Mass LD is fine but as a ramp player I will kill you first if I suspect you have any. Don't complain when I do, way too many people hide behind the "but its fair!" argument and therefore they should not be focused out of playing in multiplayer.
Armageddon as a win-con after you've set up a winning board state? Cool.
Armageddon in a deck that can use stuff to make it one-sided (Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds)? Sure.
Armageddon as a counter to mass land ramp decks? Go for it.
Armageddon as a "I'm not winning so I'm going to make it so no one else gets to play either" move? Go to hell. Stay there.
One shop I frequent has players with long memories. If you pull that move, they will ensure you never enjoy a game of EDH there ever again.
Sounds like a scrub-fest. MLD as a panic button is totally legit. Hell, if I have a mana rock and 2 lands in my hand I will definitely turn-4 Armageddon as a value play. I probably just 12-for-1ed (or more) the table. If they want me, come and get me. I know enough to pack a ton of answers and sweepers in my deck. Anyhow, my point is that if you limit yourself strategically, it's just poor play. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of optimization. If you want to purposely limit yourself with rules not included in the game itself, it's just scrubdom. Also, I'm soooo glad that I don't play at your store.
Then you wouldn't have any problem with players killing you the second you sit down?
Nice assumption about them being bad players. Two of them made day two at GP Portland last month. One more barely missed it because he played to a draw against Brad Nelson on stream. Whole store was watching that match. They just don't like it when in a casual game outside a tournament a player goes "I missed two land drops, and no one killed me so that I get to continue playing, so the very second I have four lands and no other mana sources, I'm gonna armageddon."
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Sounds like a scrub-fest. MLD as a panic button is totally legit. Hell, if I have a mana rock and 2 lands in my hand I will definitely turn-4 Armageddon as a value play. I probably just 12-for-1ed (or more) the table. If they want me, come and get me. I know enough to pack a ton of answers and sweepers in my deck. Anyhow, my point is that if you limit yourself strategically, it's just poor play. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of optimization. If you want to purposely limit yourself with rules not included in the game itself, it's just scrubdom. Also, I'm soooo glad that I don't play at your store.
And I'm so glad that you don't play at mine. Look, different people enjoy playing games different ways. I don't see why you feel the need to insult people who want a more casual EDH experience.
To the OP, we houseruled away MLD. We prefer huge, built-up, ridiculous board states, and mass removal (of any sort) is detrimental to that goal. But that's just us.
Honestly the real reason people hate MLD is the same reason that they hate stax and heavy control. Many people don't enjoy grindy games where nobody really accomplishes much of anything. Sitting and doing nothing but pass the turn until you die isn't fun.
A player casts MLD then scoops after EoT. This is simply vindictive behaviour and bad sportsmanship. Mind you this is fine 1v1
Casting it to stop yourself from being killed, fine.
Casting it to win, fine.
Casting it to balance a board state, fine.
Casting it to gain slow advantage from card that have synergy with it, fine.
I prefer mass permanent removal, including lands but that's just me. Jokulhaups while Bolas and Karn are on the field? Good play.
MLD were printed, and still occasionally get printed. I think this is a hint in itself that MLD is OK.
msun: Knives scoop ice cream.
Highroller: No they don't, knives don't scoop. Spoons scoop.
msun: Well, knives SHOULD scoop icecream.
Highroller: We have spoons that do it. Moreover, the shape of a knife that would scoop ice cream would make it horrible for performing the functions of a knife.
msun: Highroller, you bring up spoons as though they were the utensil used for scooping ice cream.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
I have never had any issue with MLD. I don't care what the situation is, if i have a sol ring and I played last and i have Armageddon im casting it turn 2 or 3 unless I see quite a bit of artifact mana across from me. That being said MLD is not something i ever just toss in a deck its almost always a core strategy and the decks almost always built to take full advantage of it.
I was in a 7 player constructed match once, I don't remember all the decks cause there were so many, but I had out Ember Swallower a few dorks and Xenagos, The Reveler and I was one turn away from hitting monstrosity, when the guy across the table from me (playing elf ball) took me out first cause he knew what I was about to do. Personally, MLD is ok with me if you can get the advantage out of it, but if you're gonna just quit after you do it, then don't bother to have the cards in your deck, it ruins the fun for everyone and you just lost a group of people to play with.
MLD feels cheap. It feels like a "You can't build a better deck than me or with more synergy so you shove a bunch of land destruction in to slow me down enough for your *****ty deck to do its thing."
