MTG Salvation

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on what cards a deck should have to ensure a breather from commander shenanigans. Here's a few discussed in the rules change thread, plus some more from me:

darksteel mutation - Basically able to shut down a commander until the player has either a sac outlet or an enchantment-killing effect. Boardwipes can be particularly backfire-ey.

song of the dryads - Similar to Mutation but doesn't care about creature sacrifice outlets. I'd say overall stronger unless Dust Bowl is a staple in your playgroup.

ixidron - Stops commanders until the opponent manages to get their commander killed. Sometimes this is as simple as them turning to a sympathetic player, winking, and attacking into their creatures. Though if the commander is truly problematic this shouldn't happen

My own personal suggestion:

vanishing. As long as you're willing to keep UU up, this is a great solution that can only be beat by a sac outlet in which sacrificing is part of the cost. Just phase out the commander in question during each upkeep, and if anyone tries to remove the creature or enchantment in response, phase out in response again. Since phasing isn't changing zones, it's unaffected by the rules change.

Treachery-style theft effects - Pretty good way to deny your opponent their commander, at least until they get creature removal or enchantment removal.

Govern the Guildless-style theft effects - A bit better than control magic effects because there's no other permanent keeping the effect alive. Might be particularly fun if the commander in question is indestructible.

lignify, pithing needle nevermore ect

Switcheroo is a theft-effect that requires the same amount of mana as Mind Control, but is much more difficult to stop.

Gilded Drake says hi. He was good before, and he'll be even better now.

Lignify turns powerful voltron and combo commanders into, as Bob Ross put it, happy little trees.

I myself am considering just plain old Dissipate or Counterspell as alternatives to Hinder and Crumple. I've got copies of Spin Into Myth, which may turn into ramp or just different removal in those decks. Finally, I've got one copy of Condemn in a deck, which will probably become Path to Exile once I actually get around to picking a few more up.

Personally, I'm going to ramp into Null Chamber, and pick the player who's smart enough to name the second most degenerate general.

Prison Term

I honestly think that, in the absence of an emergency banning of several generals, the best solution to the combo commander decks is to bite the bullet and play one yourself, and go off first.

Edit: For neutralizing interactive generals, Vanishing, Arrest, and the like. Assuming they are generals you can hit.

If you want to turn to the dark side: Stasis, Winter Orb, Static Orb, Sphere of Resistance, Armageddon, Jokulhaups, etc. Make that commander tax count.

If you still want to have fun - - then I like the whole Nevermore-and-company plan.

Quote from Jake1991 »

Prison Term

I like how it gets around shroud/hexproof.

Mind control effects don't work in my group because everyone runs Homeward Path. And if you start running mind control effects, I'm sure your playgroup will adjust too.

Using permanents to hold down their commander (Arrest, song of the dryads, etc) are good but have some big problems. Players can start playing more sac effects to dodge this (especially since high market is a thing), some decks already have sac outlets incorporated anyway (how many Karador decks don't have sac outlets already?). Granted, sac outlets helped against oblation and chaos warp and the like anyway, but the difference is that if you didn't have the sac outlet ready your general gets tucked, whereas using these permanents to hold down their commander can still be dealt with a sac outlet you draw later (for example, if you didn't have a sac outlet out before the oblation your general is gone, while if your general gets an Arrest on it, you can still draw into a sac outlet). White and green are good at destroying whatever is enchanting the creature, and blue has bounce. Black can just kill their own dude if they're desperate, bonus points if you take out other people's stuff in the process like fleshbag marauder and sac your affected general. I can't think of anything for red, which is kinda funny since red is already the worst color in EDH.

Like, even though sheldon said that tuck was making people lean towards blue and white, the thing is that green and black are still 2 of the 3 best colors in EDH anyway (blue is up with them, white is 4th and red a distant 5th) so like I don't really understand the problem. In addition, it's not like the entire table had to be white or blue; just one player needs to be blue and hold up 1UU to make people think twice about jamming their general into what could be spell crumple, for example. This change makes me feel that red actually gets shafted the hardest of the 5 colors which is basically the opposite of what the EDH community "wanted" (implicitly wanting more balance in the colors).

I dislike narrow answers like Nevermore because it's only affecting one opponent (unless multiple people have the same general) and the affected player will just do different things.

I honestly think the answers to problematic commanders will be too narrow to the point where you'll have to play hypercompetitive combo or stax decks and just try to ignore them. Like, if you don't do either and try to play "fair" EDH, what are you gonna do against Prossh making millions of tokens or arcum daggson being a super streamlined combo engine or derevi cheating the commander tax over and over and over again? Unless you play the ridiculous stax cards these will all require different answers, and by the time you can find things to stop them you're probably dead, so you'll need to blitz them out of the game or play said ridiculous stax cards.

