Just want to comment on Body and Mind. I agree it's the worst of the swords, but it's nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be.
The usual argument is that it helps the people you hit with it more than it hurts them, but that's rarely the case. Sure, most EDH decks have some way to access the graveyard, but unless it's a dedicated graveyard deck, almost none have the ability to use every card in their grave, or even most.
They might reanimate a creature, or pick up a spell, but the other 9 cards you milled are often just out of the picture. As for the ones they do return, they've now gotten less uses out of them. Instead of casting that great creature, it eventually dying, then bringing it right back, they have to use reanimation to just get it once. Instead of getting two uses out of some powerful spell, they have to spend a card and extra mana just to get a single use.
For a long time I'd also been in line with the thought that SoBaM does more harm than good, but then I tried it out. It removes resources far more often than it grants them.
Yeah, and it's easy enough to pick a target that probably won't be able to use their graveyard. But there's always that chance that you mill their Time Warp and they have the Archaeomancer in their hand, and otherwise they'd have had to wait quite a few turns to get down to it.
I wouldn't mind it so much if the "green" side of the sword was more relevant. A 2/2 token is much less worthwhile than, for example, untapping all your lands a la F&F. The best thing about that sword, by far, is the protections, and that's less against removal and more for unblockablity as U/G are pretty common colors. It's just not worth it, overall. The potential to help your opponents, even a little, is just the nail in the coffin for the card.
Just want to comment on Body and Mind. I agree it's the worst of the swords, but it's nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be.
The usual argument is that it helps the people you hit with it more than it hurts them, but that's rarely the case. Sure, most EDH decks have some way to access the graveyard, but unless it's a dedicated graveyard deck, almost none have the ability to use every card in their grave, or even most.
They might reanimate a creature, or pick up a spell, but the other 9 cards you milled are often just out of the picture. As for the ones they do return, they've now gotten less uses out of them. Instead of casting that great creature, it eventually dying, then bringing it right back, they have to use reanimation to just get it once. Instead of getting two uses out of some powerful spell, they have to spend a card and extra mana just to get a single use.
For a long time I'd also been in line with the thought that SoBaM does more harm than good, but then I tried it out. It removes resources far more often than it grants them.
This! The wolf tokens are great blockers and if left unchecked can turn scary fast. (Even kicked a rite of replication on solemn and started swinging for the fences? It's scary damage even outside the CA.)
Also people keep ragging on the mill for helping the opponent. Aside from it often hurting them a lot, it also can help you a lot. Run it in Lazav, Mimeoplasm, Chainer or any of 500 more decks with great reanimation spells. You don't need a mill deck to take advantage of it.
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Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Sword of Body and Mind is equipment # like 7-9 for equipment you should be putting in your deck... if I'm being nice. Your Kemba esque equipment flavour deck at that rate.
It gives you a small beater insignificant and it gives them more cards in their graveyard for them to play with, something every colour of every deck uses to varying degrees of effectiveness. Black better then most, red not so good as the others, but all of them can use their graveyard.
Other than that it gives you pro the 2 best colours, which can be useful if either colours were known for their point removal.
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My big issue with Body and Mind is that typically the mill is unpredictable at best. Maybe you hit someone's game ending bomb when they have no way to get it back, but there's an equal chance that you just mill out 10 cards of chaff and get them closer to the same card. That makes it a useless effect to me. At worst, you let them pull out a 1-mana It That Betrays or something. I've never made such heavy use of my opponents' GY that it was a worthwhile risk. I'm not completely opposed to running the card, but there are a lot of other equipment cards I would include first.
I think War and Peace is underrated by a lot of people. I'll play it as my only Sword from time to time, and frequently as one of two alongside Fire and Ice. The damage can add up really quickly and the lifegain is not insignificant. It's better than Feast and Famine in a deck that just wants to bring opponents to 0 as fast as possible.
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My big issue with Body and Mind is that typically the mill is unpredictable at best. Maybe you hit someone's game ending bomb when they have no way to get it back, but there's an equal chance that you just mill out 10 cards of chaff and get them closer to the same card. That makes it a useless effect to me. At worst, you let them pull out a 1-mana It That Betrays or something. I've never made such heavy use of my opponents' GY that it was a worthwhile risk. I'm not completely opposed to running the card, but there are a lot of other equipment cards I would include first.
I think War and Peace is underrated by a lot of people. I'll play it as my only Sword from time to time, and frequently as one of two alongside Fire and Ice. The damage can add up really quickly and the lifegain is not insignificant. It's better than Feast and Famine in a deck that just wants to bring opponents to 0 as fast as possible.
EDH decks don't generally have chaff; every card in there is one the deckbuilder wanted. I know I'd personally consider my deck to have a problem if I could name 10 cards I didn't care if I lost.
As for getting a bomb out of it, they'd have gotten that anyway. If you mill them, they might reanimate a bomb. If you don't, they'll draw it, cast it, still have that reanimation spell for later, plus get to use the other 9 cards.
