There have been enough threads and discussions in the Ban List thread about color identity and the mana production rule that the staff feel it is time to make an official thread. This thread will only be used for discussing these topics. Remember, everyone has their own opinions on this subject, and even if you don't agree with them, it doesn't make the poster wrong or stupid. Attack the idea, not the person. And please, keep things civil.
To kick this off, I've compiled a few quotes and links that have come up recently. If there are other informative links from the RC or Wizards employees which explain a stance or offer an opinion, let me know and I'll add them to this list.
We like the hybrids not being playable. The flavor of Commander is that your general won't put up with those inferior colors of mana and wants nothing to do with them. It's aesthetically displeasing to see those off-color symbols in your deck.
We've poked at rules for stuff like keeping off-color fetches out, but that's not worth the mess.
The rule prior to CI was basically "You can't have cards in your deck with mana symbols that aren't in your general's colors". It was close, but when the time came to CR-ize the rules, that one had some problems - you're arbitrarily mixing and matching between mana symbols and colors, you had the Memnarch problem because the commander cared only about casting cost while cards in the deck cared about more, and the edges are messy when it came to CDAs as well (Kobolds were legal in all decks at that point, which was obviously undesirable, but that got fixed with color identifiers).
What we really wanted was the idea that you couldn't have the other colors in your deck, but taking a wider approach than just 'color of card', since we wanted to count mana symbols in the text, as well. Wizards' contribution was twofold.
1) Formalizing a term that meant "color+" where it looked holistically at the card to figure out all the color affiliations it had.
2) Pointing out that once we had the term defined, we could simply match commander color identity with the rest of the deck, which simplified the rule and made Memnarch and friends legal.
Note that this had zero impact on how hybrid was handled. Hybrid has been ruled the same way in Commander since the day Ravnica was spoiled, and there was no effort to change this during the rules formalization.
Narrow and soft answers. There's no true way to get rid of RN except for Duress effects or hard counters.
I think it's time for the RC to consider the hybrid rule. I still find the rule poor. Hybrid should do as intended.
Before any future posts come up with "you can house rule it", I think that's ignoring the issue and backsliding. Like fast mana, this problem is gonna crop up again and again as more hybrid cards are printed.
House rules don't work the way anyone really thinks. It's not a good solution at all.
This argument makes no sense at all. Hybrid works exactly as it is intended. Boros Reckoner is a white and red creature that can be cast and activated using either white or red mana. Where's the problem?
Well if you make the CI only look at the casting cost of the card, you're back to the problem of Memnarch and Bosh (as a couple of examples) being illegal commanders.
The other big thing this change would solve is my personal pet peeve with the format. Hybrid cards have both mana symbols on them, meaning that you can't play a hybrid card unless you are playing both of its colors. This annoys me, as the entire point of hybrid cards was that they represented an "or" state rather than an "and" state. A mono-white deck in another format can play the card Mirrorweave. Why, then, can't a white commander?
I don't see why hybrid (as the bigger picture) gets compromised by the cards you mentioned. Color identity is one thing but Hybrid should be argued on its own. It should have its own standing.
I don't see why hybrid (as the bigger picture) gets compromised by the cards you mentioned. Color identity is one thing but Hybrid should be argued on its own. It should have its own standing.
I'll be frank. I don't give a crap about what he thinks about this format, because he doesn't play it, and he doesn't care about it (beyond supporting it because players like it and it makes WotC money). Beyond that, he's either misrepresenting his stance, or flat out wrong. Sure, a 60 card monowhite deck can play Mirrorweave, but it still gets countered when a player responds to its casting with Pyroblast. Why isn't he similarly annoyed that I can't play Birthing Pod in that same monowhite deck, even though I could in a 60 card deck?
I don't see why hybrid (as the bigger picture) gets compromised by the cards you mentioned. Color identity is one thing but Hybrid should be argued on its own. It should have its own standing.
Hey, I'm annoyed that my Crypt Ghast FEELS like a White card because it has that hideous half-white symbol on it. I would actually play the Extort cards far more frequently if the triggered ability required 1 (or 1 mana of the card's color). I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, I'm just saying that for every person out there like you there's probably someone like me who's disgusted at the fact that his (legally) mono-Black card doesn't necessarily feel like one and would rather suffer a painful death than play something like Divinity of Pride (random example) in his decks. That is, don't be too surprised if others don't share your point of view. Color identity means way more than it probably should to people like us :3.