I really really feel like LD is a cheap way to win. I'd much rather someone go infinite and win in one turn than have to play out ten to fifteen gruesome turns where only one player can play. That's not the nature of what's supposed to be a fun game mode.
I hate Daretti so much.
_______ feels cheap. It feels like a "You can't build a better deck than me or with more synergy so you shove a bunch of _______ in to slow me down enough for your *****ty deck to do its thing."
I really really feel like _______ is a cheap way to win.
You know this exactly how everyone feels towards the defensive strategies they lose to, right?
"_______" is counter magic. "_______" is ramp. "_______" is Deadeye Navigator.
The problem with MLD is that nobody enjoys being mana screwed. Whilst you can just be unlucky and get mana screwed (or flooded) occasionally, if you've built your deck right then it shouldn't be a very common occurrence. MLD skips this and punches you straight in the land base regardless of how well you've built your deck.
Personally though if its done for a legit reason (blow it up and scoop is not a legit reason) then go right ahead. Its part of the game and a legit strategy. EDH is about big effects and having fun and I wonder how much of a bigger effect you can have then destroying all lands. Also the suspense of who can re-establish fastest ect is great fun.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
I think the problem is you aren't playing with enough Batmen
OT:
EDH is ironically the easiest format in which to face MLD, what with all the disruption, mana dorks, artifact acceleration, 0-mana spells and cheap card filtering. As usual, people should stop whining and just play some EDH.
If you play MLD -- as a valid strategy, as a desperation move to survive, or as a troll/griefer tactic -- expect the other players at the table to team up against you in future games or possibly to stop playing with you. I have a family member who has a Jhoira of the Ghitu deck that tries to suspend Obliterate (Jokulhaups, Decree of Annihilation) with Worldgorger Dragon. I'm certainly going to be focusing eliminating him from the game first.
One of the drivers of EDH is that players get to play "Battlecruiser Magic" where big splashy spells can be played. Not every player wants to play this way, but this playstyle does attract a lot of new players. This influx of new players is likely why Wizards designs its pre-constructed Commander decks to play in this manner.
I was playing in a game on MTGO, and one guy who was about to lose cast Armageddon just for troll's sake. A bit of convincing and he got kicked with it on the stack. Oh, the rage after that...
The main reason I frown on mass-LD and don't run any is that I don't want to be in a position to ruin someone's play experience. Yeah, you could have a Spiky playgroup who will love the extra tension of trying to topdeck lands to recover. But you could also have the kid who barely modified his precon and will sit in bewildered misery for the next 5+ turns waiting for a land.
In a game meant for enjoyment, I try never to kill anyone's fun. And with mass-LD, you could very well be doing that.
This is pretty much exactly how I feel about it. There's no enjoyment in the rest of the table at watching you solitaire.
If winning is all you care about, maybe EDH is not for you.
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My modern Decks: GBRJundGBR URWJeskai NahiriURW My Legacy Deck: URBGrixis DelverURB My EDH Decks: GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB GRhys, The RedeemedW RWArchangel AvacynRW UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
Throwing this out there, and I am curious at what replies I get. Someone mentioned in the thread that MLD can turn people into spectators. There have been games where I was not able to get a creature out or something to block with for the first 4-5ish turns. So I was taking all the beatings - in which had me dead before I could play my 5th land. I was a spectator for the next hour.
At my playgroup the rule is generally just "tell us at the start of the game if you're running MLD." that way you can hold back lands and play intelligently, whereas if you did that every game you would lose to the people who poop out all their lands with no downside by sheer tempo.
Also if you play it in the manner everyone considers annoying you'll get murdered first 3v1 every game until you're truly sorry and change your behavior, or leave and never come back.
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
MLD by itself is 100% fine. Literally every color has answers to it (mana rocks, Crucible of Worlds), and some can even render it inert (Terra Eternal or counterspells). Blow up everything spells (Jokulhaups and co.) are a bit worse since the only answer some colors have to this is Darksteel Forge, which comes online significantly later than most of those spells, or hold onto lands if you suspect it is coming. The one card that sticks out as just not ok to me is Decree of Annihilation (cycling it is fine of course), since it is extremely difficult to deal with unless you are playing blue, and usually if it gets hard cast the caster has no plan. Unless you are playing Norin the Wary and also have out Confusion in the Ranks, then it is a totally legitimate plan.
Throwing this out there, and I am curious at what replies I get. Someone mentioned in the thread that MLD can turn people into spectators. There have been games where I was not able to get a creature out or something to block with for the first 4-5ish turns. So I was taking all the beatings - in which had me dead before I could play my 5th land. I was a spectator for the next hour.
Does this relate?