The argument of "then they can just play all the stuff from their grave" assumes that decks have absurd amount of recursion in them, but recursion spells are finite. How many do you play in your average deck? 3? 5? 7? Probably not 10 or more unless you're a dedicated reanimator, which means some number of cards you wanted to play are effectively removed from the game. Even in colors with strong reanimation, like black, it's limited. They're probably not picking up their Phyrexian Arena, or their Demonic Tutor, or their Caged Sun, etc.
The other argument is they get access to cards they wouldn't have seen otherwise. Personally, I rarely see a deck patiently waiting to draw the cards it wants. EDH is "Tutor: the Gathering". If instead of being able to go Demonic Tutor -> Creature, they now have to go Demonic Tutor -> Reanimation Spell -> Creature, I just effectively 2 for 1'd them. Sure if they have a reanimation spell in hand they get the creature back, but that still reduces the effectiveness of the spell, giving one use of the creature instead of two. And if they don't have the spell, it delays them getting that creature until they find one, instead of being able to just cast it.
Normally people fall in to the trap of only seeing best-case scenarios, but for some reason this card does the opposite; people only see the absolute worst possible situations, where every time you mill Mike+Trike and they have two reanimation spells in hand.
I've played with this sword a lot, versus decks that do run plenty of ways to return stuff from the grave. It hurts them a lot more than it helps. Give it a try, I think you'll be surprised.
well one deck in my meta is built around dumping stuff into the graveyard and bring it back,so that sword is a no go for me. I'm leaning on Sword of Feast and Famine due to the protection and untapping
Everyone thinks the 2/2 is a beater and not Sac fodder or something.....
The wolf at times helps me activate batallion for Tajic, Blade of the Legion. Sword of B and M has performed admittedly better than expected where I've used it.
EDH decks don't generally have chaff; every card in there is one the deckbuilder wanted. I know I'd personally consider my deck to have a problem if I could name 10 cards I didn't care if I lost.
As for getting a bomb out of it, they'd have gotten that anyway. If you mill them, they might reanimate a bomb. If you don't, they'll draw it, cast it, still have that reanimation spell for later, plus get to use the other 9 cards.
The argument of "then they can just play all the stuff from their grave" assumes that decks have absurd amount of recursion in them, but recursion spells are finite. How many do you play in your average deck? 3? 5? 7? Probably not 10 or more unless you're a dedicated reanimator, which means some number of cards you wanted to play are effectively removed from the game. Even in colors with strong reanimation, like black, it's limited. They're probably not picking up their Phyrexian Arena, or their Demonic Tutor, or their Caged Sun, etc.
The other argument is they get access to cards they wouldn't have seen otherwise. Personally, I rarely see a deck patiently waiting to draw the cards it wants. EDH is "Tutor: the Gathering". If instead of being able to go Demonic Tutor; Creature, they now have to go Demonic Tutor-> Reanimation Spell -> Creature, I just effectively 2 for 1'd them. Sure if they have a reanimation spell in hand they get the creature back, but that still reduces the effectiveness of the spell, giving one use of the creature instead of two. And if they don't have the spell, it delays them getting that creature until they find one, instead of being able to just cast it.Normally people fall in to the trap of only seeing best-case scenarios, but for some reason this card does the opposite; people only see the absolute worst possible situations, where every time you mill Mike+Trike and they have two reanimation spells in hand.
I've played with this sword a lot, versus decks that do run plenty of ways to return stuff from the grave. It hurts them a lot more than it helps. Give it a try, I think you'll be surprised.
This is faulty logic. For one thing most decks I run have reusable recursion like Life from the Loam, Volrath's stronghold, Ewit, Reveillark, Sun Titan. On top of that, there are cards that will then get those cards back if they need them. And Lastly there are the Legend Eldrazi in non recursive decks that make your milling moot unless you have Extracted if from their deck.
If they tutor for the reanimation, most of them cost less then the creature itself, basically making the creature cost less in general. The cards that don't give them this cheap tempo swing are the cards such as Genesis and Goblin welder, but they just gives that milled player more options, which is just as bad. Your job is to limit their options, not give them more. Every card is chosen by the deck builder, so milling them 10 isn't really gonna hurt when they have more cards in their deck that can be just as god if not better.
As for making them mill instead of letting them draw it, most decks are not drawing 10 cards a turn. If the cards you mill has the important card as the 10th card, congrats because that was most likely going to take 4-6 turns of drawing to get to it. Even worse if they could have tutored for it, because if a card is important enough to tutor for it is important enough to have a re-usable recursion spell.
Tutoring is important, sure, but if you are doing nothing but it can become a hindrance when used as a crutch. Chances are they will use their draw step to get what they need.
Now after you have hit them for 2 more damage and gotten your small beater, the milling has become a card advantage engine for your opponent. That is the worst case scenario as well as the reality of almost every game. You always look at the worst case scenario when evaluating, because if you look at the other swords or equipment you could be putting into the deck: their worst case scenario doesn't end up giving a player card advantage.
Best case scenario you are facing an Izzet deck with 0 recursion. Most likely that deck runs a Legendary Eldrazi, making your milling them moot. They don't "Lose" cards if eventually those cards are going to be shuffled in again. If anything they get to see what they won't be getting and plan accordingly.
Spage, you've been talking a lot about this card, but for reference: Have you actually used it in a deck for more than one or two matches?
