The original idea behind revealing your General at the beginning of the game was mostly for the Legend rule. No two players could play with the same General. There were a limited number of possible Generals, and being stuck in a game where someone cast their version of Vaevictis Asmadi completely locked you out of ever casting your copy. It had the potential to create massive "unfun" states. So the rule was implemented to have all Generals revealed at the beginning of the game, and giving you the opportunity to swap to another General or another deck. Many decks were built with an alternate General as part of the 99 just for these circumstances.
The change to the Legend rule has created an interesting opportunity.
What if the Generals were also not revealed until they were cast? Magic has always been about a bit of mystery, a bit of metagaming, a bit of intrigue. What if you didn't know what your opponents were playing during those first few turns?
The problem:
What potential problem could this cause? Command Tower comes to mind. If you don't know someone's color identity, could they use that to cheat? I don't think so and here's why. There is still a rule in Commander about deck building restrictions. At the end of the game, all Commanders that haven't been revealed would be revealed thus confirming everyone's color identity. Besides, if you are playing the whole game and never casting your Commander, then there is nothing stopping you from using a 5-color General anyway. Deckbuilding rules are still present and still place appropriate restrictions on cards in your deck. The only corner case where an unknown General's color identity could potentially allow a cheating situation is very narrow. Example: A mono-blue player uses cards such as Bribery and Acquire and pulls off an early steal of something that has an off-color activation cost that is too powerful to overlook for their particular board state. I don't know, maybe something like Spiritmonger and then use things like Command Tower or Gemstone Mine or Vivid lands to activate the off-color abilities. They find that revealing their General could potentially out them as a cheater, and therefore never cast their General. At the end of the game, their cheating nature would be revealed, and the format has ways of dealing with cheating.
Other than this minor corner case, I don't see any negative impact to keeping Generals hidden until they are revealed during the course of the game. Once a General is revealed, it remains revealed.
This would allow the first turns of a game to actually be interesting. The first 2 or 3 turns of a game, nobody really pays attention to anyway. Land, go. Land, go. Fetchland, crack, go. Land, Sol Ring, go. Etc. Having a hidden General means everyone is paying attention to what colors of lands you are dropping and trying to establish what type of deck you are playing.
WHICH IS EXACTLY LIKE EVERY OTHER FORMAT OF MTG.
My point is that if EDH was being created today with today's Legend rule and today's amount of Generals available, I fully believe the General would be hidden from the start of the game. There would be no reason to have it revealed early and it would create interesting game play early on, and it would mirror every other format.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
After the first game, there is literally no reason to have this rule in place. In a tourney or something sure. But in a playgroup/FNM type setting, how often do you see someone and not instantly know whom their commander is? In my playgroup at least, I would be the only player to benefit from this, as I am the only one who shows up with a different commander each week.
If there is ever a "Commander Sideboard", where you have three Commanders you can swap between in between rounds at a tourney, I could see a very useful reason for having this, but as the rules are now it's not really worth the change.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
There really is no reason for this to exist. And as the only thing it would do is increase the potential for cheating this gets a big NO stamp in my book.
I am a little confused. How long ago did you play magic?
The original idea behind revealing your General at the beginning of the game was mostly for the Legend rule. No two players could play with the same General. There were a limited number of possible Generals, and being stuck in a game where someone cast their version of Vaevictis Asmadi completely locked you out of ever casting your copy.
You are wrong, YEARS ago that was the case, but not for the life span of EDH. The legend rule was that if two legendary creatures with the same name are on the field, they both die. That in no way locks you out of casting your general, just makes it harder to keep yours on the field since you will crack them, then he will crack them. Basically you both are not using your general for long periods of time. Actually back then the hidden rule would have been nice as they cast their general and then you cast yours. If you play a deck like my mimeoplasm, the general is not even needed. But it was a good kill spell.
Standard
>implying Modern
>implying Legacy UWMiracles/Countertop EDH UUUMemnarch, Steal your grillUUU RWUZedruu, Queen of ChaosRWU GWUBRReaper KingGWUBR My Trades
The original idea behind revealing your General at the beginning of the game was mostly for the Legend rule. No two players could play with the same General. There were a limited number of possible Generals, and being stuck in a game where someone cast their version of Vaevictis Asmadi completely locked you out of ever casting your copy. It had the potential to create massive "unfun" states. So the rule was implemented to have all Generals revealed at the beginning of the game, and giving you the opportunity to swap to another General or another deck. Many decks were built with an alternate General as part of the 99 just for these circumstances.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is accurate.