For what it's worth I absolute despise the Hybrid mechanic and how it's been implemented thusfar.
I think it should be simple: "If a deck in these colors can use it, its fair game." Fit that in, and you don't need to worry about Memnarch (Only a blue deck can use him and activate his abilities), and then hybrid cards can go into the decks that can run them. Yasova Dragonclaw could go in Gruul for example, just as how she can helm a Gruul deck, but she could not go into mono-green, as mono-green has no way to pay her activation cost. Divinity of Pride could go into mono-white and mono-black.
Furthermore, Hybrid and Phyrexian Mana are NOT the same thing, so please stop dragging Phyrexian Mana into the Hybrid discussion.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I don't see why hybrid (as the bigger picture) gets compromised by the cards you mentioned. Color identity is one thing but Hybrid should be argued on its own. It should have its own standing.
Hey, I'm annoyed that my Crypt Ghast FEELS like a White card because it has that hideous half-white symbol on it. I would actually play the Extort cards far more frequently if the triggered ability required 1 (or 1 mana of the card's color). I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, I'm just saying that for every person out there like you there's probably someone like me who's disgusted at the fact that his (legally) mono-Black card doesn't necessarily feel like one and would rather suffer a painful death than play something like Divinity of Pride (random example) in his decks. That is, don't be too surprised if others don't share your point of view. Color identity means way more than it probably should to people like us :3.
For what it's worth I absolute despise the Hybrid mechanic and how it's been implemented thusfar.
The hybrid symbol in Crypt Ghast is in the reminder text. Divinity of pride is a legit white/black creature, and thus not legal in a mono black deck. For crypt ghast, onsidering it is just in the reminder text, it does not effect the card's legality in mono black. Much like Blind Obedience in mono white.
So your divinity of pride example really doesn't prove anything.
I don't see why hybrid (as the bigger picture) gets compromised by the cards you mentioned. Color identity is one thing but Hybrid should be argued on its own. It should have its own standing.
Hey, I'm annoyed that my Crypt Ghast FEELS like a White card because it has that hideous half-white symbol on it. I would actually play the Extort cards far more frequently if the triggered ability required 1 (or 1 mana of the card's color). I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, I'm just saying that for every person out there like you there's probably someone like me who's disgusted at the fact that his (legally) mono-Black card doesn't necessarily feel like one and would rather suffer a painful death than play something like Divinity of Pride (random example) in his decks. That is, don't be too surprised if others don't share your point of view. Color identity means way more than it probably should to people like us :3.
For what it's worth I absolute despise the Hybrid mechanic and how it's been implemented thusfar.
The hybrid symbol in Crypt Ghast is in the reminder text. Divinity of pride is a legit white/black creature, and thus not legal in a mono black deck. For crypt ghast, onsidering it is just in the reminder text, it does not effect the card's legality in mono black. Much like Blind Obedience in mono white.
So your divinity of pride example really doesn't prove anything.
I wasn't making an example. You missed the point on my post entirely. I don't care where the symbol on the card is because the fact of the matter is that my mono-Black card has a partial white mana blip on it and even that bothers me. I know that it's a still a mono-Black card. Doesn't matter. I find no solace fact that it's on the reminder text and not in the mana cost. I still have to stare at that ugly white mana symbol in my mono-Black deck. Color identity means something to me. You can't tell me that Divinity of Pride is a mono-black card that can be run in mono-black decks. It isn't. It's a White card. I can see the White symbols on it. You can't tell me that it doesn't matter because it does. It matters to me that my Black decks have Black cards in them. If you don't care, good on you. Just don't act like your point of view is inherently correct. Not all of us want to call Boros cards like Boros Reckoner a mono-Red card that Jayad Ballard can play.
