's the age old control vs. aggro/ramp paradigm - they put all their cards on the board and you kill them all with supreme verdict or wrath or whatever, negating the advantage.
It's worth noting that you usually get a tempo advantage in addition to the card advantage - you spend 4 mana to counter them spending 16 mana, or whatever, in addition to the 30 mana the rest of the board spent on their creatures, or whatever.
You've got to be more efficient than the ramp deck. That's really all there is to it at the core.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
And Widespread Panic is way more hardcore than I thought.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Artifact ramping can be countered by repeating/persisting/mass artifact hate such as:
Kataki, War's Wage
Aura Shards
Shatterspree
Aura of Silence
Hurkyl's Recall
Stony Silence
Land ramp can be countered by denying search or preventing more lands from entering play. You can also punish them for it.
Land Equilibrium
Zo-Zu, the Punisher
Stranglehold
Aven Mindcensor
Dingus Egg
Creature ramp can be beaten by board wipes (not gonna list them for obv reasons), ways to deny ETB, ways to deny activated abilities. You can also punish playing them period.
Torpor Orb
Hushwing Gryff
Overburden
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Null Rod
In cases where they only cast big spells and only put ramp into play for the earliest game, you can try stax approach to keep them behind while people with lower curves can still operate.
Tangle Wire
Smokestack
There's more obv. but these are some good suggestions.