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Quick answer: Yes I have. In standard both with and against, and in EDH, mostly against but also with. In standard it was actually useful, but Feast and Famine was still generally better. In EDH, those tokens rarely matter and the milling is either advantageous for my opponent or useless.
Here is a question.Choose 2 effects to put on a Sword. WHich of these effects would you like the most on a sword of protection?
Deal Damage to an opponent equal to the cards in opponents hand - Extra reach
Life gain for the amount of cards in your hand - Lifegain
Opponent Mills 10 cards - Can become dangerous if you are running a mill deck in a 100 card format
Get a Bear - A dude.
Draw a card - Card advantage
Deal 2 damage to a creature or player - Small creature Removal
Player discards a card - Minor Card advantage
Untap your lands - Broken Green mechanic of powerful interactions
Gain 3 life - Small bump in life
Get a creature card from your grave into your hand - Possible Card advantage
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Top Control: The only pure lockdown deck in Modern.
I did state that I think SoBaM is the worst of the five. My point is that the worst of a very powerful cycle isn't nearly as bad as people think.
Worst-case scenario mentality is just as dangerous as best-case scenario. The worst-case for SoFaF is they discard something like Jin-Gitaxis and are holding instant speed reanimation for it. Best-case scenario is always attacking because you assume you're opponent never has removal; this is bad. Worst-case is never attacking because you assume you're opponent always has removal; this is also bad. They should definitely be considered, but cards should largely be judged based on average-case scenario. If a card can win me 1% of games out of nowhere, that's a definite plus, but what I care about most is how it performs in a majority of games.
First though, let's look at the actual best and worst cases for SoBaM.
- The worst-case scenario would be a combo deck whose last missing piece is the 10th card in their deck, they're holding the correct type of recursion to get it, they had no way to tutor for it, no one had any answers, and someone would have had an answer when the combo deck drew it normally and the combo deck would have had no protection. In that scenario, you lose the game because of the sword.
- The best-case scenario would be a combo deck whose last missing piece is the 1st card in their deck, and they're not holding the correct type of recursion to get it, and they don't have a way to tutor for that recursion or enough mana to do it all, and no one had any answers. In that scenario, the sword stopped you from losing.
Both of these can happen, but it's not going to be often. The real measure of a card is the average-case, so what is it for SoBaM?
- You hit them and mill 10 cards. Over the course of the game they recur 2-5 of those cards while 5-8 of them remain in the graveyard effectively gone. That's a fair average case.
Now I want to address the downsides of SoBaM. First, it does not give the opponent card advantage, it might give them card selection. It doesn't cause Reanimate to pick up two creatures, it just gives them more choices as to which creature to pick up. It's the difference between "Scry 1" and "Draw 1". Scry is still good, but it's not as powerful as drawing.
The counter argument to this is "What if they have a way to pick up multiple cards from the grave, then they can get CA". This is true, but the result would be the same if you don't hit them with the sword and they have a spell to draw multiple cards. More decks have the ability to draw multiple cards at once than recur multiple cards at once.
As for the general idea that putting cards into an opponent's grave is always bad, due to cards such as Sun Titan, Reveillark, Volrath's Stronghold, Genesis, etc, every single card with the word "Destroy" on it has that weakness. You could make the argument that Damnation is a bad card because the opponent could just pick up those creatures.
No one would make that argument though, despite the fact that I'm sure many a Damantion has been followed by a recursion spell. This is because even if they do recur some or all of those creatures, you made them spend time, mana, and cards to do so; you gained an advantage. This is the same for SoBaM.
Yes, they may recur cards, but you're forcing them to spend time, mana, and resources to do it, you are getting an advantage.
Just to reiterate, I think SoBaM is the worst of the sword cycle. Personally I'd rank them:
SoFaI > SoFaF > SoLaS > SoWaP > SoBaM
The whole point of my argument is that "worst" needs to be taken in context. Mox Emerald is often considered the worst of the P9, but it's still insanely broken. SoBaM is the worst of the swords cycle, by a good bit, but it's still an incredibly strong cycle of equipment. I wouldn't add it to a deck that didn't already have the other four swords, but if your deck wants it you will not be disappointed.
Sometimes cards get far more praise than they deserve, and sometimes they get far more hate than they deserve. SoBaM is nowhere near the best cards out there, but it is a lot better than it ever gets credit for.
I did state that I think SoBaM is the worst of the five. My point is that the worst of a very powerful cycle isn't nearly as bad as people think.
Worst-case scenario mentality is just as dangerous as best-case scenario. The worst-case for SoFaF is they discard something like Jin-Gitaxis and are holding instant speed reanimation for it. Best-case scenario is always attacking because you assume you're opponent never has removal; this is bad. Worst-case is never attacking because you assume you're opponent always has removal; this is also bad. They should definitely be considered, but cards should largely be judged based on average-case scenario. If a card can win me 1% of games out of nowhere, that's a definite plus, but what I care about most is how it performs in a majority of games.
First though, let's look at the actual best and worst cases for SoBaM.
- The worst-case scenario would be a combo deck whose last missing piece is the 10th card in their deck, they're holding the correct type of recursion to get it, they had no way to tutor for it, no one had any answers, and someone would have had an answer when the combo deck drew it normally and the combo deck would have had no protection. In that scenario, you lose the game because of the sword.