My point is that for everyone who says "it doesn't matter, just let us run Hybrids in our decks" there are also going to be people like me who think "it does matter." I would never want to play Divinity of Pride in my Iname, Death Aspect deck even if I were allowed to because it has all of those hideous white symbols on it. Why would I want White cards in my mono-Black deck? That's all that I'm trying to say. If the only argument "for" running hybrid cards in decks that don't match their colors entirely is "why not?" then an equally compelling argument against fielding them is "why?" Why would we just magically treat these multicolored spells like monocolored ones or whatever?
For what it's worth I absolute despise the Hybrid mechanic and how it's been implemented thusfar.
There's nothing wrong with the mechanic, and I don't think the uproar over it came until MaRo's C11 article where he got on his soap box and hijacked the article to talk about his dislike for the CI rule and hybrid mana. IF it wasn't for him constantly talking about design intent (which have NO place in the rules, Commander or Comprehensive), we wouldn't constantly have this debate.
Furthermore, Hybrid and Phyrexian Mana are NOT the same thing, so please stop dragging Phyrexian Mana into the Hybrid discussion.
Except it is absolutely related and a direct parallel comparison. Boros Reckoner and Birthing Pod are functionally the same. They both have very clear colors from a rules stance and color identity stance. The design intent for each was with an OR state in mind (keep in mind that the comprehensive rules don't give a crap about design intent). If you would like to use a less straightforward example, we have the new khans, such as Shaman of the Great Hunt. How is playing that card in a Jhoira deck any different than me wanting to play Blinding Souleater in a Karn deck?
@Prid3: I think it's an interesting point that you bring up, but I'd like to use it against you. You say that if it were legal to play hybrid cards in a mono deck that you wouldn't because it wouldn't "feel right" to you, and I respect that idea very much! But, as you stated, not everyone feels that way, and others likely WOULD include those cards if they were legal. I believe the argument here, now, is not so much about what is legal, but why is it or is it not legal? If we are to question Color Identity at its very root, then perhaps we might see want or need to change its definition. After all, you are able to play the cards you'd like legally, so why shouldn't some others? (While barring obvious restrictions, of course.) I just think it is an idea that might deserve some thought and debate about... What SHOULD color identity mean/be?
Hybrid mana is totally fine since it gives you less cards to work with, hence increases creativity to fill you deck with 99 cards that do what you want. I would love to play Kitchen Finks in my Shattergang Stax, but then again, I don't really need it. If someone is not satisfied with how things are, then you can either discuss this matter with the people you play with or play always a 5-colored deck or just play Highlander. Personally I love having to restrict myself. Because of this and flavour reasons I also don't play fetchlands outside of my color.
The other big thing this change would solve is my personal pet peeve with the format. Hybrid cards have both mana symbols on them, meaning that you can't play a hybrid card unless you are playing both of its colors. This annoys me, as the entire point of hybrid cards was that they represented an "or" state rather than an "and" state. A mono-white deck in another format can play the card Mirrorweave. Why, then, can't a white commander?
I don't see why hybrid (as the bigger picture) gets compromised by the cards you mentioned. Color identity is one thing but Hybrid should be argued on its own. It should have its own standing.
Never quote MaRo on Commander. The man only cares about the format inasmuch as his bosses force him to because it makes Wizards money, and he only plays the format inasmuch as he assists in testing the precons. That's it.
Hell, the man doesn't even like multiplayer with regular decks. Why would he like a format specifically designed for multiplayer?
I've read Maros arguments for allowing hybrid CI before. He argues that hybrid mana is treated as an B OR U in design so that theoretically the only hybrid cards that will be print in theory are cards that could be perfectly fair as UUU or BBB. When you take it as just that, it seems perfectly reasonable.
My problem with Maros argument is that is going off into theory land and staying there. He is only seeing hybrid as a concept from 10,000 feet in the air. It adds a lot of nuance to the debate if you look at the ground level perspective us players have.
One problem is that hybrid cards tend to have a lot of color bleed, because while the theory is that it can only be printed if it is doable in both colors, the actual paper cards often contradict this and they tend to lean heavily in one direction or the other, which makes them very close to gold cards in my opinion. Fossil Find leans very green, it's just a Regrowth variant with the word random thrown on to justify being playable with R. Could a monogreen version exist? Probably. Could a monored version exist? Unlikely. Is a card like Nightveil Specter really printable in monoblack? To me, it feels like a monoblue card just given a historically black creature type to justify it self being hybrid. What about a monored Boros Reckoner? Would a color that is famous for it's small creature strategies and blazing all-out offense really get such an efficient creature in monocolor without a drawback? Especially considering that Reckoner is 4 times better as a blocker then he is at attacking.
