I like this idea! I have a Kemba, Kha Regent deck that could use some tuning.
I hate to break it to you but I'm really not a fan of Kemba. He seems really good at first but then you realize his ability isn't actually very supportive of an equipment-based strategy. I have a section on more of why I don't like him. Not saying he's bad, just some things you have to keep in mind with him.
It's a reliable blocker and/or 6 life a turn. Granted, that's a lot more important in black decks (hello, Necropotence) but it's a very strong survivability cushion regardless of color. Even in combo decks, it's very solid for keeping you alive until you go off.
It's only lackluster if both (a) you're playing a nonblack deck, AND (b) everyone else is playing combo - because at that point attacks don't matter. Of course, in such a metagame, that's when you wouldn't be running it. Outside of that, it's good, and the weaker your opponents are, the better Serra is.
This is a huge trap that people get into when they look at Ascendant. Yes, it'll give you a 12 point swing every turn - but what impact will this have over an entire game? It's often said that the only point of damage that matters is the last one. Ascendant is a prime example of this principle. The biggest problem with it is that it can only do its most serious damage early game, when life totals matter the least. Players can adjust knowing they only have 20 life to work with, or if you have 60 life from a few swings. This means Ascendant will rarely if ever do enough damage to finish a player off - 40 life is too much to wittle down, and once players have settled in, Ascendant is no longer a force.
And this is not even taking into account how bad Ascendant is past turn one - as the game goes on, the worse Ascendant gets. How often will you have Ascendant turn one? Maybe 1 out of 10 games. If a card is good in 10% of your games, and its impact is still questionable, would you play it? This is where Ascendant lies. Not to mention how big of a target he is due to early threat-ism.
Made a few updates to the primer. Just a disclaimer - as I stated in my primer, there will be a lot of common white staples that I will question, and a lot of obscure white cards that are actually really good. Please be mindful of that.
In a control oriented list I'd argue that Serra Ascendant doesn't belong, but in aggro or 1v1 (any deck with white) it would most certainly belong.
It may be true that only the last point of damage matters, but if one creature you spent one mana on on turn one did the first 30...I'd say it pulled it's weight.
I've recently went mono white myself with Nahiri, and it's been a blast to play. definitely all for a mono white primer.
There could maybe even be a section on how to hate out strategies? white seems to have so many cards that can hose specific strategies, but perhaps it's just my imagination
Actually I have to say, that I already disagree to you on your first couple sentences. White is actually a nice color to hose enemys. Stax is strong, and it just pairs nicely with cards like Luminarchs Ascension.
You need to know when you have to play it - but if you do it's mostly GG.
Not exactly sure what you're saying. I've listed Stax as one of white's strengths. If you're saying Luminarch is good when you've already locked down the board, then that is the definition of a win-more card.
Do you think it's a viable strategy or a waste of monoW possibilities?
I like life gain as a sub strategy in mono-white. There are a lot of cards that give incidental life gain (such as Mastery of the Unseen, Archangel of Thune or even High Market), which would still allow you to use Well or Book of Rass.
As a dedicated strategy, I'm not sure how strong it can be without black though, but I could be wrong.
If you locked down the board - what's your wincon? Locking it down even further?
Several 4/4 Angels per turn seems decent to me. Even further though, you only need two mana to get around effects like Smokestack or World Queller.
I think this guy is making a good point that the OP is refusing to listen to. You have to have some way to win, and this is a solid card in a dedicated stax list. Great late game finisher, even better than Entreat the Angels since it doesn't die to a wipe.
If you locked down the board - what's your wincon? Locking it down even further?
Several 4/4 Angels per turn seems decent to me. Even further though, you only need two mana to get around effects like Smokestack or World Queller.
Sure, it can be a decent wincon for stax. Okay, I'll clarify it (And Ascendant). They aren't "bad" cards, they just aren't necessarily autoincludes. The main point I'm trying to make with them is so that people don't think they are better than they actually are - undercosted beaters whose impact lessens significantly in EDH.