- The best-case scenario would be a combo deck whose last missing piece is the 1st card in their deck, and they're not holding the correct type of recursion to get it, and they don't have a way to tutor for that recursion or enough mana to do it all, and no one had any answers. In that scenario, the sword stopped you from losing.
Both of these can happen, but it's not going to be often. The real measure of a card is the average-case, so what is it for SoBaM?
- You hit them and mill 10 cards. Over the course of the game they recur 2-5 of those cards while 5-8 of them remain in the graveyard effectively gone. That's a fair average case.
Now I want to address the downsides of SoBaM. First, it does not give the opponent card advantage, it might give them card selection. It doesn't cause Reanimate to pick up two creatures, it just gives them more choices as to which creature to pick up. It's the difference between "Scry 1" and "Draw 1". Scry is still good, but it's not as powerful as drawing.
The counter argument to this is "What if they have a way to pick up multiple cards from the grave, then they can get CA". This is true, but the result would be the same if you don't hit them with the sword and they have a spell to draw multiple cards. More decks have the ability to draw multiple cards at once than recur multiple cards at once.
As for the general idea that putting cards into an opponent's grave is always bad, due to cards such as Sun Titan, Reveillark, Volrath's Stronghold, Genesis, etc, every single card with the word "Destroy" on it has that weakness. You could make the argument that Damnation is a bad card because the opponent could just pick up those creatures.
No one would make that argument though, despite the fact that I'm sure many a Damantion has been followed by a recursion spell. This is because even if they do recur some or all of those creatures, you made them spend time, mana, and cards to do so; you gained an advantage. This is the same for SoBaM.
Yes, they may recur cards, but you're forcing them to spend time, mana, and resources to do it, you are getting an advantage.
Just to reiterate, I think SoBaM is the worst of the sword cycle. Personally I'd rank them:
SoFaI > SoFaF > SoLaS > SoWaP > SoBaM
The whole point of my argument is that "worst" needs to be taken in context. Mox Emerald is often considered the worst of the P9, but it's still insanely broken. SoBaM is the worst of the swords cycle, by a good bit, but it's still an incredibly strong cycle of equipment. I wouldn't add it to a deck that didn't already have the other four swords, but if your deck wants it you will not be disappointed.
Sometimes cards get far more praise than they deserve, and sometimes they get far more hate than they deserve. SoBaM is nowhere near the best cards out there, but it is a lot better than it ever gets credit for.
This is basically my feelings exactly. The only thing I would change is that I personally like SoFaF better than SoFaI because my decks all run a lot of card advantage, so the extra mana helps more than the extra card.
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So, as the worst one of 5, that puts it as the 7th to 10th equipment you would add into your deck. Which EDH decks run that many equipment cards? The Sword cycle is good, but as I said in my first post here: Umezawa's Jitte, Lightning Greaves, and arguably Skullclamp should be in your deck before that cycle of 5. If you have that many equipment cards, that is a lot less slots for answers and beaters, making your deck either a Voltron deck or a token maker deck. Even then, my token deck runs 5 equipment cards, none of which are the sword cycle because that would be just too many dead cards/wasted mana/eggs in one basket to have that may equipment cards.
If you have one of the 5, and you want to go for another one, choose the one that gives your colors the best boost from it's weakness.(And then go get the three equipment cards in my paragraph above to place in your deck)
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EDH decks don't generally have chaff; every card in there is one the deckbuilder wanted. I know I'd personally consider my deck to have a problem if I could name 10 cards I didn't care if I lost.
You don't build with chaff, but you do build with cards that have more value at different stages of the game. Late game, I rarely want to see more ramp spells, mana rocks, lands, etc. I don't need to place as much emphasis on setting up my mana base if I can cast everything I want to cast at that point in the game. That means all of the cards that do that are dead draws without some other way to make use of them. They aren't chaff in the sense of the entire game, but they can definitely be called that situationally.
As for getting a bomb out of it, they'd have gotten that anyway. If you mill them, they might reanimate a bomb. If you don't, they'll draw it, cast it, still have that reanimation spell for later, plus get to use the other 9 cards.
My choice of bomb was a specific one. I don't think I've ever played It That Betrays for mana. Dedicated reanimator decks run ways to get their threats into the yard, and Body and Mind does that for them. It's not the risk of letting them see a bomb that they would have seen otherwise, it's enabling a strategy that was going to spend a card doing what you just did for them, and reanimator decks are not the only ones that play heavily out of the yard.
The argument of "then they can just play all the stuff from their grave" assumes that decks have absurd amount of recursion in them, but recursion spells are finite. How many do you play in your average deck? 3? 5? 7? Probably not 10 or more unless you're a dedicated reanimator, which means some number of cards you wanted to play are effectively removed from the game. Even in colors with strong reanimation, like black, it's limited. They're probably not picking up their Phyrexian Arena, or their Demonic Tutor, or their Caged Sun, etc.