So the problem with only looking at the theory of Hybrid from 10,000 feet is that the theory doesn't jive with what the actual paper cards being printed and put into booster packs show, they have effects that often lean one direction very heavily and I have serious doubts to an exact reprint in monocolor being possible. I'll concede that there are some cards that this is not the case for. Burning-Tree Emissary feels to me like it would be printable at GG or RR, since green is the mana color and red is the ritual color; but for many hybrid cards, especially those few people most want to be able to play in EDH, are often grievous color pie violations if treated as a monocolored card.
There is no way Debtor's Knell could be printed as a monowhite card, even going by the color pie as it was back in Ravnica. Now, if you disagree with me one thing you can do is go to Maro's blog and request he put an exact reprint of DK into a set, except make it monowhite, see what he says. I could be wrong about DK, but I am pretty sure that it has a crazy amount of color bleed and is in no way printable in white.
The thing about EDH is that if the color already has an in color version of the hybrid effect, you're already playing it because you want that effect, so hybird cards being legal just means you have 2 version of that effect now. For the weaker color in the hybird pair, the color that the card is leaning away from on only touches on a little, you likely don't have an in color version of that effect so it's giving you a whole new effect that you can play in your deck, an effect that likely belongs only in another colors portion of the pie.
I can't support allowing off color hybird cards to be played. In almost all cases it's far too much color bleeding.
@Prid3: I think it's an interesting point that you bring up, but I'd like to use it against you. You say that if it were legal to play hybrid cards in a mono deck that you wouldn't because it wouldn't "feel right" to you, and I respect that idea very much! But, as you stated, not everyone feels that way, and others likely WOULD include those cards if they were legal. I believe the argument here, now, is not so much about what is legal, but why is it or is it not legal? If we are to question Color Identity at its very root, then perhaps we might see want or need to change its definition. After all, you are able to play the cards you'd like legally, so why shouldn't some others? (While barring obvious restrictions, of course.) I just think it is an idea that might deserve some thought and debate about... What SHOULD color identity mean/be?
You didn't turn my point against me. I'm not using evidence to support my claims/arguments. I'm merely stating my personal belief (which, by the way, carries about as weight as a sheet of paper). My belief is that the color identity is fine the way it is "because I said so." That always has and always been my stance. So no, you didn't somehow pull a 180 on me. I'm one person saying that I like color identity the way that it is. That's it. I haven't polled the greater EDH community, I haven't approached the RC, I haven't discussed it with my playgroup, nothing. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything because I don't even have a 1-legged stool to stand on. There's nothing to use against me because I'm not coming to the table with anything. You think that color identity should be revisited. I like it the way it is. The only evidence that either of us is proving is our own personal opinions and those of the half-dozen or so voices in this thread. Again, I want to stress that I'm not trying to argue that "I'm right" or that "you're wrong." The point that I'm trying to make is that everyone here is coming to the table with a big gun but no ammunition. Insofar as the basis for these discussions are just "what the 6 of us personally believe" don't expect the outcome to yield favorable results. If your argument is "I, as an individual, believe that they should change the way in which color identity is treated" don't be surprised when you're met with "I, as an individual, believe that it should remain the same." What I will say is that burden of proof does lie on the side seeking change. Until someone can provide a compelling argument as to why the concept of color identity should be completely revisited don't expect anyone to take the suggestion seriosuly. No offense, but no one cares what you (or I) think. We're just nobodies who have (more-or-less) absolutely no say int he final decision. If everyone could have their way with what EDH looked like the format would be horrendous. Someone on the "pro change" side needs to start providing compelling arguments as to why drastic changes which would negatively affect thousands of EDH players are worthwhile. You can say "but the RC reads these threads" but how many hundreds of proposed changes do you think they've seen over the years? What makes this one special/different? If the best that you can come with is "I want to play Boros Reckoner in my Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker deck then don't expect them to roll out changes that would affect thousands upon thousands of fans.