I started playing EDH back in 2009, so tell me if you're talking about rules that existed prior to that. Back then there was a separate "League Rule" and "Open Play Rule." In the League Rule, nobody could play the same general. It was a first come first serve, to claiming a general, but everybody would still know who was playing what. In the Open Play Rule, multiple people could play the same general, but generals also weren't subject to the legend rule. So if someone else played a Vaevictis Asmadi in their 99 and I played Vaevictis Asmadi as my general and they both came into play, the non general version would go to the graveyard, but the general version would stay.
I think later on in 2009, they ditched the League Rule and made it so generals *were* subject to the legend rule. However, two people could still play the same general and people could still use someone else's general in the 99. Then I don't believe that rule was changed until the actual legend rule was changed. So the only time two people weren't allowed to use the same general was when playing the optional League rules in early 2009 and back.
It's a fun varient idea but it creates to many issues with color identity. If you have no idea who their commander is you can't tell if they are playing legal cards or not.
I actually like this.
It would also open up the option of just removing what color you could produce. Command Tower would be the only "problematic" thing.
I like having my general out, having my dices on it that represents his/her/its lifetotal, it almost feels like im having an companion with me through out the game.
It's quite interesting to see which general they'll be using, it can build up hype if someone brings out a general like Jeska, Warrior Adept , Telim'Tor and maybe Iwamori of the Open Fist?
I actually like this.
It would also open up the option of just removing what color you could produce. Command Tower would be the only "problematic" thing.
What if everyone just starts asking for deck checks before each game just to make sure you fit the color identity rules?
I am a little confused. How long ago did you play magic?
The original idea behind revealing your General at the beginning of the game was mostly for the Legend rule. No two players could play with the same General. There were a limited number of possible Generals, and being stuck in a game where someone cast their version of Vaevictis Asmadi completely locked you out of ever casting your copy.
You are wrong, YEARS ago that was the case, but not for the life span of EDH. The legend rule was that if two legendary creatures with the same name are on the field, they both die. That in no way locks you out of casting your general, just makes it harder to keep yours on the field since you will crack them, then he will crack them. Basically you both are not using your general for long periods of time. Actually back then the hidden rule would have been nice as they cast their general and then you cast yours. If you play a deck like my mimeoplasm, the general is not even needed. But it was a good kill spell.
Correct. Basically, neither player could play their General, or the 2nd one played was essentially "kill that one specific guy's General". You stalemated since neither of you would get any benefit out of playing your General.
PS: I've been playing since practically Day 1. Started MtG in 1996 and EDH shortly after it became known. Remember, this was before the Internet made information as readily available, so things spread at a more organic rate.
Well, color identity rules are defined by the commander. If we don't know who the commander is because the C-Zone is hidden we have no idea if a deck is legal as it's played.
So, overly anal players and sneaky players looking for information will ask for deck checks. To make sure the deck is legal and to find out who the commander is.
Basically my point is that color identity rules would have to be completely rewritten to make a hidden command zone work.
That seems "problematic" to me.
I like the theory of the hidden C-Zone but it might be more of a headache then is worth to implement.
Once the Commander becomes known, any information regarding their questionable card choices or deck legality will become known. If they choose never to reveal their Commander, then there is no reason to not just play a 5-color Commander in that slot.
Cheating has its own already established box of rules. Cheating can come in many forms, but mostly is group-regulated.
You're overlooking a major issue with this. Current rules place Planeswalker emblems in the Command Zone. So if you're playing in a game with a planeswalker-heavy deck, you're creating a situation where on-board effects are being generated by hidden game items. This is also true for things like Oloro as mentioned by rockondon.
Personally, I find it cleaner to keep generals in the Zone revealed.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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If an Oloro player sits down to the table and gains 2 life during their upkeep they have revealed their general is Oloro. In such a meta that player would be at a disadvantage from their first turn which adequately balances the power of said general.
As for the PW emblems they appear from effects on the battlefield and would be placed in the CZ face up - nothing hidden there. Another non-issue.
There will be issues with unknown players trying to cheat, but when and if they win with out of color mana - well flip the general at the end and reveal them for the huckster they are.
It's an interesting variant and one I will explore with my playgroup, but I do see how it would be difficult to have it written into the game rules.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
I am a little confused. How long ago did you play magic?
The original idea behind revealing your General at the beginning of the game was mostly for the Legend rule. No two players could play with the same General. There were a limited number of possible Generals, and being stuck in a game where someone cast their version of Vaevictis Asmadi completely locked you out of ever casting your copy.
You are wrong, YEARS ago that was the case, but not for the life span of EDH. The legend rule was that if two legendary creatures with the same name are on the field, they both die. That in no way locks you out of casting your general, just makes it harder to keep yours on the field since you will crack them, then he will crack them. Basically you both are not using your general for long periods of time. Actually back then the hidden rule would have been nice as they cast their general and then you cast yours. If you play a deck like my mimeoplasm, the general is not even needed. But it was a good kill spell.
Correct. Basically, neither player could play their General, or the 2nd one played was essentially "kill that one specific guy's General". You stalemated since neither of you would get any benefit out of playing your General.
PS: I've been playing since practically Day 1. Started MtG in 1996 and EDH shortly after it became known. Remember, this was before the Internet made information as readily available, so things spread at a more organic rate.
The original Legend rule was "first one out wins". Any legend that arrives on the battlefield when one already exists is immediately buried. If two of the same legend enter the battlefield at the same time both are binned. This is in direct contrast with the World rule where the last Enchant World is the one that survives.
Then when they did Champions of Kamigawa they changed the Legend rule to the "legends as removal" rule. This was to make Champions block not just a race to see who gets Bomb legend #6 out first.
But the problem I see with Oloro is that if you ran an Esper deck and you just gained two life every turn you could technically be playing a different general and cheating. And the fact that there are color identity problems with this if people cheat.
However, I think I have a solution that might work: everyone has to reveal their general when the game ends. Just like morph creatures you didn't use.
I like this idea, most of the problems are solved either by community regulation, or by deck building restrictions. The only case for something like Command Tower acting oddly, or unfairly, is the case you describe, as one cannot have any cards they need to cast outside of such a color identity.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
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The original idea behind revealing your General at the beginning of the game was mostly for the Legend rule. No two players could play with the same General. There were a limited number of possible Generals, and being stuck in a game where someone cast their version of Vaevictis Asmadi completely locked you out of ever casting your copy. It had the potential to create massive "unfun" states. So the rule was implemented to have all Generals revealed at the beginning of the game, and giving you the opportunity to swap to another General or another deck. Many decks were built with an alternate General as part of the 99 just for these circumstances.
The change to the Legend rule has created an interesting opportunity.
What if the Generals were also not revealed until they were cast? Magic has always been about a bit of mystery, a bit of metagaming, a bit of intrigue. What if you didn't know what your opponents were playing during those first few turns?
The problem:
What potential problem could this cause? Command Tower comes to mind. If you don't know someone's color identity, could they use that to cheat? I don't think so and here's why. There is still a rule in Commander about deck building restrictions. At the end of the game, all Commanders that haven't been revealed would be revealed thus confirming everyone's color identity. Besides, if you are playing the whole game and never casting your Commander, then there is nothing stopping you from using a 5-color General anyway. Deckbuilding rules are still present and still place appropriate restrictions on cards in your deck. The only corner case where an unknown General's color identity could potentially allow a cheating situation is very narrow. Example: A mono-blue player uses cards such as Bribery and Acquire and pulls off an early steal of something that has an off-color activation cost that is too powerful to overlook for their particular board state. I don't know, maybe something like Spiritmonger and then use things like Command Tower or Gemstone Mine or Vivid lands to activate the off-color abilities. They find that revealing their General could potentially out them as a cheater, and therefore never cast their General. At the end of the game, their cheating nature would be revealed, and the format has ways of dealing with cheating.
Other than this minor corner case, I don't see any negative impact to keeping Generals hidden until they are revealed during the course of the game. Once a General is revealed, it remains revealed.
This would allow the first turns of a game to actually be interesting. The first 2 or 3 turns of a game, nobody really pays attention to anyway. Land, go. Land, go. Fetchland, crack, go. Land, Sol Ring, go. Etc. Having a hidden General means everyone is paying attention to what colors of lands you are dropping and trying to establish what type of deck you are playing.
WHICH IS EXACTLY LIKE EVERY OTHER FORMAT OF MTG.
My point is that if EDH was being created today with today's Legend rule and today's amount of Generals available, I fully believe the General would be hidden from the start of the game. There would be no reason to have it revealed early and it would create interesting game play early on, and it would mirror every other format.
Very, very interesting. Going to follow this thread and see what the discussion (de)evolves into.
After the first game, there is literally no reason to have this rule in place. In a tourney or something sure. But in a playgroup/FNM type setting, how often do you see someone and not instantly know whom their commander is? In my playgroup at least, I would be the only player to benefit from this, as I am the only one who shows up with a different commander each week.
If there is ever a "Commander Sideboard", where you have three Commanders you can swap between in between rounds at a tourney, I could see a very useful reason for having this, but as the rules are now it's not really worth the change.
You are wrong, YEARS ago that was the case, but not for the life span of EDH. The legend rule was that if two legendary creatures with the same name are on the field, they both die. That in no way locks you out of casting your general, just makes it harder to keep yours on the field since you will crack them, then he will crack them. Basically you both are not using your general for long periods of time. Actually back then the hidden rule would have been nice as they cast their general and then you cast yours. If you play a deck like my mimeoplasm, the general is not even needed. But it was a good kill spell.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
>implying
Modern
>implying
Legacy
UWMiracles/Countertop
EDH
UUUMemnarch, Steal your grillUUU
RWUZedruu, Queen of ChaosRWU
GWUBRReaper KingGWUBR
My Trades
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is accurate.
I started playing EDH back in 2009, so tell me if you're talking about rules that existed prior to that. Back then there was a separate "League Rule" and "Open Play Rule." In the League Rule, nobody could play the same general. It was a first come first serve, to claiming a general, but everybody would still know who was playing what. In the Open Play Rule, multiple people could play the same general, but generals also weren't subject to the legend rule. So if someone else played a Vaevictis Asmadi in their 99 and I played Vaevictis Asmadi as my general and they both came into play, the non general version would go to the graveyard, but the general version would stay.
I think later on in 2009, they ditched the League Rule and made it so generals *were* subject to the legend rule. However, two people could still play the same general and people could still use someone else's general in the 99. Then I don't believe that rule was changed until the actual legend rule was changed. So the only time two people weren't allowed to use the same general was when playing the optional League rules in early 2009 and back.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
It would also open up the option of just removing what color you could produce.
Command Tower would be the only "problematic" thing.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
It's quite interesting to see which general they'll be using, it can build up hype if someone brings out a general like Jeska, Warrior Adept , Telim'Tor and maybe Iwamori of the Open Fist?
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
What if everyone just starts asking for deck checks before each game just to make sure you fit the color identity rules?
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Is that sarcasm?
If so, I don't really follow.
?
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Correct. Basically, neither player could play their General, or the 2nd one played was essentially "kill that one specific guy's General". You stalemated since neither of you would get any benefit out of playing your General.
PS: I've been playing since practically Day 1. Started MtG in 1996 and EDH shortly after it became known. Remember, this was before the Internet made information as readily available, so things spread at a more organic rate.
Well, color identity rules are defined by the commander. If we don't know who the commander is because the C-Zone is hidden we have no idea if a deck is legal as it's played.
So, overly anal players and sneaky players looking for information will ask for deck checks. To make sure the deck is legal and to find out who the commander is.
Basically my point is that color identity rules would have to be completely rewritten to make a hidden command zone work.
That seems "problematic" to me.
I like the theory of the hidden C-Zone but it might be more of a headache then is worth to implement.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Once the Commander becomes known, any information regarding their questionable card choices or deck legality will become known. If they choose never to reveal their Commander, then there is no reason to not just play a 5-color Commander in that slot.
Cheating has its own already established box of rules. Cheating can come in many forms, but mostly is group-regulated.
Opponent: Dude, why do you keep increasing your life total?
Oloro player: Ummm....no reason.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Personally, I find it cleaner to keep generals in the Zone revealed.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
If an Oloro player sits down to the table and gains 2 life during their upkeep they have revealed their general is Oloro. In such a meta that player would be at a disadvantage from their first turn which adequately balances the power of said general.
As for the PW emblems they appear from effects on the battlefield and would be placed in the CZ face up - nothing hidden there. Another non-issue.
There will be issues with unknown players trying to cheat, but when and if they win with out of color mana - well flip the general at the end and reveal them for the huckster they are.
It's an interesting variant and one I will explore with my playgroup, but I do see how it would be difficult to have it written into the game rules.
Cool idea OP!
Well, I still think the idea has some merit. When in any other format do you have fore-knowledge of what your opponent is playing?
The original Legend rule was "first one out wins". Any legend that arrives on the battlefield when one already exists is immediately buried. If two of the same legend enter the battlefield at the same time both are binned. This is in direct contrast with the World rule where the last Enchant World is the one that survives.
Then when they did Champions of Kamigawa they changed the Legend rule to the "legends as removal" rule. This was to make Champions block not just a race to see who gets Bomb legend #6 out first.
However, I think I have a solution that might work: everyone has to reveal their general when the game ends. Just like morph creatures you didn't use.