I don't care if they don't get to draw 10 cards off of a trigger, it's that they have their choice of those 10 with a single recursion spell. I also have no interest in taking a random 10 cards out of someone's deck. Maybe they're not picking up some artifact or enchantment that they wanted, but maybe that card was deeper down in the deck and I've essentially drawn them into it. Incremental mill isn't a reliable strategy, recursion or no. I don't play Raven Guild Master in decks where I can protect it and get it to connect, and that has the same effect (minus token) without any possibility of the opponent abusing it outside of extremely niche cards.
The other argument is they get access to cards they wouldn't have seen otherwise. Personally, I rarely see a deck patiently waiting to draw the cards it wants. EDH is "Tutor: the Gathering". If instead of being able to go Demonic Tutor -> Creature, they now have to go Demonic Tutor -> Reanimation Spell -> Creature, I just effectively 2 for 1'd them. Sure if they have a reanimation spell in hand they get the creature back, but that still reduces the effectiveness of the spell, giving one use of the creature instead of two. And if they don't have the spell, it delays them getting that creature until they find one, instead of being able to just cast it.
Chalk it up to meta differences, but I see a lot more recursion than I do tutoring. It's pretty commonly accepted that recursion is more valuable in this format than most of the others because of the singleton deck construction. If you're playing against opponents who are constantly tutoring for whatever their silver bullet is, than Body and Mind might be worthwhile. Toolbox decks tend to be a little softer to mill than the average deck.
Normally people fall in to the trap of only seeing best-case scenarios, but for some reason this card does the opposite; people only see the absolute worst possible situations, where every time you mill Mike+Trike and they have two reanimation spells in hand.
I've played with this sword a lot, versus decks that do run plenty of ways to return stuff from the grave. It hurts them a lot more than it helps. Give it a try, I think you'll be surprised.
I'm really not worried about turning on a combo, and I don't often see two card combos where one of them is bad on its own. I don't like this effect because it does nothing against decent decks. Like you said earlier, people don't build chaff into their decks. Most people aren't patiently sitting and waiting for their one bomb to show up. Taking a random 10 cards out of the deck isn't likely to cripple their ability to win, it's just going to make them use one of the other ~50 relevant cards in their deck to try and kill you. The reason I don't like Body and Mind isn't solely because of the occasional enabling of GY strategies, which already don't need the help, it's because it effectively has one ability rather than the two that the rest of the swords have. I don't view the token production as better than both of the abilities on any of the other swords. The protection is nice, but it's a rare situation where I need both of those colors rather than one or the other, which I can get from the other swords.
Body and Mind is still a powerful equipment, but I would rather run any of the other swords, Jitte, and a couple other equips before it, and I have yet to find the deck where I'm interested in running 6+ equips. I've tried Body and Mind many times, in decks that wanted the token, in decks that wanted the mill, in decks that just wanted a value equip, and it's never done anything for me that I didn't think another equip could do better. If it works for you, that's fantastic, but it's always lived up to my low expectations when I've run it.
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One point in favor of SoBaM is that it gives protection from the two best colors in EDH; Blue and Green. I think that part of the problem is that with the various forms of equipment tutoring available that if someone wants protection from those colors they can choose SoFaI or SoFaF which are considered by many (me included) to be the best two. I also think that people play the swords much more for their triggered abilities than for the protection the give.
BaM is the worst generally speaking, sure. It's still a staple and at times an all star in Lazav for me. I run all 5 swords, jitte, greaves, and fire shrieker (soon to be joined by masterwork of ingenuity and assault suit), it's a voltron deck with a low creature count but high creature quality. I've won by mill before but it's not my main goal, so what if I mill your Ulamog? You shuffle back and I start swinging with my hexproof Ulamog that's suited ul and dealing general damage.
I have at least one dedicated equipment deck, and my darling has another. Both run all five swords. The color protection is relevant no matter what, and chump blocking/sac fodder wolves are not bad. The mill is, in my experience, far more likely to hurt my opponent than help him. As others have said, recursion requires resources. I made them expend their resources to get a card that would have gotten eventually regardless.
Also, umm, I was able to punch through with my general for (generally speaking) massive damage. Kresh and Akroma (our equipment decks) tend to do that.
So though I don't run it everywhere, I don't dismiss it at all.
But if I have only a slot or two for a sword, well, I choose SoFaI and SoFaF, unless I am afraid of the white removal, which does happen. In which case SoLaS shows up.
1. Feast & Famine - both abilities are crazy good, and the colors are relevant for evasion and protection
2. Fire & Ice - minimal protection bonus but decent evasion. Both abilities are really good card advantage
3. War & Peace - good protection and evasion. The life gain/damage is sweet
4. Light & Shadow - useful effect but very deck dependent. Best protection colors though
5. Body & Mind - just meh all the way around IMO
I pretty much agree with this. Sometimes I rank Light and Shadow more than War and Peace...just depends on the deck. I play a lot of recursion. How ever for aggro War and Peace SMASH!
In my opinion though Feast and Famine should be the very first sword you spend money on or even get. If you run white and have an oppertunity to get it out soon enough you can lock games down especially in 1v1. Sometimes thats the only sword I throw in a deck just as a win con or as card advantage, even if it sticks around for only a turn or 2.