I think it should be simple: "If a deck in these colors can use it, its fair game." Fit that in, and you don't need to worry about Memnarch (Only a blue deck can use him and activate his abilities), and then hybrid cards can go into the decks that can run them.
Furthermore, Hybrid and Phyrexian Mana are NOT the same thing, so please stop dragging Phyrexian Mana into the Hybrid discussion.
Your "simple" rules would allow all decks to run phyrexian mana cards. I would say that discussing phyrexian mana along with hybrid mana is more than relevant here.
@Prid3: Dang, sorry if what I said or how I said it came across harsh or something lol. And I am not exactly saying that color identity is wrong the way it is or that it is a problem. I am just saying that I think it would be a worthwhile endeavor to examine it, especially because R&D is printing more and more hybrid (and the like) cards. Also, though not everyone would like to put those kinds of cards in a deck, I'm sure many others would like to, and there in lies a bigger issue, in my opinion. I mean, if they were legally playable, the people who didn't want to play those cards could still decide not to, so both sides may be happier. I just think it's an interesting idea entertain, that's all.
I don't see why hybrid (as the bigger picture) gets compromised by the cards you mentioned. Color identity is one thing but Hybrid should be argued on its own. It should have its own standing. Never quote MaRo on Commander. The man only cares about the format inasmuch as his bosses force him to because it makes Wizards money, and he only plays the format inasmuch as he assists in testing the precons. That's it.
Hell, the man doesn't even like multiplayer with regular decks. Why would he like a format specifically designed for multiplayer?
Quoting someone who doesn't play multiplayer, I get that it may be queer. But quoting from someone who designs our game and created the hybrid mechanic is totally relevant.
Of course, it's so simple to dismiss Hybrid cards now. I think we need a little perspective here. What if we've 500+ hybrid cards in the future? I believe this will happen, and one that we shouldn't ignore.
From a design standpoint, Hybrid should totally work in Commander. You can hate/dislike the person, but questioning the basis of hybrid's design is certainly an insult (which he admitted).
I don't see why hybrid (as the bigger picture) gets compromised by the cards you mentioned. Color identity is one thing but Hybrid should be argued on its own. It should have its own standing. Never quote MaRo on Commander. The man only cares about the format inasmuch as his bosses force him to because it makes Wizards money, and he only plays the format inasmuch as he assists in testing the precons. That's it.
Hell, the man doesn't even like multiplayer with regular decks. Why would he like a format specifically designed for multiplayer?
Quoting someone who doesn't play multiplayer, I get that it may be queer. But quoting from someone who designs our game and created the hybrid mechanic is totally relevant.
Of course, it's so simple to dismiss Hybrid cards now. I think we need a little perspective here. What if we've 500+ hybrid cards in the future? I believe this will happen, and one that we shouldn't ignore.
From a design standpoint, Hybrid should totally work in Commander. You can hate/dislike the person, but questioning the basis of hybrid's design is certainly an insult (which he admitted).
I think, hybrid discussion is right in place after the FTF release. There is a LOT of hybrid activating costs and they can surely fit into 2-colored decks. So I think it is worth discussing it. Also, there is possibility, they will print even more such hybrid cards in the future.
CI was discussed before, as Memnarch and others were not legal. Now they are. People were agaisnt it and now they have no problem with it. Same went with PW as generals. I think the format is changing and some rules can be changed or improved..
Those color identity changes were fairly small compared to how big the effect will be on the format if off color hybrids are allowed. Im not saying im opposed to it, or for it... but it would have a huge impact. I would much rather the RC work on getting the ban list in order before something like that happens to the format.
To me. Using Hybrid as it SHOULD be will be like a huge unban. I honestly don't see much impact Hybrid will make, compared to cards like Sol Ring, Prophet, Deadeye, Tooth and Nail.
Those color identity changes were fairly small compared to how big the effect will be on the format if off color hybrids are allowed. Im not saying im opposed to it, or for it... but it would have a huge impact. I would much rather the RC work on getting the ban list in order before something like that happens to the format.
