So, Over the last few days I've been playing with a LOT of group hug players. As a control player, I naturally hate the ***** out of group hug as its means to winning are so antithetical to my own. But What strikes me as being more troublesome is the notion that group hug decks are "for the promotion of fun." In my limited experience this means making every player draw half their deck and doubling or tripling their available mana. Yet these same players seem to be aggravated when this enables absolutely absurd infinite combos, (and game ending plays/extreme control, generally) and "the fun has been ruined." Group hugging, it seems to me results in an undesirable game state 90% of the time and rather than promoting "wacky, fun antics" lends itself to sheer stupidity. All it takes is one spike at the table and the game is over and everyone's mad.
Am I alone in this experience? What can be done to temper such attitudes?
You are far from alone. I like building and playing my decks. Group Hug negates any skill with both of those. It gives people no incentive to play well or really even pay attention. The amount of luck in MTG is already pretty high, but Group Hug says "Luck will be the ONLY factor now." The person who sits to the left of the Group Hug player usually wins.
It's not cute. It's not clever. And you will find that very very few Group Hug players do it for very long because it really isn't that fun after the novelty wears off.
I've seen that happen in my meta before too. Since then though, players have learned to group hug more responsibly. I used to be totally against playing any cards that even slightly helped my opponents in any way, but now I've learned the poltiical manipulation value of such traditionally bad plays. Group hug can work strategically if you can keep everyone under control simulatenously. A dedicated group hug deck needs to be liked by the table and then manipulate the other players to kill each other, so that then you can take out the last man standing by yourself, usually.
Still, Heartbeat of Spring and Mana Flare are just plain stupid. I have seen them used countless times and they do nothing but permit the most efficient deck win the next turn.
Don't be the guy who runs Heartbeat of Spring or Mana Flare. Those two cards DO cause group hug to get ridiculous. If I have a krosan grip in hand neither one of those cards will stick on the board for long enough for their mana bonus to ever be used. Everything else? Not nearly as bad. Hell, I'd prefer being locked down with stax or mass land destruction over the sheer stupid of Mana Flare and Heartbeat of Spring. When those cards are played, strategy goes out the window and the luckiest/spikiest deck wins next turn.
We have a grouphug player that wins through Worldpurge in one way or another. Talk about dragging out games that's already long.
I play Nekusar and i feel most of the times that it's a grouphug deck, but it's at the same time kinda dangerous :).
I mean Nekusar can be quite stupid but i enjoy it since it can let the game flow in the start, keeping the game running and it helps people that mulliganed really bad or aren't drawing any lands.
I usually play it in +4 player games since they can tend to take alot of time. I don't play to end the game on turn 4-5 but if i want to i can pull the trigger.
I like Mana Flare in Aurelia, the Warleader because I will usually have something better to play than decks tuned for lower curves (like most good players). There is a strategy to doubling mana and group drawing cards that should not be associated with group hug because it is still trying to win. I agree that group hug is degenerate and the player who plays it will most likely get bored of it.
Group hug is only fun when you are playing Horde EDH. I like one group hug/control deck, one aggro deck and one combo/control deck against the horde. Like Edric hug/control, Krenko aggro/combo and Niv combo/control is a great group against the horde.
Actively disrupt or kill the group hug player first. I do this all the time. "No table, I will not let that Heartbeat of Spring stick around." Many of my decks benefit greatly from grinding out value and letting every player draw extra cards is not a "hug". It's aggression against my deck's strategy. I don't hate group hug as a concept, but I will actively target that player first.
Yeah, I'm in the camp that (in EDH) if someone is doing something you don't like, then that's their ass! So, ggo after him! You gotta have fun, too.
And this is coming from someone that likes to play group hug occasionally.
If that is no good, then just level with these group-huggers and ask as if you can get it your way sometimes and just have a non-group-hug game going. Might be tough at some LGS, though.
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"Until you have lived as a statue, do not talk to me of pigeons."
—Karn, silver golem
I play a Phelddagrif group hug deck very occasionally. It's a true group hug deck that gives card advantage to every player equally. Mostly use it when there are players new to EDH entering my play group, so it doesn't see a whole lot of play. The main reason I play it is to soften their entry playing the format - it's a quirky deck that defies the desire to win.
It really rarely gets played though - it's fun for me when I see players go 'but why would you give me cards?', but I also like playing competitively to win the game, which is what my other decks are geared towards.
