Non-land is not really a big concern. Sure, it can't hit a maze or a mine. But how often did you use vindicate for that anyway. Also, in a multiplayer format, stuff like this is too valuable to set 1 player 1 land back (like it is sometimes used in other formats).
It's instant-speed, it EXILES, it can be sunforgered (not relevant to you, but). It EXLES. You forgot to mention the best part of the card too. IMO, if spot removal doesn't exile that's a strike against it because of how much recursion runs around in EDH.
I'd say run it or wait and see if the price drops if that's a problem - because it is a great card. Also, I'd consider path in you current deck for sure, and condemn if you have room.
Utter End is probably the strongest removal of any of the five options. I'll admit, the extra mana is a bit iffy, but gaining instant speed is HUGE. It'll stop almost any combo dead in it's tracks, it exiles, and it can be used on any nonland permanent. This spell is awesome.
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Kind of off topic, but Swords but not Path? If I put in one, I generally always include the other.
For me, it's an easy swap for Vindicate. I just really dislike sorcery speed spot removal that doesn't come attached to a body. Unless you're playing a very tuned deck in a strong meta, the difference between 3 CMC and 4 CMC is not that big of a deal. I'd totally pay the extra 1 and lose out on hitting lands for instant speed exile.
Kind of off topic, but Swords but not Path? If I put in one, I generally always include the other.
I've had a single deck where I only had Swords, and that was because it would tutor Sword with Sunforger, and then tuck Swords onto the bottom of the deck with Mistveil Plains (or similar). I didn't need two.
Yeah path is great, and I probably should have listed all the good removal. So with path and oblation in the mix where does it fit? Looks like everybody values utter end highly.
I'm also trying to figue out what to cut for this in Oloro...I may end up cutting Gilded Drake (which I basically use as removal) instead of one of my traditional removal cards.
I also need to find room for Council's Judgment. That might go in for Into the Roil but I love that to reset Snappy when I don't need it for opponents...
IMHO, the most relevant removal is listed below in my preferential order of most to least valueable. Things to consider that may change the order of the list include: your need to stop things at instant speed, your ability to cast creatures as though they had flash, the likeliness of your meta to remove your O-ring effects, and the amount/type of other sweepers you have in the deck. If you already run 4-6 creature wipes, things that hit non creatures become that much more valuable. All said and done in my B/W decks I run the top 5 as mandatory.
STP
Path to Exile
Utter End
Council's Judgment
Return to Dust
Vindicate
Oblivion Ring
Banishing Light
Oblation (other people value this card much higher as removal than it should be. I do not even consider this as part of a removal package as its primary function is to protect your own goodies and then tutor for them again later.)
Journey to Nowhere
Oust
Condemn (suffers from fauna shaman effect)
Banisher priest
Oblation (other people value this card much higher as removal than it should be. I do not even consider this as part of a removal package as its primary function is to protect your own goodies and then tutor for them again later.)
I'm actually thinking about cutting this as removal. I find that more often than not I use it to put Snappy back in my deck.
Though using it on your Gilded Drake that someone else controls is freaking awesome.
How prevalent are Theros Gods in your meta? If they are common and annoying *cough* *cough* Purphoros *cough* then I'd drop Vindicate, if not then you should probably drop Dust.
The more I think about it I really would like to just add Utter End and keep everything else, find another cut elsewhere. Damn Esper has such amazing removal now (and honestly its all Orzhov besides Supreme Verdict).
Non-land is not really a big concern. Sure, it can't hit a maze or a mine. But how often did you use vindicate for that anyway. Also, in a multiplayer format, stuff like this is too valuable to set 1 player 1 land back (like it is sometimes used in other formats).
Utter End is a catch-all, but it's (relatively) expensive. If you know what permanent type you have the most trouble with, you can probably find a better option. That being said, it probably ranks above Return to Dust (at least in my opinion) although both are good.
I doubt we will see any Utter End in our meta. Vindicate already doesn't see much play and it hits lands...which is a huge strike against UE.
In a slower group of people it might see some consistent play though.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
If I had to rank Utter End amongst efficient WB removal, I suppose it'd be...
1. Swords to Plowshares
2. Path to Exile
3. Oblation
4. Utter End
5. Vindicate
4 and 5 are almost interchangeable for me, though, give that one mana less is very nice, as is the ability to hit a Cabal Coffers or Reliquary Tower.
Return to Dust would have been a solid number 5 behind Vindicate before Utter End came along. The ability to hit up to two artifacts/enchantments is great, but the versatility of Utter End just interests me much more.
I'm not convinced that Oblation is better than Utter End given the card disadvantage. Yes, putting a commander in the library is awesome, but letting an opponent draw two isn't except politically.
I'm not convinced that Oblation is better than Utter End given the card disadvantage. Yes, putting a commander in the library is awesome, but letting an opponent draw two isn't except politically.
It also sidesteps graveyard strategies, which are common, and in desperate situations you can Oblation your own permanent, getting the card draw yourself.
Generally speaking I would certainly play it over Vindicate. As gaining instant speed and EXILE are huge upgrades that easily offset the extra mana and inability to hit lands in most decks. This is especially true in my area where the Theros Gods are popular and Maze of Ith is a rare sight.
I actually prefer Vindicate in most cases. I have used 4 mana removal before and found it slow an cumbersome in many situations. Instant speed helps for sure, but I still have many 4 mana instant speed removals that go unused due to mana cost.
Council's Judgment I have never used, but I would probably cut it for Utter End because I don't really like it on paper.
Do you play 1v1? I play multiplayer and my friends would just beat my vote and all vote for the same, relatively benign card for Council's Judgment to kill. Unless you happen to choose something of Player #2's that Player #3 doesn't like either, but choosing something a second player needs to get behind adds a restriction of your potential targets.
I admit I haven't playtested Judgment extensively, but requiring the support of at least one additional player on that thing you want dead seems like it would occasionally whiff, which is a no-no to me.
Swords>Utter End>Return to Dust>Council's Judgment>Vindicate. I consider instant speed to be crucial when considering removal. I could see running council's judgment as a utility/political card but I would never replace instant speed removal with it. This is my personal preference as I like to play responsively. I think Vindicate is overrated in this format.
Would you switch Return to Dust to Utter End ? Need to find a room for this card
I don't think I've had a white deck that didn't include Return to Dust. Being able to exile two artifacts/enchantments can be huge. I personally wouldn't cut the Return to Dust.
Run all three. Vindicate is the most versatile, Utter end is a side-grade. I've had good experiences with Judgement, it can't hit your stuff, and most people can agree on what to exile.
only really considering Dust.
where does this new card rank with everyone? its great removal at instant speed, but non land and 4 cost are a concern.
It's instant-speed, it EXILES, it can be sunforgered (not relevant to you, but). It EXLES. You forgot to mention the best part of the card too. IMO, if spot removal doesn't exile that's a strike against it because of how much recursion runs around in EDH.
I'd say run it or wait and see if the price drops if that's a problem - because it is a great card. Also, I'd consider path in you current deck for sure, and condemn if you have room.
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Currently Piloting:
EDH
BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer)
WBRKaalia of The Vast
URGRiku of Two Reflections
WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius
UBRamirez DePietro
GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Modern
UG Infect
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For me, it's an easy swap for Vindicate. I just really dislike sorcery speed spot removal that doesn't come attached to a body. Unless you're playing a very tuned deck in a strong meta, the difference between 3 CMC and 4 CMC is not that big of a deal. I'd totally pay the extra 1 and lose out on hitting lands for instant speed exile.
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STP is too damned efficient, and RTD can 2 for 1.
I also need to find room for Council's Judgment. That might go in for Into the Roil but I love that to reset Snappy when I don't need it for opponents...
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
STP
Path to Exile
Utter End
Council's Judgment
Return to Dust
Vindicate
Oblivion Ring
Banishing Light
Oblation (other people value this card much higher as removal than it should be. I do not even consider this as part of a removal package as its primary function is to protect your own goodies and then tutor for them again later.)
Journey to Nowhere
Oust
Condemn (suffers from fauna shaman effect)
Banisher priest
Cheers and Happy Crafting!
BCao Cao, Lord of Wei - Black Summer
WIsamaru, Hound of Konda - Armored K9 Unit
RGRadha, Heir to Keld - Land Destruction
UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV - Classic U/W Control
Multiplayer / Casual EDH Decks:
BAnowon, the Ruin Sage - Tribal Vampires
GEzuri, Renegade Leader - Tribal Elves
RKrenko, Mob Boss - Tribal Goblins
WLinvala, Keeper of Silence - Tribal Angels
WOdric, Master Tactician - Tribal Humans
BGSapling of Colfenor - Tribal Treefolk & Friends
BUGrimgrin, Corpse-Born - Tribal Zombies
BROlivia Voldaren - Rakdos Hate
BGSkullbriar, the Walking Grave
RGWUril, the Miststalker -Tribal Enchantments
BUWSen Triplets - I Take, You Lose.
BUWSharuum the Hegemon - Brown Bordered Power
BGWGhave, Guru of Spores - Counters & Tokens
UGWRafiq of the Many - Political Bant Control
URGAnimar, Soul of Elements - ETB Tricks & Beatdown
RBUNekusar, the Mindrazer - Cards are bad for you, Mmkay
RBWKaalia of the Vast - Demon's, Dragon's, & Derpity-Derp
RGWUBSliver Overlord - Tribal Slivers
I'm actually thinking about cutting this as removal. I find that more often than not I use it to put Snappy back in my deck.
Though using it on your Gilded Drake that someone else controls is freaking awesome.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Return to Dust is a champ.
GMasumaro, First to KillG
......meow
In a world with Cabal Coffers and Gaea's Cradle, it can matter.
Utter End is a catch-all, but it's (relatively) expensive. If you know what permanent type you have the most trouble with, you can probably find a better option. That being said, it probably ranks above Return to Dust (at least in my opinion) although both are good.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
In a slower group of people it might see some consistent play though.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
1. Swords to Plowshares
2. Path to Exile
3. Oblation
4. Utter End
5. Vindicate
4 and 5 are almost interchangeable for me, though, give that one mana less is very nice, as is the ability to hit a Cabal Coffers or Reliquary Tower.
Return to Dust would have been a solid number 5 behind Vindicate before Utter End came along. The ability to hit up to two artifacts/enchantments is great, but the versatility of Utter End just interests me much more.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Council's Judgment I have never used, but I would probably cut it for Utter End because I don't really like it on paper.
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
I admit I haven't playtested Judgment extensively, but requiring the support of at least one additional player on that thing you want dead seems like it would occasionally whiff, which is a no-no to me.
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Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
[Semi-Competitive] GWUB "NO" GWUB 89%
Thrasios and Tymna aggro-control voltron-combo
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