It surely would have an impact. But I don't think the impact would be some big disaster. Imagine now allowing cards with hybrid mana activation cost, not hybrid casting cost. It was mentioned before, would Shaman of the Great Hunt be broken in Xenagos deck? I don't think so. Would it be broken in Izzet deck? Hardly, because Izzet doesn't use a lot of high power creatures. To allow these cards would be the first step in CI changes for hybrid mana.
To me. Using Hybrid as it SHOULD be will be like a huge unban. I honestly don't see much impact Hybrid will make, compared to cards like Sol Ring, Prophet, Deadeye, Tooth and Nail.
I agree. We were discussing it in our PG and we realized, there is very little or virtually no impact that would make the game broken. Its not like if you allow hybrid cards or even mono colored cars with hybrid activating symbols (like recent fate reforged generals) it would completely break the game. I don't think that having Divinity of Pride in my mono-b is more broken than anyone having Prophet of Kruphix in any of his decks. Or having Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest in Izzet storm or in Azorius control is still not as OP or broken as 95% of T&N which regulary end the game...
all in all, its a pretty grey area. CI is a major flavor aspect of the format and what keeps it separate from traditional highlander (along with access to a commander).
I think the impact would be a lot higher than people are assuming. Just UW hybrid alone, I found like 3 cards that would do very disgusting things if my Saffi list had access to them. If the argument is just for off color hybrid activations... if the cards would be low impact, why do do you want them anyway? I am sincerely curious. Is it a 'just because it should be this way' thing?
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To kick this off, I've compiled a few quotes and links that have come up recently. If there are other informative links from the RC or Wizards employees which explain a stance or offer an opinion, let me know and I'll add them to this list.
Thread - Mark Rosewater's Making Magic article about C11 (in which he discusses his dislike for the CI rule as it currently works)
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
This argument makes no sense at all. Hybrid works exactly as it is intended. Boros Reckoner is a white and red creature that can be cast and activated using either white or red mana. Where's the problem?
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I'm playing Jaya Ballard, Task Mage and I want to play Boros Reckoner.
I'm playing Xenagos, God of Revels and I want to play Shaman of the Great Hunt.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Well if you make the CI only look at the casting cost of the card, you're back to the problem of Memnarch and Bosh (as a couple of examples) being illegal commanders.
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http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/148
I don't see why hybrid (as the bigger picture) gets compromised by the cards you mentioned. Color identity is one thing but Hybrid should be argued on its own. It should have its own standing.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I'll be frank. I don't give a crap about what he thinks about this format, because he doesn't play it, and he doesn't care about it (beyond supporting it because players like it and it makes WotC money). Beyond that, he's either misrepresenting his stance, or flat out wrong. Sure, a 60 card monowhite deck can play Mirrorweave, but it still gets countered when a player responds to its casting with Pyroblast. Why isn't he similarly annoyed that I can't play Birthing Pod in that same monowhite deck, even though I could in a 60 card deck?
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His stance is pretty irrelevant when it comes to commander as he doesn't play or care about the format.
Why would they muck up the rules so you can play off-color spells? Why have color identity rules at all?
Hey, I'm annoyed that my Crypt Ghast FEELS like a White card because it has that hideous half-white symbol on it. I would actually play the Extort cards far more frequently if the triggered ability required 1 (or 1 mana of the card's color). I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, I'm just saying that for every person out there like you there's probably someone like me who's disgusted at the fact that his (legally) mono-Black card doesn't necessarily feel like one and would rather suffer a painful death than play something like Divinity of Pride (random example) in his decks. That is, don't be too surprised if others don't share your point of view. Color identity means way more than it probably should to people like us :3.
For what it's worth I absolute despise the Hybrid mechanic and how it's been implemented thusfar.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Furthermore, Hybrid and Phyrexian Mana are NOT the same thing, so please stop dragging Phyrexian Mana into the Hybrid discussion.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
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Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The hybrid symbol in Crypt Ghast is in the reminder text. Divinity of pride is a legit white/black creature, and thus not legal in a mono black deck. For crypt ghast, onsidering it is just in the reminder text, it does not effect the card's legality in mono black. Much like Blind Obedience in mono white.
So your divinity of pride example really doesn't prove anything.