Phyrexian Revoker.

Song of the Dryads dodges sac outlets, especially if you cheat it into play.

White can run Angel of Jubilation alongside darksteel mutation, Arrest, etc.


I am just happy Terminus no longer takes me out of the game. And happy I can take Grand Abolisher out, since I hate when it gets cloned.

Path to Exile, Counterspell.

Seriously, with a few exceptions, good 'ol counters and spot removal are still the most efficient way of dealing with problems.

Nothing is really going to be a one-card solution to a Commander for a whole game anymore, so I'd rather just play catch-all removal rather than something more narrow like Nevermore.

Suppression Field can make Derevi's tax-dodging less of an issue (but not a nonissue). 6 mana is a lot more than 4 for something like that.

I like how this is supposed to reduce people's need to include tutors in their decks. Because that's why I use them. I was so bothered by tuck that I made sure to never use them for anything other than saving my general from getting lost in the 99.

But, I am now able to use my tutors for creatures OTHER THAN MY GODFORSAKEN COMMANDER!!! THANKS RC.

I'll say I am one of the players who considered using tutors simply to offset tuck. I HATE tutors in EDH, goes completely against why I play the format in the first place. But with tuck around they were alluring for those decks really revolving around the commander.

All this change did was make me spiteful and slot in Declaration of Naught. Can't tuck with Hinder? Fine. You can never, ever have your general then. Is it petty? Yes. Does it deal with generals you save Hinder for (such as Porphoros, Prossh etc?) Yes.

Tawnos's Coffin is also still good as it forces them to make a choice over and over.

For generals that rely on attacking (the card listed below don't strip abilities):
I really like Narcolepsy because it's funny, and isn't a hard lock down on the creature, but it's annoying enough to disrupt some players.

Demonic Torment is another one I've used before, but doesn't stop them from blocking with or sacrificing the targeted creature, so it's not as good as arrest, but it is off color from most arrest effects.

Gaseous Form is sort of like this but blue.

Icy Manipulator is also still a card.

Quote from Macabre »

I like how most of the "answers" thus far in this thread are blue or white, and one of the four listed criteria for the rule change was that "tuck" effects were supposedly steering people to blue and white

I thought this also. Tuck was far from the only thing that dealt with Generals semi-permanently like that. Pacifism and Theft work basically the same, and since most of them are Blue and White, the change does nothing to promote color diversity. Other than those, Maze of Ith effects are also things that attacking Generals can't play around very well. So even as a basic point, removing tuck does little to keep Timmy's commander relevant. It just makes people run to the forums to discuss alternatives, as here, then sleeve them up instead.

I have no idea what format the RC is playing that they could've never played against Prison Term with a General they didn't want neutralized. Prison Term, the vows, theft, etc, were actually printed with past Commander products with a specific emphasis on format mechanics. The main reason people weren't running those as pervasively as tuck is because of Generals like Teferi, Sharuum, Arcum, Niv Mizzet, Azami, Edric, etc, who don't care if they ever attack. They're also the more degenerate combo generals. This change helps them out, while not helping out Timmy's aggro deck at all due to the availability of other answers.

Quote from GumgodMTG »

Icy Manipulator is also still a card.

Fatestitcher is often a better card. And there's Ring of Gix too if you want that effect.

With luck, the next round of Commander decks will contain cards that prevent players from sacrificing things, so that aura-based solutions work, while also hindering certain strategies.

If tutors are an issue, why not ban them? Still, Delay and Ertai's Meddling may see more play.

Cheers!

As a black player, I would be much happier if they wouldn't print more cards that prevent you from saccing creatures.

I don't think it's as big a change as most people are saying it is. I don't play in a meta where tuck effects are incredibly prevalent. My standby is still Arrest like effects where the commander is on the field but unable to act.

I get a lot of play from Oppressive Rays

Quote from Merricks »

Nothing will change for me as I don't run any tuck.

Efficient removal like Path of Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Beast Within, Vindicate etc. will still continue to get rid of problems pretty well. With the exception of a few commanders (Derevi), the commander tax will get unmanageable for them. Especially if you Return to Dust the problem general's mana rocks.

Once you've pinged their general back to the commander zone two or three times and blown up their Sol Rings and Mana Crypts then you've given yourself enough breathing room to win.

You've also used multiple cards to stop one card, whereas with a tuck spell it's an actual 1 for 1 trade.

any reason why nobody is saying humility? doesn't target, it's global...