MTG Salvation

I'm expecting this Formidable mechanic to make a few splashes in Maelstrom Wanderer. Shaman of Forgotten Ways is somewhere in between Somberwald Sage and Smokebraider, with a better body and a potentially relevant Formidable ability. I don't think 11 mana will be much of a hurdle, I just don't know if its worth a spot in the deck....

Anybody have any thoughts about this card? My first thought is that it gives green a way to deal with infinite life (without dealing infinite damage).

It seems dangerous to activate though. If I have 4 or 5 creatures in play, I could go to such a dangerous life total. What I could do though is attack. If my opponents chump block, I activate post-combat to kill them. If they don't block, I activate it before damage to kill them during combat damage.

This seems pretty decent, actually. Definitely a better topdeck than any other mana ramp.

Biorhythm is banned. So I duno if this dude will get axed.

*Edit* Spoiler tags are useful for this sort of thing.

It would still require a TON of mana. You might want to be playing with flash perhaps as flashing Wanderer at the end of turn would mean you would reload your mana faster. Even with wanderer giving haste its unlikely you would have the mana required to activate the shaman in that setup.

Quote from Togepi »

Biorhythm is banned. So I duno if this dude will get axed.

The power difference between the two is so massive that I can't see this getting played, let alone banned. People will run this because it taps for 2 mana and not because of the 11 mana conditional win condition.

Quote from Galspanic »

The power difference between the two is so massive that I can't see this getting played, let alone banned. People will run this because it taps for 2 mana and not because of the 11 mana conditional win condition.

I agree that the point of the card is likely going to be more about the two mana it provides while being a cheap dork. I wouldn't say that the 11 mana ability wont be played but the reason to run this card is not for that ability I suspect as if you are trying to just end games / win there are far easier ways of doing it.

That said, I wouldn't rule out the idea of using the 11 mana ability. But the reason to run the card would be primarily as a ramp creature.

It's OK ramp that might occasionally kill someone while putting the rest of the table within reach. I say it's worth testing out a bit. That being said I can see more situations when I want Triumph of the Hordes than an 11 mana biorhythm.

Quote from Life1ess »

It's OK ramp that might occasionally kill someone while putting the rest of the table within reach. I say it's worth testing out a bit. That being said I can see more situations when I want Triumph of the Hordes than an 11 mana biorhythm.

Awkward moment when you cascade into Triumph of the Hordes and give +1/+1 and infect to your Smokebraider.

Shaman is just another card that can help cast MW on turn 3 or 4, and be activated the following turn if I cascade into Gilded Lotus, Garruk Wildspeaker or Teferi, Temporal Archmage. If my opponents need to prioritize killing my mana dork, then I'm doing something right.

I don't think it will be banned. Infinite mana decks have better options, and most mono-green decks don't have haste enablers. I get the impression that this will only be threatening in a handful of decks.

I agree with Galspanic and ISBPathfinder; this card will primarily be used solely for the ramp/fixing. The Biorhythm effect is just a bonus that will on rare occasions get a free win. And as for bannings: just because there is a broken version that is banned, doesn't mean that the weaker, fixed version will get banned. See Balance vs. Balancing Act, or Survival of the Fittest vs. Fauna Shaman in Legacy. I would be very surprised if this card was banned.

I wouldn't get too comfortable brewing with this. While yes, the cost of the ability is pretty ridiculous, it is still basically biorhythm on a body, and being in green it isn't like it is a difficult thing to get a board presence with the mana required to get it off. I could easily see this getting the axe in the next update, just as Griselbrand and Worldfire did before it.

It immediately reminds me of Fauna Shaman in that I will almost always play Survival but I'll rarely play shaman. It's going to find a place in some lists because it's a strong effect, but I don't see it being banned since it requires significant setup compared to biorhythm.

Then again the banned list is terribly inconsistent so who knows.

It is Green. The Rules Committee doesn't like Green things. I think the problem with Biorhythm is that only blue can do something about it.

All colors can deal with a 2/3. So, outside of having 14 mana and a haste enabler, I don't see this being a problem. And that's a pretty big hurdle.

Also why I think MW is the natural fit. It needs the ramp, and it can definitely pull this off late game. I have cast MW for 14 many times.

Biorhythm also has the accidental combo thing going against it. Someone wraths, next person drops a dude and plays Biorhythm, that's game. The only way that happens with this card is if the person running it has a remarkably wrath-resistant board, some way to give it haste, and 14 mana (or some other confluence of factors like that). It's not like anyone is going to wrath against a board with this guy, Dauntless Escort, and 6 more power. Any boardstate where Shaman instant wins was likely already a winning board. There's an enormous difference between Shaman and Biorhythm.

I'll be running it as a mana dork because investing three mana into two future mana is worthwhile. If I can occasionally Biorhythm into a table kill, that's a bonus that I don't foresee happening often.

Not impressed with it in Maelstrom Wanderer, but it has a pretty good shot at making an impact in Karador, Ghost Chieftain. Access to easy recursion, lots of bodies, capability to use the creature-only ramp, and a grindy win condition. Because Karador needed another one of those, right?

Quote from Fenrir Rex »

Not impressed with it in Maelstrom Wanderer, but it has a pretty good shot at making an impact in Karador, Ghost Chieftain. Access to easy recursion, lots of bodies, capability to use the creature-only ramp, and a grindy win condition. Because Karador needed another one of those, right?