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I wasn't making an example. You missed the point on my post entirely. I don't care where the symbol on the card is because the fact of the matter is that my mono-Black card has a partial white mana blip on it and even that bothers me. I know that it's a still a mono-Black card. Doesn't matter. I find no solace fact that it's on the reminder text and not in the mana cost. I still have to stare at that ugly white mana symbol in my mono-Black deck. Color identity means something to me. You can't tell me that Divinity of Pride is a mono-black card that can be run in mono-black decks. It isn't. It's a White card. I can see the White symbols on it. You can't tell me that it doesn't matter because it does. It matters to me that my Black decks have Black cards in them. If you don't care, good on you. Just don't act like your point of view is inherently correct. Not all of us want to call Boros cards like Boros Reckoner a mono-Red card that Jayad Ballard can play.
My point is that for everyone who says "it doesn't matter, just let us run Hybrids in our decks" there are also going to be people like me who think "it does matter." I would never want to play Divinity of Pride in my Iname, Death Aspect deck even if I were allowed to because it has all of those hideous white symbols on it. Why would I want White cards in my mono-Black deck? That's all that I'm trying to say. If the only argument "for" running hybrid cards in decks that don't match their colors entirely is "why not?" then an equally compelling argument against fielding them is "why?" Why would we just magically treat these multicolored spells like monocolored ones or whatever?
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There's nothing wrong with the mechanic, and I don't think the uproar over it came until MaRo's C11 article where he got on his soap box and hijacked the article to talk about his dislike for the CI rule and hybrid mana. IF it wasn't for him constantly talking about design intent (which have NO place in the rules, Commander or Comprehensive), we wouldn't constantly have this debate.
Except it is absolutely related and a direct parallel comparison. Boros Reckoner and Birthing Pod are functionally the same. They both have very clear colors from a rules stance and color identity stance. The design intent for each was with an OR state in mind (keep in mind that the comprehensive rules don't give a crap about design intent). If you would like to use a less straightforward example, we have the new khans, such as Shaman of the Great Hunt. How is playing that card in a Jhoira deck any different than me wanting to play Blinding Souleater in a Karn deck?
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But not being able to play Shaman of the Great Hunt in Xenagos sucks! That's definitely true.
Hell, the man doesn't even like multiplayer with regular decks. Why would he like a format specifically designed for multiplayer?
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My problem with Maros argument is that is going off into theory land and staying there. He is only seeing hybrid as a concept from 10,000 feet in the air. It adds a lot of nuance to the debate if you look at the ground level perspective us players have.
One problem is that hybrid cards tend to have a lot of color bleed, because while the theory is that it can only be printed if it is doable in both colors, the actual paper cards often contradict this and they tend to lean heavily in one direction or the other, which makes them very close to gold cards in my opinion. Fossil Find leans very green, it's just a Regrowth variant with the word random thrown on to justify being playable with R. Could a monogreen version exist? Probably. Could a monored version exist? Unlikely. Is a card like Nightveil Specter really printable in monoblack? To me, it feels like a monoblue card just given a historically black creature type to justify it self being hybrid. What about a monored Boros Reckoner? Would a color that is famous for it's small creature strategies and blazing all-out offense really get such an efficient creature in monocolor without a drawback? Especially considering that Reckoner is 4 times better as a blocker then he is at attacking.
So the problem with only looking at the theory of Hybrid from 10,000 feet is that the theory doesn't jive with what the actual paper cards being printed and put into booster packs show, they have effects that often lean one direction very heavily and I have serious doubts to an exact reprint in monocolor being possible. I'll concede that there are some cards that this is not the case for. Burning-Tree Emissary feels to me like it would be printable at GG or RR, since green is the mana color and red is the ritual color; but for many hybrid cards, especially those few people most want to be able to play in EDH, are often grievous color pie violations if treated as a monocolored card.
There is no way Debtor's Knell could be printed as a monowhite card, even going by the color pie as it was back in Ravnica. Now, if you disagree with me one thing you can do is go to Maro's blog and request he put an exact reprint of DK into a set, except make it monowhite, see what he says. I could be wrong about DK, but I am pretty sure that it has a crazy amount of color bleed and is in no way printable in white.