I only own Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Feast and Famine and I switch them around between my three decks. They're really mainly in there to allow me to get damage through to my opponents in my playgroup, a meta consisting of:
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
The usual argument is that it helps the people you hit with it more than it hurts them, but that's rarely the case. Sure, most EDH decks have some way to access the graveyard, but unless it's a dedicated graveyard deck, almost none have the ability to use every card in their grave, or even most.
They might reanimate a creature, or pick up a spell, but the other 9 cards you milled are often just out of the picture. As for the ones they do return, they've now gotten less uses out of them. Instead of casting that great creature, it eventually dying, then bringing it right back, they have to use reanimation to just get it once. Instead of getting two uses out of some powerful spell, they have to spend a card and extra mana just to get a single use.
For a long time I'd also been in line with the thought that SoBaM does more harm than good, but then I tried it out. It removes resources far more often than it grants them.
EDH Decks
BGGlissa, the TraitorGB
URTibor and LumiaRU
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticBUW
UBSygg, River CutthroatBU
RGXenagos, God of RevelsGR
UGVorel of the Hull CladeGU
GBSavra, Queen of the GolgariBG
URGMaelstrom WandererGRU
I wouldn't mind it so much if the "green" side of the sword was more relevant. A 2/2 token is much less worthwhile than, for example, untapping all your lands a la F&F. The best thing about that sword, by far, is the protections, and that's less against removal and more for unblockablity as U/G are pretty common colors. It's just not worth it, overall. The potential to help your opponents, even a little, is just the nail in the coffin for the card.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
This! The wolf tokens are great blockers and if left unchecked can turn scary fast. (Even kicked a rite of replication on solemn and started swinging for the fences? It's scary damage even outside the CA.)
Also people keep ragging on the mill for helping the opponent. Aside from it often hurting them a lot, it also can help you a lot. Run it in Lazav, Mimeoplasm, Chainer or any of 500 more decks with great reanimation spells. You don't need a mill deck to take advantage of it.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Run it AGAINST Lazav, Mimeoplasm, Chainer or any of 500 more decks with great reanimation spells. They don't need a mill deck to take advantage of it.
That's the issue.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
It gives you a small beater insignificant and it gives them more cards in their graveyard for them to play with, something every colour of every deck uses to varying degrees of effectiveness. Black better then most, red not so good as the others, but all of them can use their graveyard.
Other than that it gives you pro the 2 best colours, which can be useful if either colours were known for their point removal.
u/Anon_Amarth - Fun as a zero sum game: If my opponent is having none of it, then by extension I must be having all of it.
Current Top Control Decklist
Cockatrice: Spage
I think War and Peace is underrated by a lot of people. I'll play it as my only Sword from time to time, and frequently as one of two alongside Fire and Ice. The damage can add up really quickly and the lifegain is not insignificant. It's better than Feast and Famine in a deck that just wants to bring opponents to 0 as fast as possible.
EDH decks don't generally have chaff; every card in there is one the deckbuilder wanted. I know I'd personally consider my deck to have a problem if I could name 10 cards I didn't care if I lost.
As for getting a bomb out of it, they'd have gotten that anyway. If you mill them, they might reanimate a bomb. If you don't, they'll draw it, cast it, still have that reanimation spell for later, plus get to use the other 9 cards.
The argument of "then they can just play all the stuff from their grave" assumes that decks have absurd amount of recursion in them, but recursion spells are finite. How many do you play in your average deck? 3? 5? 7? Probably not 10 or more unless you're a dedicated reanimator, which means some number of cards you wanted to play are effectively removed from the game. Even in colors with strong reanimation, like black, it's limited. They're probably not picking up their Phyrexian Arena, or their Demonic Tutor, or their Caged Sun, etc.
The other argument is they get access to cards they wouldn't have seen otherwise. Personally, I rarely see a deck patiently waiting to draw the cards it wants. EDH is "Tutor: the Gathering". If instead of being able to go Demonic Tutor -> Creature, they now have to go Demonic Tutor -> Reanimation Spell -> Creature, I just effectively 2 for 1'd them. Sure if they have a reanimation spell in hand they get the creature back, but that still reduces the effectiveness of the spell, giving one use of the creature instead of two. And if they don't have the spell, it delays them getting that creature until they find one, instead of being able to just cast it.
Normally people fall in to the trap of only seeing best-case scenarios, but for some reason this card does the opposite; people only see the absolute worst possible situations, where every time you mill Mike+Trike and they have two reanimation spells in hand.
I've played with this sword a lot, versus decks that do run plenty of ways to return stuff from the grave. It hurts them a lot more than it helps. Give it a try, I think you'll be surprised.
EDH Decks
BGGlissa, the TraitorGB
URTibor and LumiaRU
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticBUW
UBSygg, River CutthroatBU
RGXenagos, God of RevelsGR
UGVorel of the Hull CladeGU
GBSavra, Queen of the GolgariBG
URGMaelstrom WandererGRU
The wolf at times helps me activate batallion for Tajic, Blade of the Legion. Sword of B and M has performed admittedly better than expected where I've used it.