Hey Telekinesis (and everybody else) what do you think about lifegain in monowhite? White have a lot of ways to accumulate life, that can be used for value with cards like Well of Lost Dreams, Book of Rass, Archangel of Thune, Cradle of Vitality etc... There are also generals that fit this playstile like Gerrard Capashen or Patron of the Kitsune. Do you think it's a viable strategy or a waste of monoW possibilities?
I'm of the opinion you should only run lifegain cards that also have a second function that synergizes with your game plan.
For example, I run Archangel of Thune in my Gahiji deck, because at the very least, she alone is decent at boosting armies. Now that I'm running her, though, it's tempting to run other sources of lifegain. But I should only really consider lifegain cards that are still valuable in a token horde deck regardless of whether she's on the board, for example Soul Warden, Balefire Liege or Elspeth Tirel.
Lifegain for the sake of lifegain simply isn't worth it in a powerful multiplayer format. My meta is maybe a 7 on the power scale and our Rafiq player or Gisela player or Narset player or Bruna player can carve through dozens of HP in two or three turns without too much contrivance.
If you locked down the board - what's your wincon? Locking it down even further?
Several 4/4 Angels per turn seems decent to me. Even further though, you only need two mana to get around effects like Smokestack or World Queller.
Seems to me that a commander like Heliod, God of the Sun serves as an engine for both stax targets and win condition.
Clarified some points in the basics section. White basically assembles powerful engines that can bury opponents in card advantage, either through Land Tax + Scroll Rack, Skullclamp engine, sac + recur engine, or flicker engine. There are other ways to build card advantage of course, but these are the consistent and effective.
This is really helpful information. My first deck I tried putting together was based around Kemba (because kitties) and it just wasn't working out for me. I'm having better luck with my R/W deck but I wouldn't be averse to trying mono-white again. Keep up the good work!
TK, I'm happy to see you back. I always love reading your thoughts on mono-white, and definitely prefer your contrarian viewpoints regarding white to most other "parroting" that goes on within the boards.
Love what I'm seeing so far on page-1. I'd recommend adding Linvala, Keeper of Silence to the list of white commanders. In a vacuum, it has pretty much everything I look for in a control commander:
It can come down in the early-mid game. - It drives me completely insane when people talk about their commanders as tools in their control decks, then run a cmc8 creature in that slot. If you're waiting until you have that much mana before you begin instating your control plan, you're definitely behind at that point.
It has an immediate effect on the board/ - Playing your commander, then gaining no benefit from its ability until your next turn is just not good enough (sorry Kemba).
It can actually withstand more than a stiff breeze. - The thing that bothers me more than anything else about my own mono-white commander (Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker) is that it can literally do nothing in a fight. Massacre Wurm is pretty omnipresent. Cards like Magmaquake and Starstorm are a thing. People play and attack with utility creatures in the early game. With a 4-toughness butt on this, you actually stand a chance of using that to decent effect. And it even has flying, giving you more reach as a chump-blocker.
It provides control without any other pieces of an engine to augment its effect. - Control engines and card advantage engines are awesome. But sometimes knowing that you need only this one card to gain a significant advantage over your opponents is comforting.
Quote from kealsera »
If you locked down the board - what's your wincon? Locking it down even further?
I'm with TK on this one. I absolutely hate Luminarch Ascension. If you cast it unprotected, you're the target of every attack until either the card is destroyed or you're dead. If you need to wait until you have complete control of the board, then I think that is textbook "win-more". Once you have the board locked-down, it doesn't really matter what your win condition is. You can kill them with 10 consecutive attacks from an Aven Mindcensor. It literally doesn't matter at all. Just use the cards that help you reach that board-state on their own, instead of something that serves no other role in the deck.
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
The times I've seen this card be effective it's usually been in two situations:
Early game ( ideally turn two ), on a table full of slow, rampy decks.
Late game on the same turn as a board wipe, or your next turn after if an opponent board wipes.