Absolutely. If the argument is that MLD creates spectators then so does aggro. By this definition only game winning combo fail to create spectators.
Many people hate MLD because they do not like having their resources attacked (nor do they like being pressured from an unfamiliar axis). This game is a lot easier when you never have to worry about land d, discard, or even mill for that matter. Just build resources and pass the turn. It's really lazy Magic. How rewarding is the win if you don't have to fight through any hate?
If someone can't be bothered to hold on to a couple lands in hand, or maybe play a counterspell once in a while, I can't be bothered to play Magic with them.
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EDH playing competitive Magic cast away
Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Throwing this out there, and I am curious at what replies I get. Someone mentioned in the thread that MLD can turn people into spectators. There have been games where I was not able to get a creature out or something to block with for the first 4-5ish turns. So I was taking all the beatings - in which had me dead before I could play my 5th land. I was a spectator for the next hour. Does this relate?
Thank you. Many green based players that I sometimes play with will scoop to MLD. But I respond with "what else counters massive ramp?" In Esper, I play 38+ lands and 6-8 mana rocks. Other decks, might be harder, HOWEVER, I was playing Zedruu and got land screwed because of 1) not drawing my 3rd land within the first 5 turns and 2) some black players using small pox (not complaining) - but no one was attacking me (they felt bad). I kept discarding EoT due to 8+ cards in hand, but once I had 4 lands, bam replenish and won the game.
More opinions stated as facts. Players who overextend turn themselves into spectators. Furthermore, "enjoyable" -- much like the ever contentious "casual" -- is subjective. I play games with other adults who enjoy a challenge. Would that more Magic players treated the game like any other. I never hear complaints like these about other multiplayer games.
None of that was stated as fact, it was clearly an opinion. And comparing anyone who disagrees to complaining children isn't exactly going to get people on board with your OPINION.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
In this particular instance, since its a 1v1 game then I see pretty much no problem with playing MLD at any time. Duel Commander is a different animal.
Where MLD is less okay is in a multiplayer setting. MLD gets its bad reputation from the guy who watches the first 3-4 turns of everyone pretty much only playing lands and a few setup spells only to play Armageddon and set everything back to zero. Those first few turns are relatively boring compared to the rest of the game, and now we have to do the start of the game all over again except with hands that contain significantly less lands. Even if you are "okay" with MLD, its still a frustrating experience.
Overall, I think that a lot of people who play EDH play a mana curve that's too high, plays too few lands, and generally does not play around mass-LD like they would mass-creature kill or mass-artifact kill. This makes the experience of getting 'Geddoned hurt all the more. The options are to socially ban MLD or to make sure that the group you play with is okay with it. If they are, and you can reasonably expect MLD in any given game, then you can prepare for it by playing a lower curve, more lands, and presumably holding back lands just in case.
At my playgroup the rule is generally just "tell us at the start of the game if you're running MLD." that way you can hold back lands and play intelligently, whereas if you did that every game you would lose to the people who poop out all their lands with no downside by sheer tempo.
Also if you play it in the manner everyone considers annoying you'll get murdered first 3v1 every game until you're truly sorry and change your behavior, or leave and never come back.
That's bogus. What reason do you have not to play intelligently. You also want to know if a deck has counter spells? Because that way you can hold back your win-cons and play intelligently.
MLD is just resource control, which is something that more players should be aware of. Manage your resources.
Considering not everyone likes MLD and thus only ~5% of decks have it, it's pretty needed. If you don't run MLD, and everyone but one guy is running decks you know don't run MLD and your meta is generally no MLD, would you really be holding back lands and resources? You'll lose a TON of tempo to decks that don't jump at shadows.
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
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MLD just to prolong losing or to toy with people = only funny once.
Really, this is true of any other high impact card.
Then you wouldn't have any problem with players killing you the second you sit down?
Nice assumption about them being bad players. Two of them made day two at GP Portland last month. One more barely missed it because he played to a draw against Brad Nelson on stream. Whole store was watching that match. They just don't like it when in a casual game outside a tournament a player goes "I missed two land drops, and no one killed me so that I get to continue playing, so the very second I have four lands and no other mana sources, I'm gonna armageddon."
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
And I'm so glad that you don't play at mine. Look, different people enjoy playing games different ways. I don't see why you feel the need to insult people who want a more casual EDH experience.
To the OP, we houseruled away MLD. We prefer huge, built-up, ridiculous board states, and mass removal (of any sort) is detrimental to that goal. But that's just us.