This is faulty logic. For one thing most decks I run have reusable recursion like Life from the Loam, Volrath's stronghold, Ewit, Reveillark, Sun Titan. On top of that, there are cards that will then get those cards back if they need them. And Lastly there are the Legend Eldrazi in non recursive decks that make your milling moot unless you have Extracted if from their deck.
If they tutor for the reanimation, most of them cost less then the creature itself, basically making the creature cost less in general. The cards that don't give them this cheap tempo swing are the cards such as Genesis and Goblin welder, but they just gives that milled player more options, which is just as bad. Your job is to limit their options, not give them more. Every card is chosen by the deck builder, so milling them 10 isn't really gonna hurt when they have more cards in their deck that can be just as god if not better.
As for making them mill instead of letting them draw it, most decks are not drawing 10 cards a turn. If the cards you mill has the important card as the 10th card, congrats because that was most likely going to take 4-6 turns of drawing to get to it. Even worse if they could have tutored for it, because if a card is important enough to tutor for it is important enough to have a re-usable recursion spell.
Tutoring is important, sure, but if you are doing nothing but it can become a hindrance when used as a crutch. Chances are they will use their draw step to get what they need.
Now after you have hit them for 2 more damage and gotten your small beater, the milling has become a card advantage engine for your opponent. That is the worst case scenario as well as the reality of almost every game. You always look at the worst case scenario when evaluating, because if you look at the other swords or equipment you could be putting into the deck: their worst case scenario doesn't end up giving a player card advantage.
Best case scenario you are facing an Izzet deck with 0 recursion. Most likely that deck runs a Legendary Eldrazi, making your milling them moot. They don't "Lose" cards if eventually those cards are going to be shuffled in again. If anything they get to see what they won't be getting and plan accordingly.
Or that you have either Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void on the ground and active.
u/Anon_Amarth - Fun as a zero sum game: If my opponent is having none of it, then by extension I must be having all of it.
Current Top Control Decklist
Cockatrice: Spage
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Here is a question.Choose 2 effects to put on a Sword. WHich of these effects would you like the most on a sword of protection?
u/Anon_Amarth - Fun as a zero sum game: If my opponent is having none of it, then by extension I must be having all of it.
Current Top Control Decklist
Cockatrice: Spage
Worst-case scenario mentality is just as dangerous as best-case scenario. The worst-case for SoFaF is they discard something like Jin-Gitaxis and are holding instant speed reanimation for it. Best-case scenario is always attacking because you assume you're opponent never has removal; this is bad. Worst-case is never attacking because you assume you're opponent always has removal; this is also bad. They should definitely be considered, but cards should largely be judged based on average-case scenario. If a card can win me 1% of games out of nowhere, that's a definite plus, but what I care about most is how it performs in a majority of games.
First though, let's look at the actual best and worst cases for SoBaM.
- The worst-case scenario would be a combo deck whose last missing piece is the 10th card in their deck, they're holding the correct type of recursion to get it, they had no way to tutor for it, no one had any answers, and someone would have had an answer when the combo deck drew it normally and the combo deck would have had no protection. In that scenario, you lose the game because of the sword.
- The best-case scenario would be a combo deck whose last missing piece is the 1st card in their deck, and they're not holding the correct type of recursion to get it, and they don't have a way to tutor for that recursion or enough mana to do it all, and no one had any answers. In that scenario, the sword stopped you from losing.
Both of these can happen, but it's not going to be often. The real measure of a card is the average-case, so what is it for SoBaM?
- You hit them and mill 10 cards. Over the course of the game they recur 2-5 of those cards while 5-8 of them remain in the graveyard effectively gone. That's a fair average case.
Now I want to address the downsides of SoBaM. First, it does not give the opponent card advantage, it might give them card selection. It doesn't cause Reanimate to pick up two creatures, it just gives them more choices as to which creature to pick up. It's the difference between "Scry 1" and "Draw 1". Scry is still good, but it's not as powerful as drawing.
The counter argument to this is "What if they have a way to pick up multiple cards from the grave, then they can get CA". This is true, but the result would be the same if you don't hit them with the sword and they have a spell to draw multiple cards. More decks have the ability to draw multiple cards at once than recur multiple cards at once.
As for the general idea that putting cards into an opponent's grave is always bad, due to cards such as Sun Titan, Reveillark, Volrath's Stronghold, Genesis, etc, every single card with the word "Destroy" on it has that weakness. You could make the argument that Damnation is a bad card because the opponent could just pick up those creatures.
No one would make that argument though, despite the fact that I'm sure many a Damantion has been followed by a recursion spell. This is because even if they do recur some or all of those creatures, you made them spend time, mana, and cards to do so; you gained an advantage. This is the same for SoBaM.
Yes, they may recur cards, but you're forcing them to spend time, mana, and resources to do it, you are getting an advantage.
Just to reiterate, I think SoBaM is the worst of the sword cycle. Personally I'd rank them:
SoFaI > SoFaF > SoLaS > SoWaP > SoBaM
The whole point of my argument is that "worst" needs to be taken in context. Mox Emerald is often considered the worst of the P9, but it's still insanely broken. SoBaM is the worst of the swords cycle, by a good bit, but it's still an incredibly strong cycle of equipment. I wouldn't add it to a deck that didn't already have the other four swords, but if your deck wants it you will not be disappointed.