I don't feel it's the best card for aggro or token strategies, but for taxing / control / pillowfort it has some uses. It's probably more popular than it deserves, but I don't think it's terrible.
TK, I'm happy to see you back. I always love reading your thoughts on mono-white, and definitely prefer your contrarian viewpoints regarding white to most other "parroting" that goes on within the boards.
Love what I'm seeing so far on page-1. I'd recommend adding Linvala, Keeper of Silence to the list of white commanders. In a vacuum, it has pretty much everything I look for in a control commander:
It can come down in the early-mid game. - It drives me completely insane when people talk about their commanders as tools in their control decks, then run a cmc8 creature in that slot. If you're waiting until you have that much mana before you begin instating your control plan, you're definitely behind at that point.
It has an immediate effect on the board/ - Playing your commander, then gaining no benefit from its ability until your next turn is just not good enough (sorry Kemba).
It can actually withstand more than a stiff breeze. - The thing that bothers me more than anything else about my own mono-white commander (Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker) is that it can literally do nothing in a fight. Massacre Wurm is pretty omnipresent. Cards like Magmaquake and Starstorm are a thing. People play and attack with utility creatures in the early game. With a 4-toughness butt on this, you actually stand a chance of using that to decent effect. And it even has flying, giving you more reach as a chump-blocker.
It provides control without any other pieces of an engine to augment its effect. - Control engines and card advantage engines are awesome. But sometimes knowing that you need only this one card to gain a significant advantage over your opponents is comforting.
Thanks Lim Dul, always respected you as a poster, glad to hear the praise. I'll definitely add Linvala when I have time. Her ability is pretty nasty. Main problem I have is that because a lot of generals play similarly, it's hard to write about each one individually. I might just clump a few generals together (ie. put all the Stax generals in one category).
The Problem is, that you can have different states of a locked down board.
You can easily lock em down with say Winter Orb and Ghostly Prision. They won't attack you. Lets assume they got an Avacyn in play at the moment. Hushwin Gryff won't do the job for you - you either need a stax Element (Smokestack) or Spotremoval or just more/bigger guys than them.
That's the position for Luminarch Ascension.
My point is: It's not always bad, in some situations it will shine and you need to be very careful when to play it.
Well yes, that's what I was trying to clarify. I'm not saying Luminarch is unplayable, just that it's not that good in a lot of decks. I'm arguing that, for it to be playable in your deck, you need to overcome the fact that it does nothing for a full turn (At best), all the tokens do is attack or block, and it can't help you if you're already losing.
If I were building Stax and was in desperate need of a wincon, I still wouldn't use it; at best, you have to wait a full turn after you play it to activate, another full turn to create tokens, and assuming you have 10 open mana, you can start swinging on the third turn for 20 damage. Killing one player at full health will essentially take 4 turns; killing more may be faster due to more production of tokens, or it could be slower since it gives them more time to answer it.
It's playable, but I still think there are better cards in that slot.
Which card would you run for a total of 10 Mana on two turn cycles? Be aware though, that it should at least kill one guy the second turn - that's your own requirement on the Ascension.
And don't forget, you are under the effect of Winter Orb/Stasis Orb [..] as well. Something like a Blightsteel Col. would do the job, but you are very unlikely to have the spare mana for something like that.
...what are your more prefered wincons at this point in the game?
Well, actually, that was a requirement for Ascension because its only role that you gave for it was a finisher, which is what we are trying to avoid. Personally, I'd prefer a finisher to cost less than 12 mana and four turns to kill someone (Best case scenario). Once you have the game on lockdown, having a finisher is really a formality anyway. The days of having a card do the job as a traditional finisher are long past. BTW, if you're under WOrb lock, you can't really pump out angel tokens either...
I'll still answer your question though. Here are a few really good ways to finish a game as a Stax deck:
Mirror Entity - Kills multiple players with mana investment and board position in a single turn, but also acts as a combo piece and a sac outlet.