My first deck was Angus Mackenzie group hug, it would make games go on forever, do nothing constructive, and durdle more than any of my casual 60 card decks have ever durdled. That was just after Lorwyn came out. 5 hour games are not fun, one player championing another player to spite another is not fun. Now its all agro all the time. If I see Bant colored generals I tend to focus the hater vision instantly. I don't care if that person has a bad time for 20 min and has to sit and watch the other people play for the next 30 to 40, I'm not going to sit there dishing out 10+ damage a turn only to have that negated in the name of "fun"
I hate group hug more than Stax, Land destruction, combo, and Zur combined.
Unless you plan on playing Oath of druids into a blightsteel colossus don't give me any hippos.
All it does it make the combo deck win faster.
It's the only archtype I attack first ironically enough
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Hey guys so I've actually moved on from commander on to 60 card decks so I don't have any commander decks.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
I hate group hug more than Stax, Land destruction, combo, and Zur combined.
Unless you plan on playing Oath of druids into a blightsteel colossus don't give me any hippos.
All it does it make the combo deck win faster.
It's the only archtype I attack first ironically enough
Why is Group Hug bad? Sure, give me mana. The Group Hug player is then not a threat and can help me get my instant-win combo. Plus, some people legitimately like to help other people. What's to hate?
I should probably be clear about something though. I'm not totally against group hug. I enjoy playing it and against it when it's not a totally stupid form of group hug. I still detest Mana Flare and Heartbeat of Spring, but not really any of the rest. You can build a deck with some group hug effects and use it to your advantage both politically and as an actual strategy. That strategy being, your opponents become your resources because you enable them, as long as you keep them from comboing out themselves or killing you.
I have 3 decks that carry group hug effects and 1 that has a couple of single target hug effects. I use them as such strategically:
1. Kruphix, God of Horizons EDH (just a little bit of group hug): Collective Voyage - usually helps me the most as my general makes the deck capable of wasting no resources and accumulating tons of mana plus I have amulet of vigor in the deck for crazy profitability, and it makes underdog players like me too. can create stupidity but UG goodstuff can usually keep everyone else under control even if I give everyone a ton of lands. Tempt with Discovery is a favorite ramp card of mine that enables the crazy ramp play of Temple of the False God -> Vesuva if anyone at the table is willing to give me that advantage to get themselves a land, which they usually are because I don't try to combo out immediately with all my mana. Vision Skeins - flat group hug for sure, in my social, very diplomatic meta this is great for lowering my profile by appearing not so greedy. Skyscribing - potential to kill people by drawing out, this card deceptively looks like group hug.
Also, running consecrated sphinx in kruphix so the above two cards net me tons of value if I have it in play.
Otherwise the deck doesn't have any other group hug effects. They are all instants/sorceries so they are more tactically applicable.
2. Verdeloth the Ancient EDH (actually a group hug deck):
Has Tempt with Discovery and Collective Voyage just like Kruphix above Keeper of Progenitus This is what I run instead of Heartbeat of Spring. You just don't mana hug blue or black decks if you want to live. Vernal Bloom - only helps green decks Rites of Flourishing - Okay, this is pretty darn dangerous. I don't really have an excuse for it, other than that this card has never ruined a game in my meta yet even after 3 turns sticking. Concordant Crossroads - sometimes I play this early instead of on my win-seeking turn because it puts combo players in a really precarious place when non-red decks have access to haste for everything. Otherwise it's played on my turn to make my just-recently summoned token army K/O the board. Well of Knowledge - Not nearly as high profile as Kami or Howling Mine. Helps a green deck most since green tends to have more mana than everyone else. Opponents can also make the mistake of getting greedy with this and making themselves targets of wiser players. Temple Bell - Group hug effect that can be controlled to happen when you want it to happen. Extraplanar Lens (hugs forest-running decks) - Meh, I don't need snow lands. Usually I end up making some other green player happy and more willing to help me out in the game.
3. Sakashima the Impostor EDH - Has some notable hug effects, but it's not blindly so - there is a plan to it. Kami of the Crescent Moon - Flat hug which Sakashima can be a double of Howling Mine - Flat hug Dictate of Kruphix - Flat out hug, at least its flashable which is useful Pyxis of Pandemonium - I fully intend to sac it later on and see what happens to the boardstate. Extraplanar Lens (hugs island-running decks) - See above.
Meanwhile I'm also running every good blue boardwipe I possibly can in the deck if things get too unmanageable. Typically the plan is to enable my opponents with lots of card draw, then steal their things with Reins of Power or other methods, since the point of the deck is to use my opponent's decks against them, steal their cards and permanents, as it is unable to win in a vacuum without committing theft.
4. Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind EDH: Intellectual offering - purely for political purposes, a targeted hug. Otherwise the deck has a good deal of mean stuff like Mana Short, Torpor Orb, and Volcanic Offering.
About half of my draw cards can also target other players to make them draw cards if I want to be really nice and give someone card advantage as part of a temporary alliance, or, make them die if someone at the table is playing Nekusar, the Mindrazer (of which there are 4 different Nekusar decks in my meta so its likely to happen)
You just have to know how to build and play the hug decks right so that people don't get infuriated at you for doing it.
Why is Group Hug bad? Sure, give me mana. The Group Hug player is then not a threat and can help me get my instant-win combo. Plus, some people legitimately like to help other people. What's to hate?
The player is a threat to the game itself. If a player sat down with a Planechase Plane that said "Roll a dice, high roll wins" it's the same. And yes, giving you your instant win combo is what it does. Cool. You didn't even have to play the game. Why not just hire a little kid to play for you?
Why is Group Hug bad? Sure, give me mana. The Group Hug player is then not a threat and can help me get my instant-win combo. Plus, some people legitimately like to help other people. What's to hate?
The player is a threat to the game itself. If a player sat down with a Planechase Plane that said "Roll a dice, high roll wins" it's the same. And yes, giving you your instant win combo is what it does. Cool. You didn't even have to play the game. Why not just hire a little kid to play for you?
I dunno about you, but considering most competitive EDH decks are about not playing Magic in the first place, I dunno if I would consider a Group Hug deck as condescendingly as you seem to.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Group hug isn't group hug, it's kingmaker. Whoever gets most out of it wins. Now, if a group deck has an actual winning plan, I don't mind, but those that don't should be thrown in a fire. The decks, that is, not the players.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I dunno about you, but considering most competitive EDH decks are about not playing Magic in the first place
What in the nine hells does this even mean?
What do competitive magic decks do? They end the game. Fast.
As a Zur player, it is in my best interest to actively prevent my opponent from playing the game, typically by a Contamination/Bitterblossom combo (It's mah favorite). That means, only one person (myself) is playing the game.
I want to combo players out ASAP. I want my opponents to have no clue as to what just happened and to why they lost. It's not unheard of for me (or people in my meta) to combo out turn five or sooner. The longer the games go on, the more likely someone else can do something and win, so the best option, the only option, is to prevent the game from going on that long; actually winning before that happens. Which means we actively aren't trying to play the game, we are trying to end it.
Scion of the Ur-Dragon? How often can he swing in for a 1 turn kill? He doesn't want to play the game, he wants you out of it. Zur the Enchanter? How fast can he assemble a lock? He doesn't want to play the game, he wants you out of it.
GAAIV? He doesn't want to play the game, he wants you to not cast spells.
Tell me, what combo do most people search up for with Tooth and Nail? Not a combo of creatures to advance their board, but a combo to, you guessed it, end the game.
Competitive Magic is about playing Magic in the least amount of time doing the least amount of things. Even in other formats.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Wow, it sounds like people here have had some really bad experiences with other players playing group hug. What in particular would you watch out for or otherwise not want a group hug player to be doing?
I wouldn't go so far as to say group hug is all bad, like a couple of people here. Just specific cards. It should be noted that creating the illusion of chaos or making it look like you're letting someone win when you're not is a legitimate strategy that can be used to your advantage - this can be done with group hug but for it to be an illusion the group hug player needs to have a strong control 'grip' in hand that their opponents may not be fully aware of. Such as that the combo player(s) will be baited and will go and think 'oh, yeah, it's safe for me to combo out!' and then get told no with Pact of Negation/Force of Will and other such answers. Or, perhaps give everyone all kinds of cards and mana and then play permissions effects that culminate in locking those threats away as you net yourself the most advantage. Even so, at best making any group hug play is still a gamble with notable risks.
Simply creating chaos with no plan though? That would be trolling what could have been a great game.
Group hug isn't group hug, it's kingmaker. Whoever gets most out of it wins. Now, if a group deck has an actual winning plan, I don't mind, but those that don't should be thrown in a fire. The decks, that is, not the players.
No, a kingmaker deck tries to make one specific person win. (Either by removing everyone else's resources or by giving that person extra resources.) A grouphug deck gives everybody more resources than they ought to have.