Sometimes cards get far more praise than they deserve, and sometimes they get far more hate than they deserve. SoBaM is nowhere near the best cards out there, but it is a lot better than it ever gets credit for.
EDH Decks
BGGlissa, the TraitorGB
URTibor and LumiaRU
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticBUW
UBSygg, River CutthroatBU
RGXenagos, God of RevelsGR
UGVorel of the Hull CladeGU
GBSavra, Queen of the GolgariBG
URGMaelstrom WandererGRU
This is basically my feelings exactly. The only thing I would change is that I personally like SoFaF better than SoFaI because my decks all run a lot of card advantage, so the extra mana helps more than the extra card.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
If you have one of the 5, and you want to go for another one, choose the one that gives your colors the best boost from it's weakness.(And then go get the three equipment cards in my paragraph above to place in your deck)
u/Anon_Amarth - Fun as a zero sum game: If my opponent is having none of it, then by extension I must be having all of it.
Current Top Control Decklist
Cockatrice: Spage
My choice of bomb was a specific one. I don't think I've ever played It That Betrays for mana. Dedicated reanimator decks run ways to get their threats into the yard, and Body and Mind does that for them. It's not the risk of letting them see a bomb that they would have seen otherwise, it's enabling a strategy that was going to spend a card doing what you just did for them, and reanimator decks are not the only ones that play heavily out of the yard.
I don't care if they don't get to draw 10 cards off of a trigger, it's that they have their choice of those 10 with a single recursion spell. I also have no interest in taking a random 10 cards out of someone's deck. Maybe they're not picking up some artifact or enchantment that they wanted, but maybe that card was deeper down in the deck and I've essentially drawn them into it. Incremental mill isn't a reliable strategy, recursion or no. I don't play Raven Guild Master in decks where I can protect it and get it to connect, and that has the same effect (minus token) without any possibility of the opponent abusing it outside of extremely niche cards.
Chalk it up to meta differences, but I see a lot more recursion than I do tutoring. It's pretty commonly accepted that recursion is more valuable in this format than most of the others because of the singleton deck construction. If you're playing against opponents who are constantly tutoring for whatever their silver bullet is, than Body and Mind might be worthwhile. Toolbox decks tend to be a little softer to mill than the average deck.
I'm really not worried about turning on a combo, and I don't often see two card combos where one of them is bad on its own. I don't like this effect because it does nothing against decent decks. Like you said earlier, people don't build chaff into their decks. Most people aren't patiently sitting and waiting for their one bomb to show up. Taking a random 10 cards out of the deck isn't likely to cripple their ability to win, it's just going to make them use one of the other ~50 relevant cards in their deck to try and kill you. The reason I don't like Body and Mind isn't solely because of the occasional enabling of GY strategies, which already don't need the help, it's because it effectively has one ability rather than the two that the rest of the swords have. I don't view the token production as better than both of the abilities on any of the other swords. The protection is nice, but it's a rare situation where I need both of those colors rather than one or the other, which I can get from the other swords.
Body and Mind is still a powerful equipment, but I would rather run any of the other swords, Jitte, and a couple other equips before it, and I have yet to find the deck where I'm interested in running 6+ equips. I've tried Body and Mind many times, in decks that wanted the token, in decks that wanted the mill, in decks that just wanted a value equip, and it's never done anything for me that I didn't think another equip could do better. If it works for you, that's fantastic, but it's always lived up to my low expectations when I've run it.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Also, umm, I was able to punch through with my general for (generally speaking) massive damage. Kresh and Akroma (our equipment decks) tend to do that.
So though I don't run it everywhere, I don't dismiss it at all.
But if I have only a slot or two for a sword, well, I choose SoFaI and SoFaF, unless I am afraid of the white removal, which does happen. In which case SoLaS shows up.
I pretty much agree with this. Sometimes I rank Light and Shadow more than War and Peace...just depends on the deck. I play a lot of recursion. How ever for aggro War and Peace SMASH!
In my opinion though Feast and Famine should be the very first sword you spend money on or even get. If you run white and have an oppertunity to get it out soon enough you can lock games down especially in 1v1. Sometimes thats the only sword I throw in a deck just as a win con or as card advantage, even if it sticks around for only a turn or 2.
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls
Doran, the Siege Tower
Zedruu the Greathearted
and Zurgo Helmsmasher
I just run the ones that do the most work in my meta. I'm currently debating picking up a Sword of War and Peace though.
Kresh the Bloodbraided-Jund Aggro
Karador, Ghost Chieftain-Abzan Midrange
Kangee, Aerie Keeper-Bird Tribal
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death-Warrior Tribal
Sydri, Galvanic Genius-Gepetto's Combo Workshop
Melek, Izzet Paragon-Izzet Mad Science
Omnath, Locus of Rage-Land/Elemental Tribal
Avacyn, Angel of Hope-The Church of Avacyn (Innistrad Flavor)
Brion Stoutarm
Daxos of Meletis
Varolz, the Scar-Striped
Narset, Enlightened Master
Damia, Sage of Stone
Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Dakkon Blackblade
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Mayael the Anima
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Gaddock Teeg
Rhys the Redeemed