That's really besides the point though. My whole point is that Luminarch does not fit in every white deck and in fact, is pretty bad in certain decks. Are there certain times in certain builds that Luminarch can be good? Sure. Are there usually better options? Definitely. The fact that it's just a pure beater means it lacks versatility in what that it can provide, which is exactly what we want to try to avoid.
I love mono black. Mono white is my deck's natural enemy, and when faced in duels, makes for fun game play. The most fun I ever had in commander was actually when I first started and my friend who showed me commander back in late 2007 built a Gaddock Teeg. We never played sideboard color hosers, but he had cards with pro-black and I had cards with pro-white and those cards would cause all kinds of fun interaction problems for one another. I think it is good for the game when people can play mono colored decks and do well with them.
That being said, Iona, Shield of Emeria is B.S. and despite some of the outs, it pretty much single handedly locks a mono colored deck out of the game. I don't play Contamination or Infernal Darkness. If you want it to stay that way, don't play Iona. Deal?
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I love mono black. Mono whiteis my deck's natural enemy, and when faced in duels, makes for fun game play. The most fun I ever had in comander was actually when I first started and my friend who showed me commander back in late 2007 built a Gaddock Teeg. We never played sideboard color hosers, but he had cards with pro-black and I had cards with pro-white and those cards would cause all kinds of fun interaction problems for one another. I think it is good for the game when people can play mono colored decks and do well with them.
That being said, Iona, Shield of Emeria is B.S. and despite some of the outs, it pretty much single handedly locks a mono colored deck out of the game. I don't play Contamination or Infernal Darkness. If you want it to stay that way, don't play Iona. Deal?
Reminds me of the time this guy was bragging about his Skittles deck as being unbeatable. So I pulled out my Saffi deck, comboed him out the first game, then second and third game I Yosei locked him. He showed me Contamination and Reassembling Skeleton in his hand... He was so pissed that I locked him out before he got his Contamination lock.
Made some significant updates to the primer. Clarified the CA section and added a section on recursion. More to come, though very slowly...
Reminds me of the time this guy was bragging about his Skittles deck as being unbeatable. So I pulled out my Saffi deck, comboed him out the first game, then second and third game I Yosei locked him. He showed me Contamination and Reassembling Skeleton in his hand... He was so pissed that I locked him out before he got his Contamination lock.
Made some significant updates to the primer. Clarified the CA section and added a section on recursion. More to come, though very slowly...
Ha! If someone starts bragging about their unbeatable deck, I would do the same My whole point was, I can do crazy unfair and unfun things to you too. I actually own rare and powerful tutors like Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, Grim Tutor, and Demonic Tutor in addition to the other less broken ones. I also have a lot of vintage mana rocks as well. Getting Contamination out turn one-two-or three isn't unheard of if I really want to. At least white can float man in response and cast disenchants, but when black also has a discard package to protect it's things, like gets more complicated. In a duel, I welcome the back and forth nature, but within the realm of fun. Once we start trying to lock each other out, the fun stops.
I like to forward and link to articles like this to help friends who build mono white. I want them too as those are the most fun decks and interactions to go up against.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Great thread. I learned a lot. One small note. You link to Gauntlet of Might but I think mono white enthusiasts might have better success with Gauntlet of Power .
One thing I would like to see a lot expanded is the advantages of running mono-white compared to white + something else, especially given that mono-white's general selection is so weak. A lot of good decks are mono blue, green and black not because there are just so many good monocolored cards that adding another color wouldn't improve the deck, but because the pilot decided they wanted a ridiculously powerful card in the command zone, with the tradeoff of being stuck with monocolor thanks to the color identity rule. Seems hardly surprising that the "three best EDH colors" each have at least one monocolor general on the ban list -- these for the most part being cheap generals that can lock out the opponent's ability to cast spells the color has a hard time answering, or just kill them.
You briefly mention Emeria and mana doublers, but given that a lot of white decks lean heavily on LD/Stax I don't find that a particularly persuasive argument. Land Tax can also be run in a multicolor build assuming you're willing to run a decent number of basic lands (and in certain color combinations like R/W, it's not like you have a particularly impressive amount of nonbasics to choose from in the first place).