And by doing so they tend to end up being kingmaker. Some decks thrive on the early game, when players cannot get enough resources to combat threats (my old Kemba deck used to be like that). Group Hug then decides that no, not the one getting the proper setup is going to win, but the one who profits the most from the grouphugging - ergo, kingmaking. It's probably not intended to be a kingmaker deck, but it does function like one.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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Am I alone in this experience? What can be done to temper such attitudes?
gruop hug is a thing, if you rally hate it, play only 1 vs 1
It's not cute. It's not clever. And you will find that very very few Group Hug players do it for very long because it really isn't that fun after the novelty wears off.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Still, Heartbeat of Spring and Mana Flare are just plain stupid. I have seen them used countless times and they do nothing but permit the most efficient deck win the next turn.
Don't be the guy who runs Heartbeat of Spring or Mana Flare. Those two cards DO cause group hug to get ridiculous. If I have a krosan grip in hand neither one of those cards will stick on the board for long enough for their mana bonus to ever be used. Everything else? Not nearly as bad. Hell, I'd prefer being locked down with stax or mass land destruction over the sheer stupid of Mana Flare and Heartbeat of Spring. When those cards are played, strategy goes out the window and the luckiest/spikiest deck wins next turn.
I play Nekusar and i feel most of the times that it's a grouphug deck, but it's at the same time kinda dangerous :).
I mean Nekusar can be quite stupid but i enjoy it since it can let the game flow in the start, keeping the game running and it helps people that mulliganed really bad or aren't drawing any lands.
I usually play it in +4 player games since they can tend to take alot of time. I don't play to end the game on turn 4-5 but if i want to i can pull the trigger.
I hope you guys understand what i mean lol.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
I like Mana Flare in Aurelia, the Warleader because I will usually have something better to play than decks tuned for lower curves (like most good players). There is a strategy to doubling mana and group drawing cards that should not be associated with group hug because it is still trying to win. I agree that group hug is degenerate and the player who plays it will most likely get bored of it.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
R Norin the Wary: I've Got a Bad Feeling About This
UG Thrasios & Kydele: Knowledge is Power
RG Borborygmos Enraged: The Breaking of the World
BG The Gitrog Monster: All Glory to the Hypnotoad
WUR Zedruu the Greathearted: Endless Possibilities, One Outcome
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain: What's Dead May Never Die
Turn your junk into something great with PucaTrade!
And this is coming from someone that likes to play group hug occasionally.
If that is no good, then just level with these group-huggers and ask as if you can get it your way sometimes and just have a non-group-hug game going. Might be tough at some LGS, though.
—Karn, silver golem
This and this alone is my issue with Group Hug.
It really rarely gets played though - it's fun for me when I see players go 'but why would you give me cards?', but I also like playing competitively to win the game, which is what my other decks are geared towards.
Xira Arien Lands EDH List
Marchesa Recursion EDH List
Oloro Reanimator EDH List
GWGaddock TeegGW
Angus Mackenzie
Posting from Smartphone, please forgive any mistakes
Unless you plan on playing Oath of druids into a blightsteel colossus don't give me any hippos.
All it does it make the combo deck win faster.
It's the only archtype I attack first ironically enough
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Twitch:
https://www.twitch.tv/dies_to_doom_blade
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/UpsidedownHandshake
I do the same. mono blue plays Kami of the Crescent Moon, I plow them before EoT.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
-Commander-
UBGMill, Sidisi, and Other ShenanigansGBU
WUBRGShingeki no TazriGRBUW
I have 3 decks that carry group hug effects and 1 that has a couple of single target hug effects. I use them as such strategically:
1. Kruphix, God of Horizons EDH (just a little bit of group hug):
Collective Voyage - usually helps me the most as my general makes the deck capable of wasting no resources and accumulating tons of mana plus I have amulet of vigor in the deck for crazy profitability, and it makes underdog players like me too. can create stupidity but UG goodstuff can usually keep everyone else under control even if I give everyone a ton of lands.
Tempt with Discovery is a favorite ramp card of mine that enables the crazy ramp play of Temple of the False God -> Vesuva if anyone at the table is willing to give me that advantage to get themselves a land, which they usually are because I don't try to combo out immediately with all my mana.
Vision Skeins - flat group hug for sure, in my social, very diplomatic meta this is great for lowering my profile by appearing not so greedy.
Skyscribing - potential to kill people by drawing out, this card deceptively looks like group hug.
Also, running consecrated sphinx in kruphix so the above two cards net me tons of value if I have it in play.
Otherwise the deck doesn't have any other group hug effects. They are all instants/sorceries so they are more tactically applicable.
2. Verdeloth the Ancient EDH (actually a group hug deck):
Has Tempt with Discovery and Collective Voyage just like Kruphix above
Keeper of Progenitus This is what I run instead of Heartbeat of Spring. You just don't mana hug blue or black decks if you want to live.