I play Karador, and I thought about it, but I don't see him being better than any card in the deck. I would definitely prefer having Wood Elves for ramp. I can definitely keep my opponents from having creatures in play with Merciless Executioner and Fleshbag Marauder and Grave Pact effects... But then this is just a win-more card. I'm usually winning those matches anyway.

Maybe it would work better in some builds.... but not mine, I think.

Definitely will make a splash in Derevi, where dorks that tap for 2 are good in general and it's a combat deck to boot, and Momir Vig, where wincons are sorely needed without interrupting the flow of the deck.

Quote from Weebo »

Biorhythm also has the accidental combo thing going against it. Someone wraths, next person drops a dude and plays Biorhythm, that's game. The only way that happens with this card is if the person running it has a remarkably wrath-resistant board, some way to give it haste, and 14 mana (or some other confluence of factors like that). It's not like anyone is going to wrath against a board with this guy, Dauntless Escort, and 6 more power. Any boardstate where Shaman instant wins was likely already a winning board. There's an enormous difference between Shaman and Biorhythm.

I'll be running it as a mana dork because investing three mana into two future mana is worthwhile. If I can occasionally Biorhythm into a table kill, that's a bonus that I don't foresee happening often.

My Saffi deck can do that very very easily. Given the right, and fairly common, board state I can become pretty wrath-proof and have a boatload of mana, and I can do that all at instant speed.

Example:
Saffi
Sun Titan
Shaman

On your turn you cast Damnation or Wrath or what have you. I sacrifice Saffi and target Sun Titan. Your wrath resolves, Sun Titan and Shaman die. Sun Titan is returned to the battlefield, and I go ahead and grab the Shaman. You end your turn.

On my turn I activate the shaman and win the game.

And that isn't even close to as broken a board state as I can make to do it, that is BARE minimum.

Quote from NGW »

My Saffi deck can do that very very easily. Given the right, and fairly common, board state I can become pretty wrath-proof and have a boatload of mana, and I can do that all at instant speed.

Example:
Saffi
Sun Titan
Shaman

On your turn you cast Damnation or Wrath or what have you. I sacrifice Saffi and target Sun Titan. Your wrath resolves, Sun Titan and Shaman die. Sun Titan is returned to the battlefield, and I go ahead and grab the Shaman. You end your turn.

On my turn I activate the shaman and win the game.

And that isn't even close to as broken a board state as I can make to do it, that is BARE minimum.

I've spent plenty of time in games against a tuned Saffi list. That was the list I had in mind making my example. If she's not disrupted, there are plenty of things you can do with 11 mana that win the game. That's also a textbook example of a board state where someone shouldn't wrath - all of the pieces are visible and it's a clear win if you're sitting on enough mana to activate it. Saffi + Sun Titan also wins with Altar of Dementia or Blasting Station, draws the deck with Greater Good, and gets infinite mana with Ashnod's Altar/Phyrexian Altar, all without requiring a wrath and for significantly less mana, and we're not calling for bans on those because of it. There are going to be decks that well suited to take advantage of the formidable ability. That doesn't mean the card is banworthy.

I'm not worried about what tuned combo lists can do with cards. The RC has already indicated many times that that's not what they base decisions on. I'm more interested on whether a novice player can throw the mythic they pulled into a list and accidentally end a game on the spot and that seems unlikely in this case. It's definitely less likely than it is with Biorhythm.

This card will not be banned. The simple fact that you can't cheat the wincon and that it costs like a bazilion mana to activate, will make this a fringe card at best.

I also think that it can be a useful mana creature in lists with many colored costs and then the ability is just really a bonus. As a win condition to focus on it is really awful, just compare it to Tooth and Nail or Survival of the Fittest which can both be one card combos for a lot less work. Also compare it to something like Felidar Sovereign which is also not ban worthy and easier to set up.

Quote from Biofeedback »

This card will not be banned. The simple fact that you can't cheat the wincon and that it costs like a bazilion mana to activate, will make this a fringe card at best.

It costs 11 mana. In green. That's really really not hard to get.

I think the thing that will keep it from being banned is all the ways to remove it and all the things you have to do to make it work

Yeah, but for that kind of mana there are much easier and safer ways of winning.

Quote from BlackVise »

I seriously doubt that it's going to be banned though - being a creature which needs to tap to activate makes it miles less broken than Biorhythm in my opinion.

I belive papa_funk's response was something along the lines of "It's decent and we'll keep an eye on it, but it seems fine".

This is the post in referencing, and there's another response from him below it as well.

I am going to try running this in my Omnath, Locus of Mana deck. I always build up a ton of mana with him, then all I need is Yeva, Nature's Herald so I can flash in her and the shaman at the end of my opponents turn and activate him on my turn. With all the creature tutors in green, getting two creatures won't be a problem and it might just take out a control player or two, assuming I can catch them tapped out with no creatures out.

Quote from capitacom »

Also compare it to something like Felidar Sovereign which is also not ban worthy and easier to set up.

This. If Sovereign isn't banned, then I don't understand why a harder to set up and easier to disrupt insta win would be banned.

Unless you find the ferocious ability particularly relevant (I don't), is this card much better than a Cultivate?