Great thread. I learned a lot. One small note. You link to Gauntlet of Might but I think mono white enthusiasts might have better success with Gauntlet of Power .
Nice catch, edited.
One thing I would like to see a lot expanded is the advantages of running mono-white compared to white + something else, especially given that mono-white's general selection is so weak. A lot of good decks are mono blue, green and black not because there are just so many good monocolored cards that adding another color wouldn't improve the deck, but because the pilot decided they wanted a ridiculously powerful card in the command zone, with the tradeoff of being stuck with monocolor thanks to the color identity rule. Seems hardly surprising that the "three best EDH colors" each have at least one monocolor general on the ban list -- these for the most part being cheap generals that can lock out the opponent's ability to cast spells the color has a hard time answering, or just kill them.
You briefly mention Emeria and mana doublers, but given that a lot of white decks lean heavily on LD/Stax I don't find that a particularly persuasive argument. Land Tax can also be run in a multicolor build assuming you're willing to run a decent number of basic lands (and in certain color combinations like R/W, it's not like you have a particularly impressive amount of nonbasics to choose from in the first place).
That's because that's basically it unfortunately. Every set I keep hoping for a well costed mono-white legend that takes full advantage of white's biggest strengths in commander, and every set we just get another white weenie/token legend. I do list a few strong mono-white commanders though, but none of them are strong enough that it gives the player significant incentive to play mono-color over a similar multi-color general.
That's not to say mono-white isn't worth playing though. My point is, white in general has access to very powerful recursion and blink abilities, and by going mono-white, you have access to one of the strongest recursion engines in the game and the mana that you wouldn't otherwise have. Besides that, there is still the reason to go for a certain general that happens to be in mono-white - Hokori, Dust Drinker for example produces a good Stax effect that you couldn't get elsewhere as a commander.
I did update that section though, hopefully it's a little clearer.
Hokori, Dust Drinker for example produces a good Stax effect that you couldn't get elsewhere as a commander.
Ehh, I dunno, my friend doesn't really play her Captain Sisay deck anymore because of how frequent the Hokori lockouts were getting. I see your point though.
My favorite color is actually white, but I've never really been drawn to any mono-white legends, except for Reya Dawnbringer. Sadly she's far too inefficient these days.
They're real handy for preventing commander damage. Oh forgot Righteous Aura, probably the best one.
Maybe a section on general tucking. Condemn, Hallowed Burial, Terminus, Oblation
This is a huge trap that people get into when they look at Ascendant. Yes, it'll give you a 12 point swing every turn - but what impact will this have over an entire game? It's often said that the only point of damage that matters is the last one. Ascendant is a prime example of this principle. The biggest problem with it is that it can only do its most serious damage early game, when life totals matter the least. Players can adjust knowing they only have 20 life to work with, or if you have 60 life from a few swings. This means Ascendant will rarely if ever do enough damage to finish a player off - 40 life is too much to wittle down, and once players have settled in, Ascendant is no longer a force.
And this is not even taking into account how bad Ascendant is past turn one - as the game goes on, the worse Ascendant gets. How often will you have Ascendant turn one? Maybe 1 out of 10 games. If a card is good in 10% of your games, and its impact is still questionable, would you play it? This is where Ascendant lies. Not to mention how big of a target he is due to early threat-ism.
Made a few updates to the primer. Just a disclaimer - as I stated in my primer, there will be a lot of common white staples that I will question, and a lot of obscure white cards that are actually really good. Please be mindful of that.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
It may be true that only the last point of damage matters, but if one creature you spent one mana on on turn one did the first 30...I'd say it pulled it's weight.
There could maybe even be a section on how to hate out strategies? white seems to have so many cards that can hose specific strategies, but perhaps it's just my imagination
Not exactly sure what you're saying. I've listed Stax as one of white's strengths. If you're saying Luminarch is good when you've already locked down the board, then that is the definition of a win-more card.
I love his deck and it gave me the inspiration to build Heliod myself.
I like life gain as a sub strategy in mono-white. There are a lot of cards that give incidental life gain (such as Mastery of the Unseen, Archangel of Thune or even High Market), which would still allow you to use Well or Book of Rass.
As a dedicated strategy, I'm not sure how strong it can be without black though, but I could be wrong.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
I think this guy is making a good point that the OP is refusing to listen to. You have to have some way to win, and this is a solid card in a dedicated stax list. Great late game finisher, even better than Entreat the Angels since it doesn't die to a wipe.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Sure, it can be a decent wincon for stax. Okay, I'll clarify it (And Ascendant). They aren't "bad" cards, they just aren't necessarily autoincludes. The main point I'm trying to make with them is so that people don't think they are better than they actually are - undercosted beaters whose impact lessens significantly in EDH.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
I'm of the opinion you should only run lifegain cards that also have a second function that synergizes with your game plan.
For example, I run Archangel of Thune in my Gahiji deck, because at the very least, she alone is decent at boosting armies. Now that I'm running her, though, it's tempting to run other sources of lifegain. But I should only really consider lifegain cards that are still valuable in a token horde deck regardless of whether she's on the board, for example Soul Warden, Balefire Liege or Elspeth Tirel.
Lifegain for the sake of lifegain simply isn't worth it in a powerful multiplayer format. My meta is maybe a 7 on the power scale and our Rafiq player or Gisela player or Narset player or Bruna player can carve through dozens of HP in two or three turns without too much contrivance.
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
Seems to me that a commander like Heliod, God of the Sun serves as an engine for both stax targets and win condition.
Best of luck.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Nothing like getting Burnished Hart equipped with Skullclamp and bringing it back every turn with Sun Titan.
Also added a card advantage and ramp section, though they are still far from complete.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Love what I'm seeing so far on page-1. I'd recommend adding Linvala, Keeper of Silence to the list of white commanders. In a vacuum, it has pretty much everything I look for in a control commander:
I'm with TK on this one. I absolutely hate Luminarch Ascension. If you cast it unprotected, you're the target of every attack until either the card is destroyed or you're dead. If you need to wait until you have complete control of the board, then I think that is textbook "win-more". Once you have the board locked-down, it doesn't really matter what your win condition is. You can kill them with 10 consecutive attacks from an Aven Mindcensor. It literally doesn't matter at all. Just use the cards that help you reach that board-state on their own, instead of something that serves no other role in the deck.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
Just my two cents from the games I've seen Luminarch Ascension go online.
The times I've seen this card be effective it's usually been in two situations:
Early game ( ideally turn two ), on a table full of slow, rampy decks.
Late game on the same turn as a board wipe, or your next turn after if an opponent board wipes.
I don't feel it's the best card for aggro or token strategies, but for taxing / control / pillowfort it has some uses. It's probably more popular than it deserves, but I don't think it's terrible.
( This versus Sacred Mesa. Discuss. )
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Thanks Lim Dul, always respected you as a poster, glad to hear the praise. I'll definitely add Linvala when I have time. Her ability is pretty nasty. Main problem I have is that because a lot of generals play similarly, it's hard to write about each one individually. I might just clump a few generals together (ie. put all the Stax generals in one category).
Well yes, that's what I was trying to clarify. I'm not saying Luminarch is unplayable, just that it's not that good in a lot of decks. I'm arguing that, for it to be playable in your deck, you need to overcome the fact that it does nothing for a full turn (At best), all the tokens do is attack or block, and it can't help you if you're already losing.
If I were building Stax and was in desperate need of a wincon, I still wouldn't use it; at best, you have to wait a full turn after you play it to activate, another full turn to create tokens, and assuming you have 10 open mana, you can start swinging on the third turn for 20 damage. Killing one player at full health will essentially take 4 turns; killing more may be faster due to more production of tokens, or it could be slower since it gives them more time to answer it.