The thing about EDH is that if the color already has an in color version of the hybrid effect, you're already playing it because you want that effect, so hybird cards being legal just means you have 2 version of that effect now. For the weaker color in the hybird pair, the color that the card is leaning away from on only touches on a little, you likely don't have an in color version of that effect so it's giving you a whole new effect that you can play in your deck, an effect that likely belongs only in another colors portion of the pie.
I can't support allowing off color hybird cards to be played. In almost all cases it's far too much color bleeding.
You didn't turn my point against me. I'm not using evidence to support my claims/arguments. I'm merely stating my personal belief (which, by the way, carries about as weight as a sheet of paper). My belief is that the color identity is fine the way it is "because I said so." That always has and always been my stance. So no, you didn't somehow pull a 180 on me. I'm one person saying that I like color identity the way that it is. That's it. I haven't polled the greater EDH community, I haven't approached the RC, I haven't discussed it with my playgroup, nothing. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything because I don't even have a 1-legged stool to stand on. There's nothing to use against me because I'm not coming to the table with anything. You think that color identity should be revisited. I like it the way it is. The only evidence that either of us is proving is our own personal opinions and those of the half-dozen or so voices in this thread. Again, I want to stress that I'm not trying to argue that "I'm right" or that "you're wrong." The point that I'm trying to make is that everyone here is coming to the table with a big gun but no ammunition. Insofar as the basis for these discussions are just "what the 6 of us personally believe" don't expect the outcome to yield favorable results. If your argument is "I, as an individual, believe that they should change the way in which color identity is treated" don't be surprised when you're met with "I, as an individual, believe that it should remain the same." What I will say is that burden of proof does lie on the side seeking change. Until someone can provide a compelling argument as to why the concept of color identity should be completely revisited don't expect anyone to take the suggestion seriosuly. No offense, but no one cares what you (or I) think. We're just nobodies who have (more-or-less) absolutely no say int he final decision. If everyone could have their way with what EDH looked like the format would be horrendous. Someone on the "pro change" side needs to start providing compelling arguments as to why drastic changes which would negatively affect thousands of EDH players are worthwhile. You can say "but the RC reads these threads" but how many hundreds of proposed changes do you think they've seen over the years? What makes this one special/different? If the best that you can come with is "I want to play Boros Reckoner in my Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker deck then don't expect them to roll out changes that would affect thousands upon thousands of fans.
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Your "simple" rules would allow all decks to run phyrexian mana cards. I would say that discussing phyrexian mana along with hybrid mana is more than relevant here.
Quoting someone who doesn't play multiplayer, I get that it may be queer. But quoting from someone who designs our game and created the hybrid mechanic is totally relevant.
Of course, it's so simple to dismiss Hybrid cards now. I think we need a little perspective here. What if we've 500+ hybrid cards in the future? I believe this will happen, and one that we shouldn't ignore.
From a design standpoint, Hybrid should totally work in Commander. You can hate/dislike the person, but questioning the basis of hybrid's design is certainly an insult (which he admitted).
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I think, hybrid discussion is right in place after the FTF release. There is a LOT of hybrid activating costs and they can surely fit into 2-colored decks. So I think it is worth discussing it. Also, there is possibility, they will print even more such hybrid cards in the future.
CI was discussed before, as Memnarch and others were not legal. Now they are. People were agaisnt it and now they have no problem with it. Same went with PW as generals. I think the format is changing and some rules can be changed or improved..
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I agree. We were discussing it in our PG and we realized, there is very little or virtually no impact that would make the game broken. Its not like if you allow hybrid cards or even mono colored cars with hybrid activating symbols (like recent fate reforged generals) it would completely break the game. I don't think that having Divinity of Pride in my mono-b is more broken than anyone having Prophet of Kruphix in any of his decks. Or having Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest in Izzet storm or in Azorius control is still not as OP or broken as 95% of T&N which regulary end the game...
I think the impact would be a lot higher than people are assuming. Just UW hybrid alone, I found like 3 cards that would do very disgusting things if my Saffi list had access to them. If the argument is just for off color hybrid activations... if the cards would be low impact, why do do you want them anyway? I am sincerely curious. Is it a 'just because it should be this way' thing?