Vernal Bloom - only helps green decks
Rites of Flourishing - Okay, this is pretty darn dangerous. I don't really have an excuse for it, other than that this card has never ruined a game in my meta yet even after 3 turns sticking.
Concordant Crossroads - sometimes I play this early instead of on my win-seeking turn because it puts combo players in a really precarious place when non-red decks have access to haste for everything. Otherwise it's played on my turn to make my just-recently summoned token army K/O the board.
Well of Knowledge - Not nearly as high profile as Kami or Howling Mine. Helps a green deck most since green tends to have more mana than everyone else. Opponents can also make the mistake of getting greedy with this and making themselves targets of wiser players.
Temple Bell - Group hug effect that can be controlled to happen when you want it to happen.
Extraplanar Lens (hugs forest-running decks) - Meh, I don't need snow lands. Usually I end up making some other green player happy and more willing to help me out in the game.
3. Sakashima the Impostor EDH - Has some notable hug effects, but it's not blindly so - there is a plan to it.
Kami of the Crescent Moon - Flat hug which Sakashima can be a double of
Howling Mine - Flat hug
Dictate of Kruphix - Flat out hug, at least its flashable which is useful
Pyxis of Pandemonium - I fully intend to sac it later on and see what happens to the boardstate.
Extraplanar Lens (hugs island-running decks) - See above.
Meanwhile I'm also running every good blue boardwipe I possibly can in the deck if things get too unmanageable. Typically the plan is to enable my opponents with lots of card draw, then steal their things with Reins of Power or other methods, since the point of the deck is to use my opponent's decks against them, steal their cards and permanents, as it is unable to win in a vacuum without committing theft.
4. Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind EDH:
Intellectual offering - purely for political purposes, a targeted hug. Otherwise the deck has a good deal of mean stuff like Mana Short, Torpor Orb, and Volcanic Offering.
About half of my draw cards can also target other players to make them draw cards if I want to be really nice and give someone card advantage as part of a temporary alliance, or, make them die if someone at the table is playing Nekusar, the Mindrazer (of which there are 4 different Nekusar decks in my meta so its likely to happen)
You just have to know how to build and play the hug decks right so that people don't get infuriated at you for doing it.
When nerds playing a game say they like helping each other I post this link each and every time: http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
This pleases me.
I dunno about you, but considering most competitive EDH decks are about not playing Magic in the first place, I dunno if I would consider a Group Hug deck as condescendingly as you seem to.
What in the nine hells does this even mean?
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
What do competitive magic decks do? They end the game. Fast.
As a Zur player, it is in my best interest to actively prevent my opponent from playing the game, typically by a Contamination/Bitterblossom combo (It's mah favorite). That means, only one person (myself) is playing the game.
I want to combo players out ASAP. I want my opponents to have no clue as to what just happened and to why they lost. It's not unheard of for me (or people in my meta) to combo out turn five or sooner. The longer the games go on, the more likely someone else can do something and win, so the best option, the only option, is to prevent the game from going on that long; actually winning before that happens. Which means we actively aren't trying to play the game, we are trying to end it.
Scion of the Ur-Dragon? How often can he swing in for a 1 turn kill? He doesn't want to play the game, he wants you out of it.
Zur the Enchanter? How fast can he assemble a lock? He doesn't want to play the game, he wants you out of it.
GAAIV? He doesn't want to play the game, he wants you to not cast spells.
Tell me, what combo do most people search up for with Tooth and Nail? Not a combo of creatures to advance their board, but a combo to, you guessed it, end the game.
Competitive Magic is about playing Magic in the least amount of time doing the least amount of things. Even in other formats.
I wouldn't go so far as to say group hug is all bad, like a couple of people here. Just specific cards. It should be noted that creating the illusion of chaos or making it look like you're letting someone win when you're not is a legitimate strategy that can be used to your advantage - this can be done with group hug but for it to be an illusion the group hug player needs to have a strong control 'grip' in hand that their opponents may not be fully aware of. Such as that the combo player(s) will be baited and will go and think 'oh, yeah, it's safe for me to combo out!' and then get told no with Pact of Negation/Force of Will and other such answers. Or, perhaps give everyone all kinds of cards and mana and then play permissions effects that culminate in locking those threats away as you net yourself the most advantage. Even so, at best making any group hug play is still a gamble with notable risks.
Simply creating chaos with no plan though? That would be trolling what could have been a great game.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.