It's playable, but I still think there are better cards in that slot.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Well, actually, that was a requirement for Ascension because its only role that you gave for it was a finisher, which is what we are trying to avoid. Personally, I'd prefer a finisher to cost less than 12 mana and four turns to kill someone (Best case scenario). Once you have the game on lockdown, having a finisher is really a formality anyway. The days of having a card do the job as a traditional finisher are long past. BTW, if you're under WOrb lock, you can't really pump out angel tokens either...
I'll still answer your question though. Here are a few really good ways to finish a game as a Stax deck:
Mirror Entity - Kills multiple players with mana investment and board position in a single turn, but also acts as a combo piece and a sac outlet.
Reveillark/Karmic Guide/Sun Titan combo - Wins in one turn, requires a combo but all the combo pieces are good on their own.
Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience - Kills one player a turn. Helm is kinda useless on its own but RIP hoses graveyard strategies hardcore.
Felidar Sovereign - Wins on upkeep. Really easy to trigger.
That's really besides the point though. My whole point is that Luminarch does not fit in every white deck and in fact, is pretty bad in certain decks. Are there certain times in certain builds that Luminarch can be good? Sure. Are there usually better options? Definitely. The fact that it's just a pure beater means it lacks versatility in what that it can provide, which is exactly what we want to try to avoid.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
That being said, Iona, Shield of Emeria is B.S. and despite some of the outs, it pretty much single handedly locks a mono colored deck out of the game. I don't play Contamination or Infernal Darkness. If you want it to stay that way, don't play Iona. Deal?
Reminds me of the time this guy was bragging about his Skittles deck as being unbeatable. So I pulled out my Saffi deck, comboed him out the first game, then second and third game I Yosei locked him. He showed me Contamination and Reassembling Skeleton in his hand... He was so pissed that I locked him out before he got his Contamination lock.
Made some significant updates to the primer. Clarified the CA section and added a section on recursion. More to come, though very slowly...
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Ha! If someone starts bragging about their unbeatable deck, I would do the same My whole point was, I can do crazy unfair and unfun things to you too. I actually own rare and powerful tutors like Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, Grim Tutor, and Demonic Tutor in addition to the other less broken ones. I also have a lot of vintage mana rocks as well. Getting Contamination out turn one-two-or three isn't unheard of if I really want to. At least white can float man in response and cast disenchants, but when black also has a discard package to protect it's things, like gets more complicated. In a duel, I welcome the back and forth nature, but within the realm of fun. Once we start trying to lock each other out, the fun stops.
I like to forward and link to articles like this to help friends who build mono white. I want them too as those are the most fun decks and interactions to go up against.
You briefly mention Emeria and mana doublers, but given that a lot of white decks lean heavily on LD/Stax I don't find that a particularly persuasive argument. Land Tax can also be run in a multicolor build assuming you're willing to run a decent number of basic lands (and in certain color combinations like R/W, it's not like you have a particularly impressive amount of nonbasics to choose from in the first place).
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
That's because that's basically it unfortunately. Every set I keep hoping for a well costed mono-white legend that takes full advantage of white's biggest strengths in commander, and every set we just get another white weenie/token legend. I do list a few strong mono-white commanders though, but none of them are strong enough that it gives the player significant incentive to play mono-color over a similar multi-color general.
That's not to say mono-white isn't worth playing though. My point is, white in general has access to very powerful recursion and blink abilities, and by going mono-white, you have access to one of the strongest recursion engines in the game and the mana that you wouldn't otherwise have. Besides that, there is still the reason to go for a certain general that happens to be in mono-white - Hokori, Dust Drinker for example produces a good Stax effect that you couldn't get elsewhere as a commander.
I did update that section though, hopefully it's a little clearer.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Ehh, I dunno, my friend doesn't really play her Captain Sisay deck anymore because of how frequent the Hokori lockouts were getting. I see your point though.
My favorite color is actually white, but I've never really been drawn to any mono-white legends, except for Reya Dawnbringer. Sadly she's far too inefficient these days.
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!