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
A player casts MLD then scoops after EoT. This is simply vindictive behaviour and bad sportsmanship. Mind you this is fine 1v1
Casting it to stop yourself from being killed, fine.
Casting it to win, fine.
Casting it to balance a board state, fine.
Casting it to gain slow advantage from card that have synergy with it, fine.
I prefer mass permanent removal, including lands but that's just me. Jokulhaups while Bolas and Karn are on the field? Good play.
MLD were printed, and still occasionally get printed. I think this is a hint in itself that MLD is OK.
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Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
You know this exactly how everyone feels towards the defensive strategies they lose to, right?
"_______" is counter magic. "_______" is ramp. "_______" is Deadeye Navigator.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Personally though if its done for a legit reason (blow it up and scoop is not a legit reason) then go right ahead. Its part of the game and a legit strategy. EDH is about big effects and having fun and I wonder how much of a bigger effect you can have then destroying all lands. Also the suspense of who can re-establish fastest ect is great fun.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
As a win condition, it's pretty damn effective.
You just have to learn to adapt, am currently buying up cards like Sunder which I can use to screw his game plan.
I think the problem is you aren't playing with enough Batmen
OT:
EDH is ironically the easiest format in which to face MLD, what with all the disruption, mana dorks, artifact acceleration, 0-mana spells and cheap card filtering. As usual, people should stop whining and just play some EDH.
One of the drivers of EDH is that players get to play "Battlecruiser Magic" where big splashy spells can be played. Not every player wants to play this way, but this playstyle does attract a lot of new players. This influx of new players is likely why Wizards designs its pre-constructed Commander decks to play in this manner.
The main reason I frown on mass-LD and don't run any is that I don't want to be in a position to ruin someone's play experience. Yeah, you could have a Spiky playgroup who will love the extra tension of trying to topdeck lands to recover. But you could also have the kid who barely modified his precon and will sit in bewildered misery for the next 5+ turns waiting for a land.
In a game meant for enjoyment, I try never to kill anyone's fun. And with mass-LD, you could very well be doing that.
If winning is all you care about, maybe EDH is not for you.
GBRJundGBR
URWJeskai NahiriURW
My Legacy Deck:
URBGrixis DelverURB
My EDH Decks:
GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB
GRhys, The RedeemedW
RWArchangel AvacynRW
UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
Does this relate?
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Also if you play it in the manner everyone considers annoying you'll get murdered first 3v1 every game until you're truly sorry and change your behavior, or leave and never come back.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Absolutely. If the argument is that MLD creates spectators then so does aggro. By this definition only game winning combo fail to create spectators.
Many people hate MLD because they do not like having their resources attacked (nor do they like being pressured from an unfamiliar axis). This game is a lot easier when you never have to worry about land d, discard, or even mill for that matter. Just build resources and pass the turn. It's really lazy Magic. How rewarding is the win if you don't have to fight through any hate?
If someone can't be bothered to hold on to a couple lands in hand, or maybe play a counterspell once in a while, I can't be bothered to play Magic with them.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Thank you. Many green based players that I sometimes play with will scoop to MLD. But I respond with "what else counters massive ramp?" In Esper, I play 38+ lands and 6-8 mana rocks. Other decks, might be harder, HOWEVER, I was playing Zedruu and got land screwed because of 1) not drawing my 3rd land within the first 5 turns and 2) some black players using small pox (not complaining) - but no one was attacking me (they felt bad). I kept discarding EoT due to 8+ cards in hand, but once I had 4 lands, bam replenish and won the game.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Where MLD is less okay is in a multiplayer setting. MLD gets its bad reputation from the guy who watches the first 3-4 turns of everyone pretty much only playing lands and a few setup spells only to play Armageddon and set everything back to zero. Those first few turns are relatively boring compared to the rest of the game, and now we have to do the start of the game all over again except with hands that contain significantly less lands. Even if you are "okay" with MLD, its still a frustrating experience.
Overall, I think that a lot of people who play EDH play a mana curve that's too high, plays too few lands, and generally does not play around mass-LD like they would mass-creature kill or mass-artifact kill. This makes the experience of getting 'Geddoned hurt all the more. The options are to socially ban MLD or to make sure that the group you play with is okay with it. If they are, and you can reasonably expect MLD in any given game, then you can prepare for it by playing a lower curve, more lands, and presumably holding back lands just in case.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Considering not everyone likes MLD and thus only ~5% of decks have it, it's pretty needed. If you don't run MLD, and everyone but one guy is running decks you know don't run MLD and your meta is generally no MLD, would you really be holding back lands and resources? You'll lose a TON of tempo to decks that don't jump at shadows.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress